Dumb Lineups...

BillyMadison · 07-04-2003, 11:34 AM

Why is Moises Alou batting 1st?

John C · 07-04-2003, 11:37 AM

Because the game doesn't notice names, so it doesn't know Alou from you. It notices ratings.

Perhaps Alou gets on base a lot. That would be your answer.

-John

TheRockCT · 07-04-2003, 11:48 AM

Because if your running with a real roster set, the Cubs are very weak in the leadoff spot. Being a guy that can get on base, hits for average, and with decent speed, the game generates Alou as the best choice for the leadoff hitter. The CPU isn't Dusty Baker, it doesn't understand that Alou usually hits in the 3-5 spots. You can't expect the game to recognize those names and place them in spots that real-life managers do. It's only trying to set up a lineup that will field a competitive team - if you don't like that, I suggest starting a fictional league so that names don't influence your thoughts, or taking control of all the teams so that you can manage them the way you want, specifically.

Steve Kuffrey · 07-04-2003, 12:04 PM

Why is Adam Dunn sometimes batting first?

Sweed · 07-04-2003, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve Kuffrey
Why is Adam Dunn sometimes batting first?

because ootp makes stupid lineups, oh wait a minute that's real life isn't it

HackySax · 07-04-2003, 03:43 PM

It is hard to understand why you hit a .212 hitter with 25+ hrs in the leadoff spot...my guess, boost his confidence...

Larry Mahnken · 07-04-2003, 08:40 PM

Well, even with his lousy BA, his OBP is still over .350. Kearns and his .370 OBP and much lower ISO would probably be a better fit, though.

mtw · 07-04-2003, 09:11 PM

Despite anecdotes to the contrary and without regard to names, restricting focus to ratings OOTP still needs work on figuring out how to distinguish between guys that should be batting 1st, 2nd and 5th--spots that seem to be interchangeable for the AI. There are 2 or 3 AI lineups every season in my relatively small 16-team league that feature prototypical leadoff hitters (players with high OBP ratings (hits and walks), low power ratings and good speed and steal ratings) batting 5th while a prototypical #3-5 type power hitter bats 1st. Also, the AI seems to heavily favor sacrifice bunting for the #2 spot over more practical considerations such as OBP and speed.

While simply asking "Why is Moises Alou batting 1st?" may not be the best way of presenting the issue, neither is "Why is Adam Dunn sometimes batting first?" justification in a game that lacks managerial "personalities." The issue exists and is in need of resolution and has been for the three versions I've played.

Steve Kuffrey · 07-04-2003, 10:24 PM

Without turning this into a long thread on the topic I merely mentioned a real-life example of a player batting in an unusual spot in the order. Certainly the logic needs some adjustments, but as in many issues you are never going to get all lineups for all teams that we would all agree on. No excuse, just fact and this is a topic that the beta team as well as the entire community have had many, many discussions on. For more indepth reading I would suggest trying a board seach.

brimick78 · 07-05-2003, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HackySax
It is hard to understand why you hit a .212 hitter with 25+ hrs in the leadoff spot...my guess, boost his confidence...

He's batting about .170 with men in scoring position, that may have contributed to that decision.

Plutoro · 07-05-2003, 08:56 AM

They way I would set the AI lineup selecter thingy is basically it picks 3-5 first...then leadoff... then the 6 hitter...then the 2 hitter (2 so late because they use him to bunt so much) then 7-8-9.

That way a guy like Alou would always be batting 5 or so while players like ichiro wont be batting 3rd.

Also maybe emphasize the power rating more then it does when picking those 3-4-5 guys

seth70liz76 · 07-05-2003, 12:49 PM

I myself I stated (in other places) that OOTP is a great place to break away from conventional ideas about lineups and strategy. Back in the 90's, I thought Mark Grace would have been the perfect lead off hitter--high OBP, lots of doubles (so he is in scoring position), smart-not-fast baserunner. Hell, I think Frank Thomas has value as N0.2 hitter.

