Soccer question: Everton/Liverpool

[Cobra Mgr]

Are they neighborhoods or separate cities?

How can 2 teams be supported in such a close area?

What's the point of red cards after the game is over?

Is it offsides if the attacking team is even w/the defending one?

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Are they neighborhoods or separate cities?

How can 2 teams be supported in such a close area?

What's the point of red cards after the game is over?

Is it offsides if the attacking team is even w/the defending one?

The fan bases are quite small, even in the Premier League. Three of their stadiums can hold just 17k or less. One, about ten thousand.

[Westheim]

Everton is a borough of Liverpool, like Brooklyn is to New York, kinda. Smaller, yes.

While Liverpool borough has like half a million people, they'll draw from the greater Liverpool/Manchester area, which is home to millions more. It's one of the reasons why for a time in the 1990s the even smaller and even more run-down industrial wasteland of Bochum in the middle of the Ruhr area could support two Bundesliga teams (VfL Bochum and SpVgg Wattenscheid 09).

Thing is, philosophically, in Europe people go small and local for identification, while in the US everything always has to be bigger and more grandiose than it really is. Example: the CALIFORNIA Angels. Nobody in their right mind in America would have named the new New York NL team in 1962 the Queens Mets. In England, absolutely.

Over a third of the Prem teams play inside the M25 motorway encircling London, but their official club names (including a few currently outside the Prem but having played in the Prem in living memory) are these:

Arsenal FC
Brentford FC
Charlton Athletic FC
Chelsea FC
Crystal Palace FC
Fulham FC
Queens Park Rangers FC
Tottenham Hotspur FC
West Ham United FC
Wimbledon FC (defunct)

Mentions of London: zero. They'll rather remain named after a building that burned down in 1936 and was not replaced than be associated with London.

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by Westheim

. They'll rather remain named after a building that burned down in 1936 and was not replaced than be associated with London.

Awesome response!

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by Westheim

Everton is a borough of Liverpool, like Brooklyn is to New York, kinda. Smaller, yes.

While Liverpool borough has like half a million people, they'll draw from the greater Liverpool/Manchester area, which is home to millions more. It's one of the reasons why for a time in the 1990s the even smaller and even more run-down industrial wasteland of Bochum in the middle of the Ruhr area could support two Bundesliga teams (VfL Bochum and SpVgg Wattenscheid 09).

Thing is, philosophically, in Europe people go small and local for identification, while in the US everything always has to be bigger and more grandiose than it really is. Example: the CALIFORNIA Angels. Nobody in their right mind in America would have named the new New York NL team in 1962 the Queens Mets. In England, absolutely.

Over a third of the Prem teams play inside the M25 motorway encircling London, but their official club names (including a few currently outside the Prem but having played in the Prem in living memory) are these:

Arsenal FC
Brentford FC
Charlton Athletic FC
Chelsea FC
Crystal Palace FC
Fulham FC
Queens Park Rangers FC
Tottenham Hotspur FC
West Ham United FC
Wimbledon FC (defunct)

Mentions of London: zero. They'll rather remain named after a building that burned down in 1936 and was not replaced than be associated with London.

I'd never thought about there wasn't a team named after London. That is different.

I'd always thought each starter on a team was paid millions a year. If teams are so crowded, stadiums so small, have I overestimated how much player make in the PL?

And what about my offsides ? & the one about the red cards?

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

I'd never thought about there wasn't a team named after London. That is different.

I'd always thought each starter on a team was paid millions a year. If teams are so crowded, stadiums so small, have I overestimated how much player make in the PL?

And what about my offsides ? & the one about the red cards?

How many professional sports leagues are there in England?

So..take MLB, NBA, and NFL revenue, and add it all up.

[Amazin69]

Originally Posted by Westheim

Nobody in their right mind in America would have named the new New York NL team in 1962 the Queens Mets. In England, absolutely.

Queens, hell! In England. they'd be the Flushing-Corona Mets.

Remember, there are 2.2 million people in Queens. America's 4th largest city if NYC ever Balkanizes. (Los Angeles, Chicago, Brooklyn, Queens.). You think the locals up by the Whitestone Bridge want to be associated with Forest Hills and JFK airport? I doubt it.

(Even if Spider-Man is from Forest Hills.)

[LD84]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Are they neighborhoods or separate cities?

How can 2 teams be supported in such a close area?

