Question for Random Debut Game Players

LansdowneSt · 07-04-2024, 01:33 PM

I started a RD game in 1920 and am heading into 1935. I do not Retire According to History, and I do use Recalc and Development together.

So, players that were rookies in 1921-3 are starting to hit their mid30's. I notice that almost as soon as active players (so the recalc has run out at some point in the past), reach age 32... they utterly collapse defensively. Can't find an exception to this rule so far. Not a single one. All active players that hit the age of 30, be they at 80 Defense (I use 1-100) or 65 defense or 45 defense... are all 20's by age 32-33. It's better seen o nthe scouting reports but it's full of monthlys so hard to get the cliff-falling defense all on a single screenshot.

If there are any other OOTP players out there that do RD and Recalc & Development, I'd be curious your experience before I post a bug about it. I may start some games just to sim as well but thought some might be playing RD Recalc & Development here as well.

Thanks

Reed · 07-04-2024, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

I started a RD game in 1920 and am heading into 1935. I do not Retire According to History, and I do use Recalc and Development together.

So, players that were rookies in 1921-3 are starting to hit their mid30's. I notice that almost as soon as active players (so the recalc has run out at some point in the past), reach age 32... they utterly collapse defensively. Can't find an exception to this rule so far. Not a single one. All active players that hit the age of 30, be they at 80 Defense (I use 1-100) or 65 defense or 45 defense... are all 20's by age 32-33. It's better seen o nthe scouting reports but it's full of monthlys so hard to get the cliff-falling defense all on a single screenshot.

If there are any other OOTP players out there that do RD and Recalc & Development, I'd be curious your experience before I post a bug about it. I may start some games just to sim as well but thought some might be playing RD Recalc & Development here as well.

Thanks

I don’t know the answer since I have been playing with development off but definitely interest.
I assume you are playing with default settings for aging, target age, etc..
When I played with development I didn’t like how all my players took a nose dive around age 33-34 but I didn’t pay attention to their fielding.

David Watts · 07-04-2024, 03:55 PM

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David Watts · 07-04-2024, 03:58 PM

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LansdowneSt · 07-04-2024, 04:55 PM

Yeah, it's all default settings on that stuff, Reed.

The aging at 32/33 seemed much more aggressive when I tested in OOTP25 (when trying to use Recalc & Development) in games. I put an early ticket in about the Recalc & Development games impacting power hitters in the past - where a Mike Schmidt collapses at 32, recalcs back to a monster, and then collapses after the calc as the year goes on until they are a shadow of themselves by season's end... and then repeats the pattern. But because I'm in the 1930s, I have not focused on the past power hitters as much - partly also b/c I'm trying to play for once instead of test.

Thanks for the postings, Dave. Those guys look great. Keep an eye on it as you play through different RD iterations. I'll try and run some actual tests and see if it is a pattern in certain eras.

I was just getting frustrated at how predicable the fielding collapses were in the RD game I'm running, I wanted to survey those that play in a similar fashion. The feedback is very much appreciated.

David Watts · 07-04-2024, 06:58 PM

I found Judge and Crawford that have both maintained decent ratings. I then found Xander Bogaerts and Josh Naylor, that both cratered exactly like the players in your examples.

David Watts · 07-04-2024, 08:21 PM

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LansdowneST, I think you should post your screenshots to the bug forum. Even with Judge and Crawford not following suit, having a guy like Nolan Arenado crater is too big a deal to be ignored.

Reed · 07-05-2024, 04:35 PM

Crawford & Judge. wonder if their development is treated differently since they are still relatively young and active IRL in 2023???

David Watts · 07-05-2024, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reed

Crawford & Judge. wonder if their development is treated differently since they are still relatively young and active IRL in 2023???

Judge is older than Bogaerts in real life and Arenado is only one year older. I think something is fudged with the game. I've put random debut on the shelf for now.