Crabster · 07-05-2003, 02:13 PM

I was up against the Astros and they had Bagwell on a cold streak, leading off...
Hmmmm

mtw · 07-05-2003, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seth70liz76
I myself I stated (in other places) that OOTP is a great place to break away from conventional ideas about lineups and strategy. Back in the 90's, I thought Mark Grace would have been the perfect lead off hitter--high OBP, lots of doubles (so he is in scoring position), smart-not-fast baserunner. Hell, I think Frank Thomas has value as N0.2 hitter.

I'm all for alternative lineups, in the form of managerial personalities, but I'd first like to see the traditional lineup, which is still the norm, perfected (or as close to it as possible).

Falcon52 · 07-06-2003, 12:34 AM

What criteria does the OOTP engine base its lineup decisions on when filling out a batting order? For instance, does it look for high BB and hits ratings for the leadoff? Does it look for BB and speed?

Just kind of curious, because alot of times, it puts guys with ratings you'd think were better off in other spots at leadoff and so on. I realize the game doesn't recognize Jeff Bagwell or Frank Thomas or Moises Alou, but shouldn't it recognize "Bagwell-like" players? In that, I mean a player with ratings that represent what you'd want in your 3 or 4 spot.

For example, a Bagwell-type player would have high HR and probably decent BB ratings. The AI should be able to see that because of it, that criteria fits better as a 3rd batter.

Just my 2 cents

JimboJones · 07-06-2003, 08:41 AM

One thing I've noticed is sometimes you'll see a guy with 2 or 3 ratings in all the hitting categories batting 3rd in the lineup. I think what happens is when the computer decides its time to rest it's #3 hitter, it just plugs the backup player right into the same spot in the lineup. If this is wrong, then please correct me. If I'm right, then the computer needs to reorder its lineup based on substitutions.

07-04-2003, 11:34 AM	#1
BillyMadison Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 103	Dumb Lineups... Why is Moises Alou batting 1st?

07-04-2003, 12:04 PM	#4
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,036	Why is Adam Dunn sometimes batting first? __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

07-04-2003, 03:43 PM	#6
HackySax Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 20	It is hard to understand why you hit a .212 hitter with 25+ hrs in the leadoff spot...my guess, boost his confidence... __________________ ~HackySax --- There is life after baseball, it just isnt as fulfilling!

07-04-2003, 09:11 PM	#8
mtw All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 653	Despite anecdotes to the contrary and without regard to names, restricting focus to ratings OOTP still needs work on figuring out how to distinguish between guys that should be batting 1st, 2nd and 5th--spots that seem to be interchangeable for the AI. There are 2 or 3 AI lineups every season in my relatively small 16-team league that feature prototypical leadoff hitters (players with high OBP ratings (hits and walks), low power ratings and good speed and steal ratings) batting 5th while a prototypical #3-5 type power hitter bats 1st. Also, the AI seems to heavily favor sacrifice bunting for the #2 spot over more practical considerations such as OBP and speed. While simply asking "Why is Moises Alou batting 1st?" may not be the best way of presenting the issue, neither is "Why is Adam Dunn sometimes batting first?" justification in a game that lacks managerial "personalities." The issue exists and is in need of resolution and has been for the three versions I've played. __________________ Over-Zealous Apologist

07-04-2003, 10:24 PM	#9
Steve Kuffrey Administrator Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: S.E. TN - Georgia born and raised Posts: 17,036	Without turning this into a long thread on the topic I merely mentioned a real-life example of a player batting in an unusual spot in the order. Certainly the logic needs some adjustments, but as in many issues you are never going to get all lineups for all teams that we would all agree on. No excuse, just fact and this is a topic that the beta team as well as the entire community have had many, many discussions on. For more indepth reading I would suggest trying a board seach. __________________ Steve Kuffrey DABS Atlanta Braves - 2008 Eastern Division Champ *DBLC Atlanta Braves - 2011, 2014 East Division Champ, 2012, 2013 NL Wildcard Baseball Maelstrom-Montreal Expos-2013 Tourney winner, 2014 WC Team Sparky's League - Tampa Bay D'Rays Epicenter Baseball League - Astros 2014 The CBL Rewind - Phillies '95

