Historical Potential Fielding Ratings

omg_pwnasaurus · 11-18-2023, 01:02 AM

I started a save in 1981 (no recalc/dev is on, no changes to most all the default settings, scouting off/100% acc) and the last 3 imported historical draft classes have all basically had the same potential ratings that simply vary only by position. Like all catchers from Benito Santiago to historically bad ones start at 30 actual/40 potential fielding and never seem to increase the potential past 40 at least for the last 3 years I've played. Like potential fielding ratings seem frozen in place.

Hitting potential ratings/pitching potential ratings all increase (or decrease) but everyone from Omar Vizquel down to John Kruk never seem to increase potential fielding at all regardless of position. Just curious if anyone playing historical has seen fielding ratings increase potential like other ratings do. They definitely increased in previous versions I've played but I'm not seeing it at all here for any player.

omg_pwnasaurus · 11-20-2023, 04:29 PM

So are people who play historical seasons with dev on seeing potential fielding ratings increasing (or decreasing)? I'm just seeing catchers that get created after the original year starting point via the draft pool, with 40 potential stay that way for years now. Seems kinda weird.

LansdowneSt · 11-20-2023, 05:06 PM

What setting was the fielding import setting put on? If it didn't take into account the full career, that might be an issue. If it was just their import year and they came in young, there may not be enough data for the game to tell who has potential and who doesn't. The game defaults to average in the absence of data with regard to fielding. Fielding is more static than hitting or pitching. Try a comparison league and sim it out using full career fielding settings upon import.

Anyway, just a guess...

omg_pwnasaurus · 11-20-2023, 06:21 PM

Thanks. Will check it out

omg_pwnasaurus · 11-20-2023, 06:26 PM

I have Base fielding ratings on 3 year period but that's what I always used in every iteration of the game. Is that the issue you think why potential ratings never change even for positions that were primary positions within that 3 year scope? Seems weird.

Charlie Hough · 11-20-2023, 07:49 PM

What you're experiencing is how OOTP handles fielding ratings vs. batting and pitching ratings. As LandsdownSt mentioned, fielding ratings are much more static and stable, and they often don't change much or at all. This is because OOTP does not calculate and use fielding potential ratings like it does batting and pitching potentials.

For example, if you play in commissioner mode and look at the raw numbers in a player's profile, you will see that there are no potential ratings for range, arm, error or turn DP. There are only current fielding ratings. The only potential ratings you'll find in some of the player reports are positional potential ratings, and not any potentials for range, arm or error.

This does not mean that a player will not improve. Players can still improve or potentially get worse in all of their fielding abilities. They can certainly gain more experience at certain positions and even learn new positions within OOTP's limits. But the range, arm, error and turn DP ratings seem to change a lot less frequently and much more gradually or occasionally compared to other rating types. I suspect that this is due to a lack of fielding potential ratings, but it might also be how the development engine is designed to handle fielding.

FYI, for historical players, they are locked down from learning certain new positions if they didn't play an adjacent position in real life within the range of years you specified when your players were created. Also, all OOTP players are unable to play certain infield positions if they throw left-handed. But, otherwise, players can certainly develop as fielders, even though many will have the same fielding ratings for years on end, with no change.

omg_pwnasaurus · 11-20-2023, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

This does not mean that a player will not improve. Players can still improve or potentially get worse in all of their fielding abilities.

Ok thanks. That's good to know. I haven't seen a catcher created with higher than 40 potential in like 3 years of historical drafts in this version so I thought maybe there was an issue. I haven't seen a catcher improve their potential rating in those 3 years of playing either so again wasn't sure if that was ever going to change.

I can "Compare Player" to see which positions certain players have the ability to improve/gain experience in but basically every player that gets created in a historical draft has the following max potential rating at the following important defensive positions (assuming that is their primary position):

C - 40
CF - 45
SS - 50

And that potential never increases which makes it seem weird when like Ron Karkovice starts with the same potential defensive rating at catcher as Galarraga when the only reasoning for drafting someone like Karkovice would be potential to be a good defensive catcher.

Doesn't seem like potential changes. Actual does but that means there's a hard ceiling which is the same for everyone.

