Ali v Marciano - The Computer Fight

[wildhawke11]

Rocky v Ali, the computer fight.

In 1969, Murry Woroner, a Miami promoter, approached Rocky and Muhammad Ali with a proposition. He wanted to film a fight between them, using a computer to decide the final outcome.
Ali had been stripped of his title and banned from boxing when he refused to be drafted into the army in 1967. Marciano was 46 years old and sixty pounds over his fighting weight.

Before he could climb into a ring again, even for a simulated fight, Rocky had to get into some semblance of what he had been. He began running again, working out in the gym, eating right; in truth, he trained as hard or harder than any fighter preparing for a real fight. The result was a loss of almost fifty pounds. To cover his balding head, he was fitted with a wig.

When Rocky went to the dingy gym on the North Side of Miami Beach he was thinking tough, expecting things to go smoothly but prepared for anything. He had been briefed, knew that the punches were to be pulled, and that it would not be a real fight. But Rocky wouldn't go into the ring that way. Even at forty-six, he had to feel that if something went wrong, if suddenly the punches became real, he would be ready to win."


The filming took place in a small gym on the North Side of Miami Beach. Only about 20 people were allowed inside the gym during the filming, which was kept as secret as possible. Behind the fighters was a black backdrop and no crowd of cheering spectators.

Though punches to the head were to be pulled, both men agreed body shots were not a problem. They filmed one minute rounds. Angelo Dundee was on hand as Ali's trainer, but Rocky had to use Mel Ziegler to play the role of Charlie Goldman, his real trainer. Charlie had passed away the year before. Ferdie Pacheco was the ring doctor.


During the filming, Rocky and Ali became friends, spending hours in conversation. Ali would later write that he became closer to Rocky than any other white fighter he ever knew.

Said Dundee of the affair: "Muhammad acquired a lot of respect for Rocky. He said Rocky was a lot harder to hit with a jab than it looked."

Stories came out of the sessions. Several claimed Rocky really hurt Ali with body shots, so that Muhammad climbed out of the ring and demanded extra money to continue. He was payed additional money. (Woroner himself said Ali took such a battering that he refused to continue until he was guaranteed an additional two thousand dollars.) I've talked to the son of one observer who says Rocky doubled Ali up with a body shot after Ali kept jabbing the wig off Rocky's head. Dundee admitted to the wig episode, but never told of the hard body shot that it led to. Ferdie Pacheco, however, the ring doctor in the film, claims Ali was dropped by a real body shot. The undeniable fact is, Rocky entered the ring ready to make a real fight of it if need be. Even Dundee said he had to be calmed down after the wig incident.
Here's the wig story as I've heard it from two sources:


Ali was dancing around jabbing and threw a high jab which just clipped Rocky's wig and knocked it off his head. The filming was stopped while the wig was refitted, amid bemused smiles from several of the observers. Marciano was embarrassed and angry.
He said, "He did that on purpose to make me look stupid. He doesn't have any respect for me at all."
Rocky was assured it was an accident and the filming resumed. However, Ali again jabbed high and sent the wig flying. Rocky was really mad this time, and snarled, "You better not do that again!"

They began once more and immediately Ali flicked the wig off Rocky's head. Without hesitation, Marciano dug a vicious body shot into Ali's midsection, doubling him over. Pacheco said Muhammad actually dropped to the floor and was completely helpless. Quickly Rocky was separated from Ali and Dundee related how they had to take a break until Rocky's temper cooled off. Marciano offered to turn it into a real fight then and there if Ali was game. Only when Ali apologised did the Rock get over his anger. Observers at the filming have said Ali's attitude was different from that point on, as it was obvious Marciano had come to fight if need be rather than be disrespected.

The result was kept secret from everyone, even Ali and Rocky. The promoter had to keep it secret to make his money when it would be shown in theatres. Five weeks after the filming, Rocky would die in the plane crash, Dundee said he thought the result was the accurate result as chosen by the computer, "It was done strictly by the computer. Nobody set the thing up."

On January 20th, 1970, the fight for the "All-time Heavyweight Championship" played in over six hundred locations around the country.
So how did it end?
In the 13th round, Rocky catches up with Ali and knocks him out, just as he had Walcott all those years before.

Sad to say Rocky never did know that he beat Ali if only on a computer as several different ending were filmed so as to prevent the true result leaking out

My own view is that Ali would have won say in 10 fights about 7 but Ali would need to be right on the ball and keep moving. There is no way Ali could have done a rope a dope with this guy or Rocky would have pounded his body without mercy. This guy never knew when he was beat and for once in his life Ali or Clay would have been in with a Man who had an even bigger heart then Ali himself and more stamina but common sense tells me that even though i admire Rocky for the guts he showed and his unbreakable will to win. That Ali for all his faults in my opinion was the Greatest Heavyweight of them All. and that would be a Bridge To Far for even Rocky Marciano to cross.

