Fielding experience doesn't reset when fielding ratings are calculated via league settings

[uruguru]

See this post where I show the problem:


https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=356560




Basically, when you are changing how fielding ratings are calculated (current season, 3-year average, or entire career), the game will give fielding experience for positions that the player knows.


But if you change it so that a player can no longer play a position, the fielding experience remains for that position. This leads it being "remembered" for each historical season after the recalc and the AI being signaled that this is a valid position for the player.


To illustrate what I mean, look at the two images. One is Hank Aaron, 1962 with Fielding set to "Current Season".


The other is the same ratings, but after the Fielding Ratings were set to "Entire Career" and back to "Current Season". You can see that Hank Aaron now has experience at a position (2B) that he cannot really play. This leads to the AI considering him for that position when it shouldn't.


I hope this makes sense.

[LansdowneSt]

So, this is nothing about them playing and retaining experience for positions played... this is just setting the game to Current Season. Comes in as expected. Changing it to Career and hitting the recalc button so it takes. And it changing and then changing back to current (again hitting the recalc button) and it NOT changing?

No games played, correct?

[Garlon]

This is not a bug. We need players to hold on to their fielding experience so that they can learn new positions. This is something we did by design to solve the game being literally unplayable when it was released. You simply could not field a legitimate team because players would have their experience reset each season. The experience will now only reset when using real lineups and transactions.

It will not matter that Aron has 200 experience at 2B because his infield range/arm/error/turn dp ratings will be awful.

In this case of Aaron being used out of position it is because that team must have had a logjam in the OF of other great players, perhaps who had no infield eligibility. What is happening is that in 1962 and 1967 and 1970 Aaron played some 1B and that gives him some amount of infield range/arm/error/turn dp ratings. It gives him enough to play 1B if needed. However, he does have eligibility at 2B, so he ends up with 1B range playing 2B. The game decided to put Aaron at 2B instead of 1B probably to maximize the offense of the team. The game could have used him at 1B but probably decided that it was better off with the other player at 1B (who probably does not have any eligibility at 2B) and putting Aaron at 2B to get everyone into the lineup in this instance. The game is doing this only as a last resort to field a team. It is not just deciding to put Aaron at 2B on a whim, nor does it see him really as a good candidate at 2B. It is just what the game is deciding is the best option to be a competitive team.

There are no issues here.

This is not a bug.

[uruguru]

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

So, this is nothing about them playing and retaining experience for positions played... this is just setting the game to Current Season. Comes in as expected. Changing it to Career and hitting the recalc button so it takes. And it changing and then changing back to current (again hitting the recalc button) and it NOT changing?

No games played, correct?

No games played, that is correct. Just toggling the Fielding Ratings back and forth.

[uruguru]

Originally Posted by Garlon

This is not a bug. We need players to hold on to their fielding experience so that they can learn new positions. This is something we did by design to solve the game being literally unplayable when it was released. You simply could not field a legitimate team because players would have their experience reset each season. The experience will now only reset when using real lineups and transactions.

It will not matter that Aron has 200 experience at 2B because his infield range/arm/error/turn dp ratings will be awful.

In this case of Aaron being used out of position it is because that team must have had a logjam in the OF of other great players, perhaps who had no infield eligibility. What is happening is that in 1962 and 1967 and 1970 Aaron played some 1B and that gives him some amount of infield range/arm/error/turn dp ratings. It gives him enough to play 1B if needed. However, he does have eligibility at 2B, so he ends up with 1B range playing 2B. The game decided to put Aaron at 2B instead of 1B probably to maximize the offense of the team. The game could have used him at 1B but probably decided that it was better off with the other player at 1B (who probably does not have any eligibility at 2B) and putting Aaron at 2B to get everyone into the lineup in this instance. The game is doing this only as a last resort to field a team. It is not just deciding to put Aaron at 2B on a whim, nor does it see him really as a good candidate at 2B. It is just what the game is deciding is the best option to be a competitive team.

There are no issues here.

This is not a bug.

If you think playing a 36-year-old Hank Aaron at 2B is not a bug, then I don't know what to tell you.


As best as I can infer, having experience at a position, even if it is just 1, will indicate to the AI that the position is valid to consider for the player.


Toggling league settings (not playing a game) turns 2B from an invalid position for Aaron to a valid position, and it results in Hank Aaron playing a position that the AI would never have considered otherwise.


It is absolutely 100% a bug. You are wrong.

[Garlon]

If you are doing a replay with real lineups and transactions, you should use Fielding based on current season. For basically anything else just go with 3yr fielding. We do have career fielding in there if you want players to have the same defensive ability every year at their given position for because you want that kind of consistency or if you are building a custom roster set where maybe you would prefer that rating.