TL/DR: If McGwire gets created and dropped into a historical draft with 80 grade potential power why is Karkovice created and dropped into a historical draft with the same defensive potential as Andres Galarraga as a catcher? It seems odd and a bit concerning since I'm not seeing any change in potential defensive rating over years either.

Like over time it seems like every historical draft is going to produce the same defensive player at each position regardless of player.

LansdowneSt · 11-20-2023, 10:36 PM

Gotta compare their rookie years.

Karko had 0+37+39 games (I don't know what the game uses for fielding - prob innings played but the game count makes the point) on a three-year creation import for fielding. So he is that person - someone with a low stat count to base defense off of - so the engine assumes he's pretty average based on sample size. Absent recalc, he is just that guy with scant info for the engine to ever go off of. The name is meaningless to the game and, with recalc off, you prevented the engine from knowing he proved to be a good defensive catcher as sample size increased.

Mac was insane with power from the get-go as a rookie. And there is a separate toggle for setting potential on import for hitting and pitching skill. Was it set to his career peak or peak of remaining years - if that's the case, the engine has directionality on where to grow him (though absent recalc, the engine will do as it will).

I think it's that simple. My hope is setting it to career fielding will help some but the fielding bell curve for players, absent recalc, may still be muted. You'd have to play with the settings and sim it out to check how those settings impact it.

Again, just a guess

omg_pwnasaurus · 11-20-2023, 11:08 PM

Thanks, I'll check it out but Karko was just one example, I haven't seen one catcher with a potential > 40 appear in any historical draft at all which just seems weird. Same with potential > 50 for SS or potential > 45 for CF. Any players just seems odd and it's gotta be some global thing but I've been using 3 year for fielding since like 20 or 21 so maybe something changed in 23 for historical leagues or something. If that potential still changes over time after import, than that's fine too but I'm just not seeing that either.

I'll go back and check some other 23 saves but I don't really remember this occurring, maybe it was an unintended consequence of that late patch that fixed high potential fielding ratings for subpositions for players or whatever that was.

omg_pwnasaurus · 11-20-2023, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by omg_pwnasaurus

I'll go back and check some other 23 saves but I don't really remember this occurring, maybe it was an unintended consequence of that late patch that fixed high potential fielding ratings for subpositions for players or whatever that was.

The other '23 saves were heterogeneous distributions (or at least not all 40) for created player potential defensive ratings in historical drafts so I'm guessing one of the patches (likely the fielding one about fixing the subposition ratings) borked this and made all potential fielding homogeneous distributions for historical drafts/import.

As long as it eventually fluctuates via dev engine, that's fine but I've yet to see that.

11-18-2023, 01:02 AM	#1
omg_pwnasaurus Major Leagues Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 420	Historical Potential Fielding Ratings I started a save in 1981 (no recalc/dev is on, no changes to most all the default settings, scouting off/100% acc) and the last 3 imported historical draft classes have all basically had the same potential ratings that simply vary only by position. Like all catchers from Benito Santiago to historically bad ones start at 30 actual/40 potential fielding and never seem to increase the potential past 40 at least for the last 3 years I've played. Like potential fielding ratings seem frozen in place. Hitting potential ratings/pitching potential ratings all increase (or decrease) but everyone from Omar Vizquel down to John Kruk never seem to increase potential fielding at all regardless of position. Just curious if anyone playing historical has seen fielding ratings increase potential like other ratings do. They definitely increased in previous versions I've played but I'm not seeing it at all here for any player. Last edited by omg_pwnasaurus; 11-18-2023 at 01:34 AM.

11-20-2023, 05:06 PM	#3
LansdowneSt Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: From Duxbury, Mass residing Baltimore Posts: 8,155	What setting was the fielding import setting put on? If it didn't take into account the full career, that might be an issue. If it was just their import year and they came in young, there may not be enough data for the game to tell who has potential and who doesn't. The game defaults to average in the absence of data with regard to fielding. Fielding is more static than hitting or pitching. Try a comparison league and sim it out using full career fielding settings upon import. Anyway, just a guess... __________________ Complete Universe Facegen Pack 2.0 (mine included) https://www.mediafire.com/file_premi...k_2.0.zip/file Just my Facegen Pack: https://www.mediafire.com/file_premi..._Pack.zip/file

