triples in v.5 - bug?

obaslg · 07-16-2003, 10:43 PM

Don't know if this has already been noticed...

We're finishing up our first year using v.5, and the triples results don't match the ratings at all - in fact, it almost seems reversed.

Here are this year's leaders, with this year's #/last year's #/
rating:
14/1/2
14/10/6
13/*/4 (rookie)
13/1/2

Three players in the top 10 have a 2 rating, and three others have a 4.

I checked the players I know have great triples ratings, and they're doing terribly. Here are the same numbers for some of them:
2/20/13
1/19/11
1/18/14
4/12/11
5/10/13

This HAS to be a bug, right?

Steve Kuffrey · 07-16-2003, 10:46 PM

If you recall Markus changed the way that triples work, they are less tied to ratings as they are to speed so that you don't get guys w/ E speed hitting 15 triples.

obaslg · 07-17-2003, 12:39 AM

Ah...never saw that. That's much more sensible - if I had only known before I traded for my 14-rated guy. Thanks for the quick answer, as always.

Steve Kuffrey · 07-17-2003, 12:49 AM

Not a problem.

crackpott · 07-17-2003, 06:06 AM

curiosity...

then why is there still a triples rating? Really triples are just doubles hit by fast guys. (Or occasionally, a ball that would ordinarily be a double going to some stupid part of a ballpark or when an outfielder messes up... those are when the slow guys capitalize.

)

Regardless, there's really no ability to hit triples.

Sudy Nym · 07-17-2003, 06:16 AM

If I recall correctly, the triples rating still comes into play in historical replays, or something- I'm not entirely sure, as the game's historical features aren't something that I pay much attention to. But I remember something similar being said.

Anyway, I wholeheartedly wish that the triples rating "disappeared" when not in use- it's misleading. Honestly, I don't have a huge problem with triples being derived from a rating- the rating should just be linked to speed. True, there's no such thing as a triple-hitting "skill"- but then, is there really a "doubles" skill? I think the only thing that really separates a double from a single is location and power- and a triple is identical, except you add the element of speed. So what we're really looking at is an inside-the-park power rating.

CBL-Commish · 07-17-2003, 09:45 AM

The problem here is that in other eras triples were one of the main results of having power. Sam Crawford was fast, but I'm pretty sure he hit 312 career triples because he had big-time power but played with a dead ball in parks that were close to 500 ft in spots.

My fictional Continental League has several parks with deadball-type dimensions. The triple rating is great because it allows the big, none-too-fast sluggers to get a bunch of triples in the big parks.

draven085 · 07-17-2003, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CBL-Commish
My fictional Continental League has several parks with deadball-type dimensions. The triple rating is great because it allows the big, none-too-fast sluggers to get a bunch of triples in the big parks.

I understand your point here, but couldn't the same thing be achieved by adjsuting league totals and/or park factors? Park dimensions are putely cosmetic as I understand it.

CBL-Commish · 07-17-2003, 10:02 AM

But that would effect everyone the same amount, so if I made the park with a huge triples factor then all the really fast guys would hit a massive number of triples, while the slower power guys would hit a couple more. In reality (and this is partially a whole different issue), a 500-ft fence would mean say, Eric Karros, would hit 15 triples a year but Tom Goodwin would have 10 inside-the-park homers but maybe the same number of triples as Karros.

matskralc · 07-17-2003, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sudy Nym

True, there's no such thing as a triple-hitting "skill"- but then, is there really a "doubles" skill?

I think there is. "Gap power", so to speak. You have singles hitters, who slap everything in front of the outfielders, and guys who can drive the ball to the gaps. I think triples should be derived from gap power and speed. That way, guys like Otis Nixon, who was ridiculously fast but had NO gap power at all, doesn't hit 15 triples a year. (His career high was 6, and he never had more than 3 any other year...his 162 game average for doubles was 12.)

But yeah, a triples rating is silly. Rename the doubles rating "gap power", and derive triples from a combination of that and speed.

Sudy Nym · 07-17-2003, 03:23 PM

I totally agree with you- that's more-or-less what I meant by "inside-the-park power"- I just couldn't think of a better way to put it, last night. There's obviously an ability that separates singles from doubles, though I still wouldn't call it a "skill." But I think we're on the same page.

Singles should be the result of average (plus a tiny bit of speed), doubles the result of average combined with "gap power" (plus a slightly larger, though still very small amount of speed), triples (and the rare inside the park HR) the result of average and gap power plus a very large amount of speed, and finally, HRs the result of average and "raw power", AKA HR hitting ability.