[Garlon]

I am telling you that you need to look at why the game is using him at 2B. What do you want a team to do with Clemente in RF and Billy Williams having his best season in LF? Should they bench Aaron? Who are their options at 2B? Why has the team not traded one of those outfielders for a 2B?

I play 1871-2023 games and I do not see this issue occuring.

[uruguru]

Originally Posted by Garlon

If you are doing a replay with real lineups and transactions, you should use Fielding based on current season. For basically anything else just go with 3yr fielding. We do have career fielding in there if you want players to have the same defensive ability every year at their given position for because you want that kind of consistency or if you are building a custom roster set where maybe you would prefer that rating.

Playing with 3-year fielding has nothing to do with this problem and doesn't fix it.

Originally Posted by Garlon

I am telling you that you need to look at why the game is using him at 2B. What do you want a team to do with Clemente in RF and Billy Williams having his best season in LF? Should they bench Aaron? Who are their options at 2B? Why has the team not traded one of those outfielders for a 2B?

I play 1871-2023 games and I do not see this issue occuring.

Dude, just stop reacting when you are not even understanding what the problem is.


This has nothing to do with the AI being forced into playing guys out of position and them getting experience that way. This is about how toggling fielding ratings in the league settings will give players experience in positions they wouldn't otherwise have.


Hank Aaron started the sim in 1962 with 200 experience at a position he couldn't play because I, the human player, unwittingly broke his settings at the start of the sim by toggling fielding ratings in the league settings.


This probably happened for a lot of other players as well, but Hank Aaron is iconic so I noticed when he started getting All-Star votes at Second Base.

[Garlon]

You are toggling a feature, and it is working as designed.

The game will hold on to any experience gained each progressive season. You cannot undo the toggle because the game is not keeping all of those old values in memory. It simply overwrites them. So, when you toggled Aaron gained positional experience and when you toggled again it remained. The game did not hold on to what you had before and there is no undo button.

You could edit the experience and type 0 and press enter and it will save that if you want.

[Garlon]

I have a current game going and Aaron has had 200 experience his entire career at 2B because that was his position his rookie season.

This has been his usage at 2B since 1960:

1960: 5 innings

1962: 1 inning

1965: 2.2 innings

1969: 2 innings


The game is not trying to use him there except in some extreme circumstance like a player got ejected or the team PH for their 2B late in the game and used him there for an inning.

[uruguru]

Originally Posted by Garlon

I have a current game going and Aaron has had 200 experience his entire career at 2B because that was his position his rookie season.

This has been his usage at 2B since 1960:

1960: 5 innings

1962: 1 inning

1965: 2.2 innings

1969: 2 innings


The game is not trying to use him there except in some extreme circumstance like a player got ejected or the team PH for their 2B late in the game and used him there for an inning.

Well unfortunately for you I still have my active save where he's playing 2B in 1970 and removing his experience at 2B immediately triggers the AI to kick him to 1B and put a real 2B there.


And if I give him just minimal experience at SS, the AI will immediately play him there and put Denis Menke on the bench.


So I am happy that you have a save where Hank Aaron isn't broken, but maybe you are not playing the definitive save for everyone else.

[uruguru]

ok, so since this problem is ultimately an AI issue with overvaluing experience at unrated positions, I think the workaround for me right now is just to rank MLB players by their defensive potential at their current position throughout the season.

As I find them, I'll just spot remove their experience at that position so that the AI plays them properly.

[Garlon]

You may also want to try going to League Settings>Historical and set Base player roles/positions on: Real life stats.

That option allows you to select between real life stats and AI evaluation. When using AI evaluation the computer may be more willing to put player at their secondary positions.

[Matt Arnold]

It was tweaked so that unless if you're running with historical lineups/rosters, players would retain their experience. The way it is set up, the game doesn't necessarily make a difference between "natural recalc at the end of the season moving to next year" vs "forced recalc since settings changed", so it will retain the values in both versions. We can look at separating them and forcing the full fielding recalc when using the button in the settings page.

Teams should rarely play guys who are rated that terribly at a position, but especially in historical games, teams can struggle to find regular players to fit their lineup. They could possibly be more aggressive at trading players to fill spots, that would be a potential update for the future. Although again, it can often be complicated, it may be hard to find a match. Especially for someone that talented - you don't really want to give him away for an end of career Nellie Fox or something, just to fill a spot at 2b. Even with absolutely horrible defense at 2b he might still be more valuable.

[uruguru]

Matt, I love you guys and I understand this game is a real bitch to balance. I really do! I am a massive baseball fan and I struggle with getting the right amount of verisimilitude in my sims so I am constantly tinkering with the settings to find a good balance.

But when a player has zero fielding ability at a position, there is no way the game should play him there if there are other options.

