Ideas/Explanation for Defensive Performance (Zone Rating)

['94 EXPOS]

Hey all,

I have a young 2nd/3rd base who came up on the hot corner but developed well as a 2nd base towards the end of his development (22 yrs).

His ratings for Range/Error/Arm are all 60 and his DP rating is 55.

When looking at his fielding stats his Zone Rating at 2nd is an abysmal -11.1

The year prior his ZR was -1.1

His Range Factor for both years is well above 4

I can think of a couple of 'real life' reasons why a zone rating may be a little off but this is surprisingly extreme. Having watched and played way too much baseball during my life I am a little skeptical of defensive metrics at times when compared to the eye test (I understand the difference between ZR and UZR - UZR would be difficult for OOTP I imagine to simulate). But in order for OOTP to function and differentiate between defensive abilities there obviously has to be a reliance on measurables (I have never relied on the eye test for computer programming but I imagine it might be a tad boring and probably wouldn't result in much learning be accomplished lol!).

Just curious for input or explanations?

[Sweed]

Here is a thread from v25 that I found quite helpful in giving me a better understanding of fielding. https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=358875
After reading that last year I came away looking at Efficiency first which is kept track of by position (at least with high detailed stat tracking). Next I look at the player's BIZ made play percentage by position played. How many "even" balls do they field and then expand up and down the scale to other made plays to try to get an understanding of a player's range ability.

I pretty much only give ZR a glance and don't base much on it. Perhaps that is a mistake on my part? IDK. I find Efficiency (outs relative to league avg) and BIZ (% of balls fielded per zone) stats easy to understand and use to get a picture of my players. I'm never quite sure how to understand/value ZR in OOTP. Again maybe I'm missing the boat by not using ZR? Sorry with my lack of understanding ZR in OOTP I'm not answering or opining on your specific situation. My hope is you find some value in the linked thread.

['94 EXPOS]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Here is a thread from v25 that I found quite helpful in giving me a better understanding of fielding. https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=358875
After reading that last year I came away looking at Efficiency first which is kept track of by position (at least with high detailed stat tracking). Next I look at the player's BIZ made play percentage by position played. How many "even" balls do they field and then expand up and down the scale to other made plays to try to get an understanding of a player's range ability.

I pretty much only give ZR a glance and don't base much on it. Perhaps that is a mistake on my part? IDK. I find Efficiency (outs relative to league avg) and BIZ (% of balls fielded per zone) stats easy to understand and use to get a picture of my players. I'm never quite sure how to understand/value ZR in OOTP. Again maybe I'm missing the boat by not using ZR? Sorry with my lack of understanding ZR in OOTP I'm not answering or opining on your specific situation. My hope is you find some value in the linked thread.

Thx! Appreciate the link - def gives me a better understanding of how to evaluate D within the game. Zone Rating is a bit convoluted at the best of times anyways. And I did not know how simplistic the Range Factor stat is - does not appear to be all that useful. Ultimately, EFF seems to give the best overall value and you can tinker from there.

When looking at my player, I believe his core ratings (arm, range etc) are based on him coming up at 3rd base or at least that's how I am going to interpret it. He does have a sound overall rating for 2nd base yet all his metrics indicate otherwise.

I am a little stuck with him because my other 3rd base is ok on D but MVP with the stick. And I have two 1B who are very strong hitters.

I will be watching my 2nd base guy closely for any offensive drop off since it appears his D is quite limited despite the favourable shiny outer ratings.

['94 EXPOS]

I also like the BIZ explanation in the link I should add

[Matt Arnold]

Zone Rating is balanced relative to the league. So one plausible case for a player having a negative zone rating despite positive stats is if the league as a whole is using better players. If too many teams have converted SS playing 2B, then he could show a bad ZR despite not actually playing that poorly.

Another possibly is simply the fact that defensive stats are very volatile. In 2022 Bo Bichette was a -16 fielder, but the year before and after he was +3 and +4. Dansby Swanson in 2021 was a -5 fielder, but the year before was +9 (in half a season), and every year since then has put up solid numbers.

-11 is bad, and 10 points different between seasons is a gap in fielding values. But it's not so wide that it could possibly just be some tough luck.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by '94 EXPOS

Thx! Appreciate the link - def gives me a better understanding of how to evaluate D within the game. Zone Rating is a bit convoluted at the best of times anyways. And I did not know how simplistic the Range Factor stat is - does not appear to be all that useful. Ultimately, EFF seems to give the best overall value and you can tinker from there.

When looking at my player, I believe his core ratings (arm, range etc) are based on him coming up at 3rd base or at least that's how I am going to interpret it. He does have a sound overall rating for 2nd base yet all his metrics indicate otherwise.

I am a little stuck with him because my other 3rd base is ok on D but MVP with the stick. And I have two 1B who are very strong hitters.

I will be watching my 2nd base guy closely for any offensive drop off since it appears his D is quite limited despite the favourable shiny outer ratings.

Originally Posted by '94 EXPOS

I also like the BIZ explanation in the link I should add

Glad to hear it helped. Before that discussion I was very much back and forth on what to look at to evaluate my fielders.