What's the point of red cards after the game is over?

Is it offsides if the attacking team is even w/the defending one?

Westheim gave you some great answers.

I will try and give you a bit more insight.


Cities in Europe can support multiple teams because of population density and because the fans are pretty hardcore in their support.
Also because of way European cities are developed. Almost all fans either walk to the stadium or take some form of metro transport to their their. Whether it be bus or tram or light rail or subway.
It is more common to find bicycle parking areas than it is to find car parks near stadiums.
Driving to attend a game is not unheard of, it is just not that common.

I live in Switzerland. I can attend a game here in Zurich and either walk there or take metro if the weather is bad. Both major teams use the same stadium. I can be there in under 20 minutes on match day.
if I want to attend any other game in Switzerland or Europe, I can just use the train system or find a cheap flight.



Technically both clubs are neighborhoods inside of Liverpool.

Downtown Liverpool is on the banks of the river Mersey. Both of these neighborhoods are northwest of the downtown area.

Liverpool play in the Anfield neighborhood
Everton play in the Everton neighborhood

Liverpool itself is part of a greater area called Merseyside named after the river which flows into the Irish Sea.

Manchester is to the east. Sheffield is further east of both of those cities.
Birmingham is to the south.

Together, those four cities and that region makes up a very large chunk of England's industrial heartland.


Everton actually came before Liverpool.
They were founded in 1878 and adopted their name in 1879.
They were set up as a group of Methodist church members who liked to play football
Football in its early days and for much of its history was the sport of the common worker and many clubs were founded by groups of friends or by workers associations and unions.


Everton began playing in a local park called Stanley Park
Eventually they wanted to move to an actual stadium.
They choose Anfield since it is very very close to Everton.
A man named John Houlding was a member of Everton club. He purchased the grounds at Anfield and collected rent from Everton.
The rent kept increasing and by 1888 it was 2.5x what it started at.
Everton began to look for other grounds to play at as these rents were way too high to pay.
A disputes then arose as Everton tried to leave Anfield. Houlding first tried to keep the club their and take control of the club by registering the club as a LTD along with the Anfield grounds.
That failed and the club was prepared to move.
He then told them they could move by had to give up their name, colours, crest, fixtures (schedule that was already agreed upon to play other clubs) and position within English football.
His attempts were blocked by the The Football Association (This is usually referred to as the FA, every nation that has football has some version of a FA)

So Everton left Anfield and went a few blocks away and began to play in the actual neighborhood of Everton at a Stadium called Goodison Park.
It was built in 1892 and was the first major purpose built stadium build in England for football.
Everton still play at this stadium, it has of course been rebuilt and been upgraded many many times in it's 130+ years.
It now seats 39,572

John Houlding still owned the land in Anfield and had experience running a football club.
So he founded his own and named it Liverpool Football Club.
They began play at the same site that Everton left due to the dispute.

They still use the same ground and the same stadium since their founding in 1892
Anfield seats 61,276
It is usually sold out


Liverpool is one of the bigger clubs in Europe in terms of revenue. Usually in the top 10
They were 8th in the 2023-2024 season.

They have a 2 to 1 supported advantage in Liverpool themselves and around the world that is much greater.

I guess Houlding got the last laugh.

It is easy to see why they are such rival now. They play a derby called the Merseyside derby.
A derby in football is usually reserved for your 1 or 2 biggest rivals and usually has a name.

Their stadiums are less than a mile apart and on a clear day you can see one from the other across Stanley Park (where Everton first began play)

It has the most red cards and send offs of any rivalry in English football since 1992 when the Premier League was founded.



Now for your others questions

What's the point of red cards after the game is over?

A red card is of course the worst foul you can commit in association football and you will be sent off.
The point of it after the match is that it always carried additional suspensions.
Whether it is during the match or after (or even before in very rare cases)
It is at a minimum a once batch ban. Depending on the actions of the player and how dangerous the foul was, it can be a two or even three match ban.

This can be appealed.

For this particular incident, players interacting with fans in this manner is usually frowned upon. They are looking at a suspension.

The Liverpool manager and one of their coaches got a red card as well.
That results in what is known as a 'touchline ban'

This is where you are banned from managing your team.
He is banned for two matches (it can be appealed)
He can be at the stadium, but cannot have contact with his team during the match.
Basically he sits in the managers box and as assistant manages the match.