Garlon · 07-06-2024, 02:26 AM

It sounds like what is happening is that the recalc is still looking at the fielding file for the fielding ratings but since you have players not retiring according to history OOTP is seeing no more fielding ratings to use and their ratings tank.

Sounds like the development engine takes over for batting and pitching but is not able to do anything with fielding with that particular combination of game settings you are using.

I had posted a related bug to this regarding players with gap seasons in their fielding record where their ratings would get reduced to league average when using recalc mode.

David Watts · 07-07-2024, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garlon

It sounds like what is happening is that the recalc is still looking at the fielding file for the fielding ratings but since you have players not retiring according to history OOTP is seeing no more fielding ratings to use and their ratings tank.

Sounds like the development engine takes over for batting and pitching but is not able to do anything with fielding with that particular combination of game settings you are using.

I had posted a related bug to this regarding players with gap seasons in their fielding record where their ratings would get reduced to league average when using recalc mode.

Random debut has been around for how many years now? It's worked like a charm for how many years? In the blink of an eye it becomes crap. The combination of game settings being used have worked for years. I really think I'm done buying this game. I will find ways to play this version, but I'm sick of having things yanked out from under me, with an oh well that's the breaks explanation.

Brad K · 07-07-2024, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Watts

I'm sick of having things yanked out from under me, with an oh well that's the breaks explanation.

It could be worse. At least he didn't give you the "it's your fault" explanation that he did HERE

Garlon · 07-07-2024, 09:56 PM

As I said, I posted a related bug about this issue months ago. They are basically the same bug with the game looking for a defensive rating in the files and when seeing none tanking the player defensive ratings. That should not happen in any mode. The game should just hold the last given defensive ratings when it cannot find any corresponding fielding line for the next season in the file.

This is not something that has been corrected yet. I never said it should not be corrected.

Matt Arnold · 07-08-2024, 08:10 AM

If there's no more data for players, then the dev engine takes over if selected for batting, pitching, and fielding.

One of the slight flaws is probably that in the last recalc example, players won't have data for the "next" season. So Arenado's last fielding recalc would end up based more heavily on his 2023 season, and his fielding for the last couple years has been below average.

Someone like Bogaerts I'm a little more surprised he fell off so fast, but sometimes that might just be a tough run of development ratings after the stats ran out.

David Watts · 07-08-2024, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

If there's no more data for players, then the dev engine takes over if selected for batting, pitching, and fielding.

One of the slight flaws is probably that in the last recalc example, players won't have data for the "next" season. So Arenado's last fielding recalc would end up based more heavily on his 2023 season, and his fielding for the last couple years has been below average.

Someone like Bogaerts I'm a little more surprised he fell off so fast, but sometimes that might just be a tough run of development ratings after the stats ran out.

I don't remember this stuff happening with older versions of he game. I still have 24, 23 and several older versions. If I get the energy I plan to run some fast sims to see if this was a problem in the past. I sure don't remember it being an issue. If all the modern guys were being forced into DH land at such a young age, I think I would have ditched random debut years ago. I have a feeling this may be a side effect of adding retire according to history to the random debut game and whatever had to be done to make sure modern players don't retire there last recalc year. Of course, if it is, we the user will not be told this.

David Watts · 07-08-2024, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garlon

As I said, I posted a related bug about this issue months ago. They are basically the same bug with the game looking for a defensive rating in the files and when seeing none tanking the player defensive ratings. That should not happen in any mode. The game should just hold the last given defensive ratings when it cannot find any corresponding fielding line for the next season in the file.

This is not something that has been corrected yet. I never said it should not be corrected.

Alright, my apologies. I assumed your post was heading in the direction of telling us that we have to use retire according to history at all times when using historical players. This is a game I play for enjoyment. Therefore, I don't like to manipulate the fun out of the game just so I can get the correct stat rates.