My understanding is the player's infield arm, range etc. are based simply on infield and has nothing to do with whatever position they originate as. I then use the player based on what I want in a position. IOW I may draft a SS that is 50 range, 70 arm, 55 DP. Those ratings to me scream third-base and is more that likely where I would play him. Having said that I have played guys like that at SS because it was the only place I could fit them. At the end of the day an IF range of 50 at SS isn't good enough to have out there every day and should be avoided if possible. Yes, that 50 range could play there but I think it will cost some runs.

What I do think happens is when the AI creates a player it assigns him a position based on the skills he is created with. Some of those players will be "tweeners" and be assigned both SS and 3b with one position being stronger than another. A player may be created as a SS with 50 range and if you move him to 3b he is now a 3b with 50 range, but in both cases it's still 50 range on the IF. As noted above 50 at SS is not good but at 3b it is quite good. This is how I believe it works and while 95% sure that is right that still leaves room for me to be wrong.

And yes I too have been stuck with playing guys at the best position possible to have their bat in the lineup without being happy with the situation. It's part of the balancing act of pluses/minuses that add challenge and make the game fun.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

Zone Rating is balanced relative to the league. So one plausible case for a player having a negative zone rating despite positive stats is if the league as a whole is using better players. If too many teams have converted SS playing 2B, then he could show a bad ZR despite not actually playing that poorly.

Another possibly is simply the fact that defensive stats are very volatile. In 2022 Bo Bichette was a -16 fielder, but the year before and after he was +3 and +4. Dansby Swanson in 2021 was a -5 fielder, but the year before was +9 (in half a season), and every year since then has put up solid numbers.

-11 is bad, and 10 points different between seasons is a gap in fielding values. But it's not so wide that it could possibly just be some tough luck.

Makes sense and thanks for the explanation.

[mytreds]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

Zone Rating is balanced relative to the league. So one plausible case for a player having a negative zone rating despite positive stats is if the league as a whole is using better players. If too many teams have converted SS playing 2B, then he could show a bad ZR despite not actually playing that poorly.

Another possibly is simply the fact that defensive stats are very volatile. In 2022 Bo Bichette was a -16 fielder, but the year before and after he was +3 and +4. Dansby Swanson in 2021 was a -5 fielder, but the year before was +9 (in half a season), and every year since then has put up solid numbers.

-11 is bad, and 10 points different between seasons is a gap in fielding values. But it's not so wide that it could possibly just be some tough luck.

This should be put on the wiki page.

['94 EXPOS]

Appreciate all the feedback. Always good to learn little nuggets even when you are really old lol!

Fyi, it does like that it was a one season one-off. My 2b ZR for the current season (about half way through) is currently sitting at around -1.

[David Watts]

Am I going nuts? Could have sworn there was a post in this thread claiming that OOTP produces fly balls, singles, ground outs, home runs etc. without knowing where the ball is actually hit. Post asked how the game can create a zone rating without knowing where the ball is hit. I planned on asking whether that was true or not, but then it disappeared. I did see a similar discussion Reddit. I know on each play the in parenthesis portion gives the location of the ball followed by the exit velocity. So that leads me to believe the game does know where the ball is hit. Help.

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Am I going nuts? Could have sworn there was a post in this thread claiming that OOTP produces fly balls, singles, ground outs, home runs etc. without knowing where the ball is actually hit. Post asked how the game can create a zone rating without knowing where the ball is hit. I planned on asking whether that was true or not, but then it disappeared. I did see a similar discussion Reddit. I know on each play the in parenthesis portion gives the location of the ball followed by the exit velocity. So that leads me to believe the game does know where the ball is hit. Help.

I believe that was a Brad alias spouting some BS that got deleted/banned.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Rain King

I believe that was a Brad alias spouting some BS that got deleted/banned.

It was one of a few childish posts after his banning. I wouldn't doubt he is making stuff up while on a revenge tour on Reddit. Unfourtunately that is how a lot of the web works and has for many years.

Originally Posted by David Watts

Am I going nuts? Could have sworn there was a post in this thread claiming that OOTP produces fly balls, singles, ground outs, home runs etc. without knowing where the ball is actually hit. Post asked how the game can create a zone rating without knowing where the ball is hit. I planned on asking whether that was true or not, but then it disappeared. I did see a similar discussion Reddit. I know on each play the in parenthesis portion gives the location of the ball followed by the exit velocity. So that leads me to believe the game does know where the ball is hit. Help.

Yes, the game does know where the ball is hit and uses ratings/math to determine if a fielder gets to the ball, or does not get to the ball.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Sweed

It was one of a few childish posts after his banning. I wouldn't doubt he is making stuff up while on a revenge tour on Reddit. Unfourtunately that is how a lot of the web works and has for many years.



Yes, the game does know where the ball is hit and uses ratings/math to determine if a fielder gets to the ball, or does not get to the ball.

Thanks. I don't manage or gm, so I don't really get into the whole team building aspect of the game, but I really enjoy it when I come across a team the AI has put together that is loaded defensively. I also love to look at career fielding stats to see which player have been the best in my league. It would kind of stink if the game was just making things up.