Hope you enjoyed
Danny

[erickdamac]

Hey i wonder what do they mean by computer fight? And that oes to show you how bnig his heart was he had the biggest heart out of any boxer. but i still think he would have lost against ali in about 9 due to cuts.

[JeffR]

Danny, I read somewhere that the Marciano-wins ending was shown in the U.S., but when the film was shown overseas one of the endings where Ali won on cuts was used. Do you know if there's any truth to that?

[erickdamac]

Two fighters Frazier is most unfavorably compared to are Jack Dempsey and Rocky Marciano. Who did they fight anywhere near the caliber of Ali or Foreman? How do we know how Dempsey and Marciano would have fared had they fought the Foreman of 1973-74? Don't be mislead that it is a foregone conclusion either one of them would have been victorious. Dempsey was knocked out in the 1st Round by Fireman Jim Flynn and knocked out of the ring by Luis Firpo. A left hook courtesy of 38-year old Jersey Joe Walcott dropped Marciano, and 40-something Light Heavyweight Champ Archie Moore put Rocky down. Is it a reach to say Dempsey and Marciano would have been stopped by the Foreman who made Frazier a former champ? Not one bit!

Over the years many blanket statements have been made diminishing Frazier's accomplishments because of the way he lost to Foreman. I have this to say to those who have admonished him. Foreman is not just another puncher. He came back and won the title at age 45 with a one-punch knockout.

Foreman throws arm punches and has knocked out fighters from 1969 through 1995. Boxing has never seen such a monstrosity, before him or since. Dempsey, Marciano. Holmes, Tyson and Holyfield have never shared a ring with a fighter who is in the same zip code as Foreman in punching power. Holyfield barely survived his fight with him when he was 42.

After thoroughly and objectively reviewing Frazier's career, it is abundantly clear that to beat him you had to be a great fighter. Two fighters can claim victory over Frazier, George Foreman, the most powerful heavyweight in the last hundred years and maybe ever, and Muhammad Ali, the most skilled and widely accepted as the greatest heavyweight ever. Ali is a legend today because of his victory over Foreman. You can't have it both ways.

Frank Lotierzo hosts "Toe to Toe," a talk radio sports show on ESPN Radio 1490
something i read.

[wildhawke11]

Jeff and Eric
As far as i know there was only one showing done and that was in USA. That was the true result as Dundee himself confirmed. Heard rumours a version being shown in UK where i have resided for years was put out, but unlike the original fight in which Marciano prevailed no evidence of a different version has been found to be proved, at least not to my knowledge.

I could have told you a little more, Ali a few years later said on TV that he was very impressed at the strength and stamina that a 46 year old long retired Rocky displayed during the filming and admitted to Costell during an interview that in fact Marciano might have indeed as he so well put it
"give me a whupping" This of course was related to me by a good friend i had who lives in USA.

They at times called Frazier "The Black Marciano" both pressure fighters, both could hit, Frazier the faster, and of course that great left hook that Joe had in his favour. I feel a peak Frazier at any stage in Ali`s career would have presented problems for Ali. My reasoning being although the young Clay was faster he did not have the know-how and experience that the later as near as peak Ali had. Although we seem to feel that Clay in fact was better, Ali himself said he thought that Clay would have lost to the older Ali.
So this in turn bears out my own thoughts.

By comparison Mariciano although not as fast threw bone breaking punches all the time, and unlike Frazier they came from both sides.
So of course its not out of the question that Rocky might have indeed done the job. You only have to look back at fights that shocked us All. So many
opponents admitted that there arms had been numb from the power of the Rocks blows.

I myself see Ali taking the early rounds, but unlike in a lot of his fights
being unable to relax and take a breather to conserve his stamina. With Marciano coming at Ali all the time i feel Ali would be hard pushed and look uncomfortable at times as he would not be able to control this fight as he did so many. But then about the 7th round or so the inevitable would happen and Marciano would cut. This would infuriate an enraged Rock who i think would go for the kill and even win the next couple of round. Then of course the consistent jabbing of Ali in his attempts to keep Marciano off him would really open the cuts and in the 10th maybe the ref would be forced to step in and stop it much to Marciano`s anger.

In the after fight interview once Ali had calmed down. I think he would have admitted that Rocky was indeed a force to be reckoned with and shower full praise on the gallant Marciano.

Marciano by reply would like he always did praise Ali and make no excuses and say "i gave it all i had, at times i thought i had him, but he proved me wrong"

Imagine Them fighting today and in there peak wonder what sort of money we would be talking.
Thanks For showing an interest Gentleman although at times i often wonder if i bore you with some of my story's from the past.
Danny

Ps So Eric you had it about right i feel

[Cap]

First of all. There was no real computer involved. It was just a bunch of rounds filmed for later showing. I've heard over the years that several different endings were filmed, and the ending shown depended on the audience. Most middle-aged white guys wanted to see Ali lose, so that was the most popular outcome.