Simple, but I think it would make the most sense this way. And of course, all these things are already based upon average. But as far as I know, speed has nothing to do with singles or doubles (not that it should, much), and triples are sort of "tacked on" to doubles, instead of being directly derived from them.

WLight · 07-17-2003, 05:42 PM

Anybody have any info as to whether handedness of the batter influences triples in OOTP like it does in real life?

Sudy Nym · 07-17-2003, 06:24 PM

How does this do so in real life other than when it comes to differences is stadium dimensions? I'm not saying that I doubt you, but the concept is new to me.

WLight · 07-17-2003, 07:14 PM

I was reading some article about it a few weeks ago. Historically lefties hit way more triples than righties. I think it was concluded that the main reason is because lefties hit more balls down the rightfield line and it's easier to get to third when the ball is in right than when it's in left. For fairly obvious reasons. But until I read the article I had never thought of it before. I'll see if I can find that article again and edit it into my post.

Edit: Well, that was fast. I was pretty sure it was a Neyer column, and it turns out I was right. Memory failed me, though, in that it wasn't actually a column about triples but a column about Rickey Henderson in which Neyer addresses the handedness quirk of triples-hitting. Here it is. And in case you're interested by that column, here's the followup as well.

Sudy Nym · 07-17-2003, 07:21 PM

I guess that makes sense. I never really considered that, either.

Heem Dream · 07-18-2003, 07:32 PM

I guess this is related to the question of whether this is a ratings based game or not.
Ratings like power, batspeed, hitting style would make a difference.

Still a great game though.

07-16-2003, 10:43 PM	#1
obaslg All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 887	triples in v.5 - bug? Don't know if this has already been noticed... We're finishing up our first year using v.5, and the triples results don't match the ratings at all - in fact, it almost seems reversed. Here are this year's leaders, with this year's #/last year's #/ rating: 14/1/2 14/10/6 13/*/4 (rookie) 13/1/2 Three players in the top 10 have a 2 rating, and three others have a 4. I checked the players I know have great triples ratings, and they're doing terribly. Here are the same numbers for some of them: 2/20/13 1/19/11 1/18/14 4/12/11 5/10/13 This HAS to be a bug, right?

07-16-2003, 10:46 PM	#2
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,023	If you recall Markus changed the way that triples work, they are less tied to ratings as they are to speed so that you don't get guys w/ E speed hitting 15 triples. __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

07-17-2003, 12:39 AM	#3
obaslg All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 887	Ah...never saw that. That's much more sensible - if I had only known before I traded for my 14-rated guy. Thanks for the quick answer, as always. __________________ Realy good musition of many insterments, including the hyperbolic vitriol.

07-17-2003, 12:49 AM	#4
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,023	Not a problem. __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

07-17-2003, 06:06 AM	#5
crackpott Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,961	curiosity... then why is there still a triples rating? Really triples are just doubles hit by fast guys. (Or occasionally, a ball that would ordinarily be a double going to some stupid part of a ballpark or when an outfielder messes up... those are when the slow guys capitalize. ) Regardless, there's really no ability to hit triples. __________________ Abandoned Planet - Check it out. The photos don't suck anymore.

07-17-2003, 06:16 AM	#6
Sudy Nym Major Leagues Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Hill, ON Posts: 492	If I recall correctly, the triples rating still comes into play in historical replays, or something- I'm not entirely sure, as the game's historical features aren't something that I pay much attention to. But I remember something similar being said. Anyway, I wholeheartedly wish that the triples rating "disappeared" when not in use- it's misleading. Honestly, I don't have a huge problem with triples being derived from a rating- the rating should just be linked to speed. True, there's no such thing as a triple-hitting "skill"- but then, is there really a "doubles" skill? I think the only thing that really separates a double from a single is location and power- and a triple is identical, except you add the element of speed. So what we're really looking at is an inside-the-park power rating. __________________ Tomorrow's Stars Today Baseball League - Portland Beavers <=> WL Wild Card: '11, '14 <=> WL North Divisional Champions: '02, '04-'10, '12, '13, '15-'18 <=> Western League Champions: '04-'06, '09, '10, '13, '18 <=> TSTBL World Champions: 2004, 2006, 2009, 2018

07-17-2003, 09:45 AM	#7
CBL-Commish All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,999	The problem here is that in other eras triples were one of the main results of having power. Sam Crawford was fast, but I'm pretty sure he hit 312 career triples because he had big-time power but played with a dead ball in parks that were close to 500 ft in spots. My fictional Continental League has several parks with deadball-type dimensions. The triple rating is great because it allows the big, none-too-fast sluggers to get a bunch of triples in the big parks. __________________ For the best in O's news: Orioles' Hangout.com