David Watts · 07-08-2024, 09:48 PM

Just ran test using OOTP24. This issue is new to 25. Modern day random debut players did not have their fielding ratings tank due to running out of recalc years.

LansdowneSt · 07-08-2024, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Watts

Just ran test using OOTP24. This issue is new to 25. Modern day random debut players did not have their fielding ratings tank due to running out of recalc years.

Thaks for taking the time to do that. I'd intended to but hadn't gotten the time to.

Garlon · 07-09-2024, 02:00 AM

Matt, i think there may be a bug here and it is related to the player not having any fielding ratings in the file.

I posted a bug about Willie Mays having extremely great range in 1952 and 1954, but in 1953 he did not play and his range in CF immediately goes down to league average for CF. So, it does fall off substantially as soon as there are no ratings available.

For a situation like Mays, I would like to see the game either hold his 1952 ratings over into 1953, or look to find his next available fielding ratings, in that instance it could just use the 1954 season. This would alleviate some issues with fielding for players with gap seasons.

As for players who have no more fielding entries because they are a current player like Betts, I think the intent is to have development take over for fielding, but I think it may not be working as intended in OOTP 25.

David Watts · 07-09-2024, 09:16 AM

Sad. The adjust/weaken settings change is made 2 or 3 years ago and we the user are left in the dark until the after the release of OOTP25. Even then, no official announcement was ever made. One had to be lucky enough to read the thread in which the change was mentioned. 23 and 24 were pretty much lost versions due to this in my eye. I enjoyed them, but overall, a waste of time

Now, 25 comes out and random debut is pretty much unplayable if one wants to use modern day players.

07-04-2024, 01:33 PM	#1
LansdowneSt Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: From Duxbury, Mass residing Baltimore Posts: 7,563	Question for Random Debut Game Players I started a RD game in 1920 and am heading into 1935. I do not Retire According to History, and I do use Recalc and Development together. So, players that were rookies in 1921-3 are starting to hit their mid30's. I notice that almost as soon as active players (so the recalc has run out at some point in the past), reach age 32... they utterly collapse defensively. Can't find an exception to this rule so far. Not a single one. All active players that hit the age of 30, be they at 80 Defense (I use 1-100) or 65 defense or 45 defense... are all 20's by age 32-33. It's better seen o nthe scouting reports but it's full of monthlys so hard to get the cliff-falling defense all on a single screenshot. If there are any other OOTP players out there that do RD and Recalc & Development, I'd be curious your experience before I post a bug about it. I may start some games just to sim as well but thought some might be playing RD Recalc & Development here as well. Thanks Attached Images __________________ Complete Universe Facegen Pack 2.0 (mine included) https://www.mediafire.com/file_premi...k_2.0.zip/file Just my Facegen Pack: https://www.mediafire.com/file_premi..._Pack.zip/file

07-04-2024, 04:55 PM	#5
LansdowneSt Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: From Duxbury, Mass residing Baltimore Posts: 7,563	Yeah, it's all default settings on that stuff, Reed. The aging at 32/33 seemed much more aggressive when I tested in OOTP25 (when trying to use Recalc & Development) in games. I put an early ticket in about the Recalc & Development games impacting power hitters in the past - where a Mike Schmidt collapses at 32, recalcs back to a monster, and then collapses after the calc as the year goes on until they are a shadow of themselves by season's end... and then repeats the pattern. But because I'm in the 1930s, I have not focused on the past power hitters as much - partly also b/c I'm trying to play for once instead of test. Thanks for the postings, Dave. Those guys look great. Keep an eye on it as you play through different RD iterations. I'll try and run some actual tests and see if it is a pattern in certain eras. I was just getting frustrated at how predicable the fielding collapses were in the RD game I'm running, I wanted to survey those that play in a similar fashion. The feedback is very much appreciated. __________________ Complete Universe Facegen Pack 2.0 (mine included) https://www.mediafire.com/file_premi...k_2.0.zip/file Just my Facegen Pack: https://www.mediafire.com/file_premi..._Pack.zip/file

07-04-2024, 06:58 PM	#6
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 9,942 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	I found Judge and Crawford that have both maintained decent ratings. I then found Xander Bogaerts and Josh Naylor, that both cratered exactly like the players in your examples. Last edited by David Watts; 07-04-2024 at 08:10 PM.