07-04-2003, 11:37 AM	#2
John C Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Albion, RI Posts: 2,286 Infractions: 1/0 (0)	Because the game doesn't notice names, so it doesn't know Alou from you. It notices ratings. Perhaps Alou gets on base a lot. That would be your answer. -John __________________ Facebook \| My Videos

07-04-2003, 11:48 AM	#3
TheRockCT All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: TN Posts: 1,083	Because if your running with a real roster set, the Cubs are very weak in the leadoff spot. Being a guy that can get on base, hits for average, and with decent speed, the game generates Alou as the best choice for the leadoff hitter. The CPU isn't Dusty Baker, it doesn't understand that Alou usually hits in the 3-5 spots. You can't expect the game to recognize those names and place them in spots that real-life managers do. It's only trying to set up a lineup that will field a competitive team - if you don't like that, I suggest starting a fictional league so that names don't influence your thoughts, or taking control of all the teams so that you can manage them the way you want, specifically. __________________ GM, Vermont Emperor Penguins - POTD POTD Champions: 2011, 2012, 2013 GM, Monterrey Aztecs* - NABA *NABA Champions: 2013

07-04-2003, 08:40 PM	#7
Larry Mahnken Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: York, PA Posts: 56	Well, even with his lousy BA, his OBP is still over .350. Kearns and his .370 OBP and much lower ISO would probably be a better fit, though.

07-05-2003, 08:56 AM	#11
Plutoro Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 276	They way I would set the AI lineup selecter thingy is basically it picks 3-5 first...then leadoff... then the 6 hitter...then the 2 hitter (2 so late because they use him to bunt so much) then 7-8-9. That way a guy like Alou would always be batting 5 or so while players like ichiro wont be batting 3rd. Also maybe emphasize the power rating more then it does when picking those 3-4-5 guys __________________ SMLB-San Diego Padres: Pre-season 2003, currently rebuilding (year 1 of 5). 15-22 now, Klesko and Burroughs are hot each hitting .325 plus, Bartosh and Keisler both making strong cases for RoY in the early season.

07-05-2003, 12:49 PM	#12
seth70liz76 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1,634	I myself I stated (in other places) that OOTP is a great place to break away from conventional ideas about lineups and strategy. Back in the 90's, I thought Mark Grace would have been the perfect lead off hitter--high OBP, lots of doubles (so he is in scoring position), smart-not-fast baserunner. Hell, I think Frank Thomas has value as N0.2 hitter. __________________ It was a mistake to come back.

07-05-2003, 02:13 PM	#13
Crabster Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Blackpool, England (Northwest) Posts: 229	I was up against the Astros and they had Bagwell on a cold streak, leading off... Hmmmm

07-06-2003, 12:34 AM	#15
Falcon52 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 615	What criteria does the OOTP engine base its lineup decisions on when filling out a batting order? For instance, does it look for high BB and hits ratings for the leadoff? Does it look for BB and speed? Just kind of curious, because alot of times, it puts guys with ratings you'd think were better off in other spots at leadoff and so on. I realize the game doesn't recognize Jeff Bagwell or Frank Thomas or Moises Alou, but shouldn't it recognize "Bagwell-like" players? In that, I mean a player with ratings that represent what you'd want in your 3 or 4 spot. For example, a Bagwell-type player would have high HR and probably decent BB ratings. The AI should be able to see that because of it, that criteria fits better as a 3rd batter. Just my 2 cents __________________ "D-FENCE! D-FENCE!"

07-06-2003, 08:41 AM	#16
JimboJones Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 210	One thing I've noticed is sometimes you'll see a guy with 2 or 3 ratings in all the hitting categories batting 3rd in the lineup. I think what happens is when the computer decides its time to rest it's #3 hitter, it just plugs the backup player right into the same spot in the lineup. If this is wrong, then please correct me. If I'm right, then the computer needs to reorder its lineup based on substitutions.