07-17-2003, 10:02 AM	#9
CBL-Commish All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,999	But that would effect everyone the same amount, so if I made the park with a huge triples factor then all the really fast guys would hit a massive number of triples, while the slower power guys would hit a couple more. In reality (and this is partially a whole different issue), a 500-ft fence would mean say, Eric Karros, would hit 15 triples a year but Tom Goodwin would have 10 inside-the-park homers but maybe the same number of triples as Karros. __________________ For the best in O's news: Orioles' Hangout.com

07-17-2003, 03:23 PM	#11
Sudy Nym Major Leagues Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Hill, ON Posts: 492	I totally agree with you- that's more-or-less what I meant by "inside-the-park power"- I just couldn't think of a better way to put it, last night. There's obviously an ability that separates singles from doubles, though I still wouldn't call it a "skill." But I think we're on the same page. Singles should be the result of average (plus a tiny bit of speed), doubles the result of average combined with "gap power" (plus a slightly larger, though still very small amount of speed), triples (and the rare inside the park HR) the result of average and gap power plus a very large amount of speed, and finally, HRs the result of average and "raw power", AKA HR hitting ability. Simple, but I think it would make the most sense this way. And of course, all these things are already based upon average. But as far as I know, speed has nothing to do with singles or doubles (not that it should, much), and triples are sort of "tacked on" to doubles, instead of being directly derived from them. __________________ Tomorrow's Stars Today Baseball League - Portland Beavers <=> WL Wild Card: '11, '14 <=> WL North Divisional Champions: '02, '04-'10, '12, '13, '15-'18 <=> Western League Champions: '04-'06, '09, '10, '13, '18 <=> TSTBL World Champions: 2004, 2006, 2009, 2018

07-17-2003, 05:42 PM	#12
WLight Major Leagues Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: CA Posts: 314	Anybody have any info as to whether handedness of the batter influences triples in OOTP like it does in real life?

07-17-2003, 06:24 PM	#13
Sudy Nym Major Leagues Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Hill, ON Posts: 492	How does this do so in real life other than when it comes to differences is stadium dimensions? I'm not saying that I doubt you, but the concept is new to me. __________________ Tomorrow's Stars Today Baseball League - Portland Beavers <=> WL Wild Card: '11, '14 <=> WL North Divisional Champions: '02, '04-'10, '12, '13, '15-'18 <=> Western League Champions: '04-'06, '09, '10, '13, '18 <=> TSTBL World Champions: 2004, 2006, 2009, 2018

07-17-2003, 07:14 PM	#14
WLight Major Leagues Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: CA Posts: 314	I was reading some article about it a few weeks ago. Historically lefties hit way more triples than righties. I think it was concluded that the main reason is because lefties hit more balls down the rightfield line and it's easier to get to third when the ball is in right than when it's in left. For fairly obvious reasons. But until I read the article I had never thought of it before. I'll see if I can find that article again and edit it into my post. Edit: Well, that was fast. I was pretty sure it was a Neyer column, and it turns out I was right. Memory failed me, though, in that it wasn't actually a column about triples but a column about Rickey Henderson in which Neyer addresses the handedness quirk of triples-hitting. Here it is. And in case you're interested by that column, here's the followup as well. Last edited by WLight; 07-17-2003 at 07:25 PM.

07-17-2003, 07:21 PM	#15
Sudy Nym Major Leagues Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Richmond Hill, ON Posts: 492	I guess that makes sense. I never really considered that, either. __________________ Tomorrow's Stars Today Baseball League - Portland Beavers <=> WL Wild Card: '11, '14 <=> WL North Divisional Champions: '02, '04-'10, '12, '13, '15-'18 <=> Western League Champions: '04-'06, '09, '10, '13, '18 <=> TSTBL World Champions: 2004, 2006, 2009, 2018

07-18-2003, 07:32 PM	#16
Heem Dream Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 38	I guess this is related to the question of whether this is a ratings based game or not. Ratings like power, batspeed, hitting style would make a difference. Still a great game though. __________________ "I am known as "CAT" in the BBpro Universe" <i>not that it matters</i> <a href="http://catspitz.net/index.php">CAT'S BBPRO 98 UNIVERSE</a> <b>I played BBpro98 exclusively as long as I could, I guess I was just stubborn!!</b>