There will be a monetary fine for the players and managers as well.



Is it offsides if the attacking team is even w/the defending one?

Offsides is very hard to explain via text.

Here is the definition from The international football association
board.
They are an advisory board that has unified the laws and rules of football.
Any serious league and international competition uses their rules.

a player is in an offside position if any of their body parts are in the opponents' half of the pitch, and closer to the opponent's goal line than both the ball and the second-last opponent (the last opponent is usually, but not necessarily, the goalkeeper)

Being in an offside position is not an offence in itself, but a player so positioned when the ball is played by a teammate can be judged guilty of an offside offence if they receive the ball or will otherwise become "involved in active play", will "interfere with an opponent", or will "gain an advantage" by being in that position

Here is a much fuller explanation from our friends at the IFAB

https://www.theifab.com/laws/latest/...fside-position

It is one of the hardest rules in football to understand.
Much harder than ice hockey.

It is controversial, but I think VAR has helped make the rule better and more accurate
Even with VARs problems.



I know this was very very long. But I hoped it helped you understand the sport a bit better.

[LD84]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

I'd always thought each starter on a team was paid millions a year. If teams are so crowded, stadiums so small, have I overestimated how much player make in the PL?

You are still correct. Most players who are expected to be is the starting eleven (and many bench players) do make millions a year.
The EPL is fourth in terms of overall revenue. Ahead of the NHL.

They are second in revenue per match, only behind the NFL.

Fan bases are not small and stadiums (most of them) are not small.


Ignore dsvitak

He means well, but he is not very well versed in this topic.

Here is a list of all football teams in terms of revenue

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deloit...l_Money_League

Liverpool was 8th at last reporting, Everton was 27th

Here is just the revenue of EPL teams

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...bs-by-revenue/


Take these with a bit of a grain of salt. They are largely accurate, but teams can engage in some creative accounting when it suits them.

Finally, here is list of EPL teams by stadium capacity

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...dium-capacity/

Most of them are comparable to NFL stadiums or modern MLB stadiums.

You do have two under 20,000

Both of those clubs were recently promoted to the EPL
Brentford in the 2021-2022 season

Bournemouth were promoted, then relegated for two seasons and then made it back.

When you are bounced up and down like that, it is hard to find financial stability.
And in Europe, teams pay for their own stadiums. So you have to have very secure finances or a very wealthy owner to upgrade your current stadium to built a brand new one.

That leads to a lot of disparity.

[LD84]

One very last thing and I promised I will not post for a while

There is one last professional club in the Merseyside region.
Tranmere Rovers F.C. is across the River Mersey in Prenton, Birkenhead
Prenton being a neighborhood and Birkenhead being a city.
It is to the west of Liverpool.

Tranmere is down in League Two which is the fourth level of English football.
It is the last level to usually be fully professional players.

There are another dozen or so teams in Merseyside that are either semi professional or fully amatuer.

Tranmere made it as high the Football League First Division in the 1990s to early 2000s.

That was when English football changed and the EPL was formed as the top division.

Tranmere played in what is known today as the EFL Championship which is the second level of English Football.

They finished as high as fourth which allowed them to participate in a playoff to be promoted to the EPL.
They made this playoff three seasons in a row but lost in the first round every time.

By the 2000s they began to fall back and even fell out of the English Football League (this is the top four levels of English football) for two seasons.
But they have since made it back.

[Cod]

If I'm not mistaken, Goodison Park is only half a mile from Anfield. I remember when I lived in London for a few years, I thought it was crazy that Chelsea and Fulham were only two tube stations apart.

[Cobra Mgr]

@ LD84

Don't apologize for the info overload. I ask cause I want to know. I'd rather have too much info that not enough.

So I'm assuming these derbys are regular season games & not a special tournament? Cause when I heard Merseyside Derby I was thinking this was like an in season college basketball tourney.

I don't get why players aren't allowed to interact with the opposing fans. Why would anyone expect people to be verbally abused & then not respond?

[ezpkns34]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

@ LD84

Don't apologize for the info overload. I ask cause I want to know. I'd rather have too much info that not enough.

So I'm assuming these derbys are regular season games & not a special tournament? Cause when I heard Merseyside Derby I was thinking this was like an in season college basketball tourney.

I don't get why players aren't allowed to interact with the opposing fans. Why would anyone expect people to be verbally abused & then not respond?