11-20-2023, 07:49 PM	#6
Charlie Hough Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,644	What you're experiencing is how OOTP handles fielding ratings vs. batting and pitching ratings. As LandsdownSt mentioned, fielding ratings are much more static and stable, and they often don't change much or at all. This is because OOTP does not calculate and use fielding potential ratings like it does batting and pitching potentials. For example, if you play in commissioner mode and look at the raw numbers in a player's profile, you will see that there are no potential ratings for range, arm, error or turn DP. There are only current fielding ratings. The only potential ratings you'll find in some of the player reports are positional potential ratings, and not any potentials for range, arm or error. This does not mean that a player will not improve. Players can still improve or potentially get worse in all of their fielding abilities. They can certainly gain more experience at certain positions and even learn new positions within OOTP's limits. But the range, arm, error and turn DP ratings seem to change a lot less frequently and much more gradually or occasionally compared to other rating types. I suspect that this is due to a lack of fielding potential ratings, but it might also be how the development engine is designed to handle fielding. FYI, for historical players, they are locked down from learning certain new positions if they didn't play an adjacent position in real life within the range of years you specified when your players were created. Also, all OOTP players are unable to play certain infield positions if they throw left-handed. But, otherwise, players can certainly develop as fielders, even though many will have the same fielding ratings for years on end, with no change. Last edited by Charlie Hough; 11-20-2023 at 11:23 PM.

11-20-2023, 10:36 PM	#8
LansdowneSt Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: From Duxbury, Mass residing Baltimore Posts: 8,155	Gotta compare their rookie years. Karko had 0+37+39 games (I don't know what the game uses for fielding - prob innings played but the game count makes the point) on a three-year creation import for fielding. So he is that person - someone with a low stat count to base defense off of - so the engine assumes he's pretty average based on sample size. Absent recalc, he is just that guy with scant info for the engine to ever go off of. The name is meaningless to the game and, with recalc off, you prevented the engine from knowing he proved to be a good defensive catcher as sample size increased. Mac was insane with power from the get-go as a rookie. And there is a separate toggle for setting potential on import for hitting and pitching skill. Was it set to his career peak or peak of remaining years - if that's the case, the engine has directionality on where to grow him (though absent recalc, the engine will do as it will). I think it's that simple. My hope is setting it to career fielding will help some but the fielding bell curve for players, absent recalc, may still be muted. You'd have to play with the settings and sim it out to check how those settings impact it. Again, just a guess __________________ Complete Universe Facegen Pack 2.0 (mine included) https://www.mediafire.com/file_premi...k_2.0.zip/file Just my Facegen Pack: https://www.mediafire.com/file_premi..._Pack.zip/file

11-20-2023, 11:08 PM	#9
omg_pwnasaurus Major Leagues Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 420	Thanks, I'll check it out but Karko was just one example, I haven't seen one catcher with a potential > 40 appear in any historical draft at all which just seems weird. Same with potential > 50 for SS or potential > 45 for CF. Any players just seems odd and it's gotta be some global thing but I've been using 3 year for fielding since like 20 or 21 so maybe something changed in 23 for historical leagues or something. If that potential still changes over time after import, than that's fine too but I'm just not seeing that either. I'll go back and check some other 23 saves but I don't really remember this occurring, maybe it was an unintended consequence of that late patch that fixed high potential fielding ratings for subpositions for players or whatever that was. Last edited by omg_pwnasaurus; 11-20-2023 at 11:24 PM.

11-20-2023, 04:29 PM	#2
omg_pwnasaurus Major Leagues Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 420	So are people who play historical seasons with dev on seeing potential fielding ratings increasing (or decreasing)? I'm just seeing catchers that get created after the original year starting point via the draft pool, with 40 potential stay that way for years now. Seems kinda weird.

11-20-2023, 06:21 PM	#4
omg_pwnasaurus Major Leagues Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 420	Thanks. Will check it out

11-20-2023, 06:26 PM	#5
omg_pwnasaurus Major Leagues Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 420	I have Base fielding ratings on 3 year period but that's what I always used in every iteration of the game. Is that the issue you think why potential ratings never change even for positions that were primary positions within that 3 year scope? Seems weird.