07-05-2024, 04:35 PM	#8
Reed Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 2,339	Crawford & Judge. wonder if their development is treated differently since they are still relatively young and active IRL in 2023??? __________________ I am not responsible for anything I post!!! Use at your own risk!

07-09-2024, 09:16 AM	#20
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 9,942 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Sad. The adjust/weaken settings change is made 2 or 3 years ago and we the user are left in the dark until the after the release of OOTP25. Even then, no official announcement was ever made. One had to be lucky enough to read the thread in which the change was mentioned. 23 and 24 were pretty much lost versions due to this in my eye. I enjoyed them, but overall, a waste of time Now, 25 comes out and random debut is pretty much unplayable if one wants to use modern day players. Last edited by David Watts; 07-09-2024 at 11:55 AM.

07-04-2024, 03:55 PM	#3
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 9,942 Infractions: 0/1 (1)

07-04-2024, 03:58 PM	#4
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 9,942 Infractions: 0/1 (1)

07-04-2024, 08:21 PM	#7
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 9,942 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	LansdowneST, I think you should post your screenshots to the bug forum. Even with Judge and Crawford not following suit, having a guy like Nolan Arenado crater is too big a deal to be ignored.

07-06-2024, 02:26 AM	#10
Garlon Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 4,268	It sounds like what is happening is that the recalc is still looking at the fielding file for the fielding ratings but since you have players not retiring according to history OOTP is seeing no more fielding ratings to use and their ratings tank. Sounds like the development engine takes over for batting and pitching but is not able to do anything with fielding with that particular combination of game settings you are using. I had posted a related bug to this regarding players with gap seasons in their fielding record where their ratings would get reduced to league average when using recalc mode.

07-07-2024, 09:56 PM	#13
Garlon Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 4,268	As I said, I posted a related bug about this issue months ago. They are basically the same bug with the game looking for a defensive rating in the files and when seeing none tanking the player defensive ratings. That should not happen in any mode. The game should just hold the last given defensive ratings when it cannot find any corresponding fielding line for the next season in the file. This is not something that has been corrected yet. I never said it should not be corrected.

07-08-2024, 08:10 AM	#14
Matt Arnold OOTP Developer Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Here and there Posts: 15,859	If there's no more data for players, then the dev engine takes over if selected for batting, pitching, and fielding. One of the slight flaws is probably that in the last recalc example, players won't have data for the "next" season. So Arenado's last fielding recalc would end up based more heavily on his 2023 season, and his fielding for the last couple years has been below average. Someone like Bogaerts I'm a little more surprised he fell off so fast, but sometimes that might just be a tough run of development ratings after the stats ran out.

07-08-2024, 09:48 PM	#17
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 9,942 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Just ran test using OOTP24. This issue is new to 25. Modern day random debut players did not have their fielding ratings tank due to running out of recalc years.

07-09-2024, 02:00 AM	#19
Garlon Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 4,268	Matt, i think there may be a bug here and it is related to the player not having any fielding ratings in the file. I posted a bug about Willie Mays having extremely great range in 1952 and 1954, but in 1953 he did not play and his range in CF immediately goes down to league average for CF. So, it does fall off substantially as soon as there are no ratings available. For a situation like Mays, I would like to see the game either hold his 1952 ratings over into 1953, or look to find his next available fielding ratings, in that instance it could just use the 1954 season. This would alleviate some issues with fielding for players with gap seasons. As for players who have no more fielding entries because they are a current player like Betts, I think the intent is to have development take over for fielding, but I think it may not be working as intended in OOTP 25.