Cultural differences

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

So I'm assuming these derbys are regular season games & not a special tournament?

Derby - besides the Derbyshire city home to the Derby County team - really just means teams that are geographically close to each other. The soccerball calendar is so crammed full with useless games (Nations League ) already, there's just no time for extra tours anymore. While teams will play a number of pre-season friendlies, these are virtually never against close geographic rivals.

The game in question was a make-up game from round 15 of the Prem that was postponed due to a severe storm warning when it was scheduled. The Irish Sea, which Liverpool sits next to, can be rough.

[LD84]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

@ LD84

Don't apologize for the info overload. I ask cause I want to know. I'd rather have too much info that not enough.

So I'm assuming these derbys are regular season games & not a special tournament? Cause when I heard Merseyside Derby I was thinking this was like an in season college basketball tourney.

I don't get why players aren't allowed to interact with the opposing fans. Why would anyone expect people to be verbally abused & then not respond?

Yes, they are regular season games that count in the standings as much as any other game.
They just mean a bit more.

Most of them are geographic, but they can also stem from two clubs that have historically been good.

Der Klassiker in Germany and El Clásico for example

Those teams are close to one another geographically in American terms. But are not in the same city.
But all of the teams have historically been very good.


I don't get why players aren't allowed to interact with the opposing fans. Why would anyone expect people to be verbally abused & then not respond?

Maybe you meant to write 'are' here?

As I said before, football has usually been the sport of the industrial cities and the working class.
Players have usually interacted with fans pretty well.

But in the last few decades there has been a deterioration in that relationship.
With racist chants and threats of violence perhaps being the worst.

Most football associations make clubs set aside at least some portion of tickets for away fans.

Going to a football match as an away fan can be a harrowing experience. Especially if you wear the away clubs colours or kit.

I have never been harmed or been in a situation where I have felt I could be harmed. But there were for sure times I have felt uncomfortable.

In my younger days, I went to a Celtic vs Rangers game in Celtic Park wearing the dark blue of Rangers.

I was in my early 20s, so this was in the mid 2000s.
I have never been so scared in my life.

There were literally police around the away supporters area to protect the away supporters.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by LD84

I don't get why players aren't allowed to interact with the opposing fans. Why would anyone expect people to be verbally abused & then not respond?

Maybe you meant to write 'are' here?

As I said before, football has usually been the sport of the industrial cities and the working class.
Players have usually interacted with fans pretty well.

But in the last few decades there has been a deterioration in that relationship.
With racist chants and threats of violence perhaps being the worst.

Most football associations make clubs set aside at least some portion of tickets for away fans.

Going to a football match as an away fan can be a harrowing experience. Especially if you wear the away clubs colours or kit.

I have never been harmed or been in a situation where I have felt I could be harmed. But there were for sure times I have felt uncomfortable.

In my younger days, I went to a Celtic vs Rangers game in Celtic Park wearing the dark blue of Rangers.

I was in my early 20s, so this was in the mid 2000s.
I have never been so scared in my life.

There were literally police around the away supporters area to protect the away supporters.

No I meant "are". I think if you are getting trash talk hurled your way, no one has a right to complain if it is returned in kind. Don't start none, won't be none.

Now understandably, soccer hooligans are a different breed than 95% of American fans. So I can understand the "don't feed the animals" mantra. So if they don't want to poke the bear, so to speak, they need to clean up the behavior in the stands. Otherwise, they've created a hostile work environment.

[monkeyman576]

There have been stadum disasters in Europe where hundreds of fans have died due to trampling. So I think it's understandable why they want to keep fans and players seperate, probably for liability reasons if not ethical ones.

[Westheim]

They need to keep players and fans separated for even more trivial reasons, like people being complete and utter ******** and throwing cigarette lighters at players' heads.

Imagine what they would do if they could get into melee range. These are not your average baseball fans (mid-50s and 240 pounds). These guys know how to beat someone up. They practice outside the stadium every week.

[Cobra Mgr]

I believe in the biblical "turn the other cheek". But human nature says "eye for an eye, tooth for tooth". I'm not going to speak against someone returning blow for blow. If a player doesn't want his fans mouthed off at by an opponent, he needs to step up & admonish his crowd to shut up that noise. No one should be forced to endure such a workplace environment, I don't care if they are in the public eye. Humans are humans & feelings are real. "Treat others as you want to be treated".