Cap

[wildhawke11]

Originally posted by Cap
First of all. There was no real computer involved. It was just a bunch of rounds filmed for later showing. I've heard over the years that several different endings were filmed, and the ending shown depended on the audience. Most middle-aged white guys wanted to see Ali lose, so that was the most popular outcome.

Cap

No computer involved !!!!!!
Well i have to say thats a very BOLD statement to make Cap.
May i ask where you obtained this information from, if that is possable.

Yes my friend did inform me that different endings were filmed but that was to prevent the real ending being leaked out.
News to me anyway.

[BrocktonBlockBuster]

If Marciano and Ali were to fight. I say Marciano would have won for sure. Ali's mouth would seal his fate. Rocky was a punching machine. Pre-fight I see Ali trash talking about Marciano. The result would be an unstoppable Marciano. I don't see Ali being able to hurt him. Walcott and Moore were both good punchers. If I'm not mistaken? Archie Moore himself had well over 100 knockouts. True Marciano never seen the likes of an Ali. However,Ali never saw the likes of a Marciano. It's Painfully obvious to me those who put down Marciano are either ignorant about him or the sport of boxing itself.

[BrocktonBlockBuster]

By the way thanks for posting that story Wildhawke.

[erickdamac]

LOL LOL

Ok i can tell your a rocky fan by your name (duh) But to say that ali never fought someon like rocky marciano is insane!
What about joe frazier ( a better version of rocky marciano)d o you really beleive rocky can bob and weave like joe or like mike tyson? by the end of the fight rocky would have so many cuts he would have had to retire! lets be honest here he gets cut easy! Cant realy bob and weave! Ali would had kept that jab in his face til his eyes was the size of oranges and then right cross left cross ROCKY GOES DOWN! Do you think rocky can beat forman? I dont think so. rocky era was a weak time. People from the 20's was retiring, and people from the 30's was getting old. and the young breed was just coming about before he retired.

And you keep bringing up archie moore, archie moore was a light heaveyweight, that moved up to heaveyweight to fight rocky ( At the age of 45) and he still knocked rocky down in the fight. rocky was not a great fighter he was a "above good" fighter in a bad era! If he fought in the mid 60's to late 70's he would be another jerry quarry ( another great white hope) And thats the truth.

[erickdamac]

Anybody know if tittle fight 2001 (which im getting tommrow should be here thats what jim said) do anyone know if you can move up and down the weight class because i want to be roy jones and im wondering if i can be middle weight champion and heaveyweight champion? at the same time . and can someone tell me what patches i have to get so my game will be perfect its suppose to be here later today. if people can tell what to get to improve the game (people was so down on it) then that will be a big help. any thing that will improve and make it the bestgame possible thanks. And if you can move up and down the weight classes. if i was a heaveyweight could i ight a 154 pound fighter? like roy jones against mayorga?

[erickdamac]

Oh and thanks wild For saying i was right.

[BrocktonBlockBuster]

Yes you can move fighters up and down weight classes Eric. Eric,Ali himself in an interview with Howard Cosell said Marciano was better than Joe Frazier.

[erickdamac]

Ali was simply showing respect to someone who died like 6 months before the interveiw.

[SBoyce]

Frazier Vs Marciano. That would be a fight and a half. Very similar fighters with great power, questionable defense and big hearts. The major difference I see is in the chins. Let's face it, these two guys wouldn't box each other. They would walk out into the center and slug away until someone fell. Looking at thier history, I would bet on Frazier being the one to go down. I think Marciano would handle the punishment better than Frazier. That would be a great fight though.

[crusadecat]

How many people have seen the movie from this message group just curious?

[SBoyce]

I've seen some of it. The stories behind the film are more interesting than the film itself. It wasn't all that realistic looking in my opinion.

[Mark42661]

Originally posted by SBoyce
Frazier Vs Marciano. That would be a fight and a half. Very similar fighters with great power, questionable defense and big hearts. The major difference I see is in the chins. Let's face it, these two guys wouldn't box each other. They would walk out into the center and slug away until someone fell. Looking at thier history, I would bet on Frazier being the one to go down. I think Marciano would handle the punishment better than Frazier. That would be a great fight though.

SBoyce,

I think that's a great assessment. Another major difference between Marciano and Frazier, though, is that Marciano hit very hard with both hands. Frazier's right hand was very average. One boxing commentator (can't remember which one) said that Frazier's right hand was little more than a "parrying tool" to set up his left. Frazier also tended to swell in the face alot more than Marciano did. With Marciano's style, he obviosly got hit alot, but if you watch his fights, he never had a problem with swelling. Because of these reasons and from what you said, I would put my money on Marciano to stop Frazier somewhere in the late rounds.

[wildhawke11]

Frazier was A Great Fighter
Marciano was to
They would need a Big Stadium for this One

Marciano yes, he carried power from both sides. So in a War Rocky taking it by TKO.
But what a Fight it would be.

[erickdamac]

i would have to say frazier. because he has a better chin ( i dont even count forman he is a damn beast)and he is more faster. ad most of all he moves his HEAD!!1 i say frazier in 13.