In this example, Hank Aaron had only OF and 1B ratings. His infielder ratings were too low to normally be considered for 2B, but they were not zero. Which means that, with enough playing experience, those tiny ratings can result in an overall 2B position rating that is greater than 0. And once that happens, the AI is suddenly willing to START the player at that position.

Now normally, since the AI would never start a player at that position, his position rating stays at 0. But with the game you guys made to retain experience, the AI may have started him at that position years ago when he DID have valid ratings at that position. (in my case, it was the fielding toggle bug)

Now that 200 fielding experience at 2B that Hank Aaron gained in 1955 when he was 20 years old could be passed down, year after year, never decaying, until finally the AI says, "you know what? This 37-year-old slugger with no legs is my best option at 2B"

But unfortunately it results in the worst second baseman in the history of baseball. And that's really the core of the problem, imo. If Aaron still had remedial skills at 2B and was just clunky there, it would be different.

Now it's true that it may not occur in every save because of different trades and because it takes a really good hitter to override the AI's positioning logic, but it's actually pretty easy to recreate now that I am aware of it.

I know that there is a hard cutoff for stamina that prevents a pitcher from starting a game unless there is absolutely no one else available. It's something like 50 in the editor, I think.

It feels like position players need the same thing for the position rating. If someone like Aaron has 200 fielding experience in 2B because he played there 15 years ago, then ok we can put him at 2B in a pinch situation (like in the real world). But with a position rating of 7? There's no way he should be starting games when there are other options.

Anyway, I have restarted my sim so that a huge chunk of players are not affected by the fielding rating toggle, and I am on alert to ensure players don't retain experience for positions they lose ratings on in a recalc.

I know it's a complicated game, and I know it really sucks to have a playerbase that is so anal-retentive about accuracy.

[uruguru]

And one more thing, because this is important to note.

This is a new problem introduced by the fielding experience retention added in 25. It did not occur in 24 because the recalc ensured that players did not have experience in positions that they were not qualified to play in.

Obviously, no one wants to get rid of fielding experience retention. That is a great feature! But this is the kind of unexpected consequence of a change that devs hate, lol. Anyway, I hope you guys figure it out.

[LansdowneSt]

Originally Posted by uruguru

I know it really sucks to have a playerbase that is so anal-retentive about accuracy.

Sure, trash those that spend months of their personal time ensuring that - esp with the new ratings scale - the game reliability translates MLB stats of various eras into game ratings that can then be turned back into realistic stats. It’s the core baseline of so many things.

That was an uncalled for remark and, frankly, not relevant to the points you were ably making.

[LansdowneSt]

Originally Posted by uruguru

And one more thing, because this is important to note.

This is a new problem introduced by the fielding experience retention added in 25. It did not occur in 24 because the recalc ensured that players did not have experience in positions that they were not qualified to play in.

Obviously, no one wants to get rid of fielding experience retention. That is a great feature! But this is the kind of unexpected consequence of a change that devs hate, lol. Anyway, I hope you guys figure it out.

OOTP 24 was the anomaly. Players always retained fielding prior to OOTP 24. OOTP24 created a problem that never existed before.

Fielding became a mess in 24 alt-historical games because everyone would revert to positions that they played in real life forgetting all the training they had gotten on their new teams they ended up on as you played, traded, drafted, etc. Ozzie Smith next to Garry Templeton as an elite middle infield - forget it. 2B experience would get erased every year in 24 as if they were playing on different teams - but in the game, as you try to have fun in an alternative reality - Ozzie just became an elite 2B after a year of training. Why would he forget that year of 2B learning/experience curve on October 25th's Offseason start?

Also, if you don't want Hank to have any 2B experience even though he played there in his career and hew closer to his age-appropriate self - don't use Career Fielding as you are going against its intent. Use 3-year.

The defense v offense is a worthwhile discussion but it's Hank Aaron. If someone is bad enough in the field but great at the plate, there are ample historical examples of living with the bad defense.

[uruguru]

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

Sure, trash those that spend months of their personal time ensuring that - esp with the new ratings scale - the game reliability translates MLB stats of various eras into game ratings that can then be turned back into realistic stats. It’s the core baseline of so many things.

That was an uncalled for remark and, frankly, not relevant to the points you were ably making.

I was referring to myself. Sorry if it didn't come across that way.

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

Also, if you don't want Hank to have any 2B experience even though he played there in his career and hew closer to his age-appropriate self - don't use Career Fielding as you are going against its intent. Use 3-year.

I was using single-season. This problem does not go away with 3-year average. The issue is that the AI interprets fielding experience as ability to play the position.

[LansdowneSt]

Originally Posted by uruguru

I was referring to myself. Sorry if it didn't come across that way.

Thanks for clarifying. I was pretty hot after reading that, as I read it, obviously, the opposite way. Sorry, for the hot tone thereafter.