Whats happening with this game and updates?

Erithtotl · 05-21-2003, 12:07 AM

Maybe I've missed something, but I've seen NOTHING about what future updates are in the work and when we might see the next patch. I know Markus went on vacation but that was a month ago, I thought he was only gone for a week or two, maybe I'm wrong.

I'm extremely disappointed in the game right now. The new 5.10 trading interface has completely lobotomized the single player game. The AI will trade super prospects for crap 1 star 35 year old middle relievers on a consistent basis, and it's just ruined the game for me. I played HUNDREDS of seasons of OOTP4 and even though I won almost every year, I at least had to work at it, and I didn't have to put down all sorts of 'house rules' to keep it fun. If I wanted to get a top prospect, I'd usually have to offer a top-quality player to get him. If prospect development had been a little more erratic in OOTP4, then the game would have been even more challenging. Honestly, was there any user testing at all on the 5.10 patch before it was released? Any regular player would have spotted the problems almost immediately.

I'm sure I'll get flamed from some people for this. I've heard it before: 'We're always working to improve the trading AI'. But to me that sounds like denial. I don't think anyone can argue the AI is essentially non-existant at this point for trading, and has taken significant steps backwards since the initial release of OOTP5. I just want to get the game back to where it was FUN. I really enjoyed the first patch. It only needed a few tweaks for it to really be really good.

OOTP 5.10 just gives it all away. In fact, each patch has made the game less challenging, to the point where it takes no skill at all, and this is on the hardest difficulty levels.

It would almost be worth it for me to roll back to an earlier patch, but thats not really realistic, as 1) I'm in an online league and we use v. 5.10, 2) I want all the other fixes and tweaks that have gone in the patches and 3) I don't even know where I would get the old versions.

I used to sit for hours playing through seasons of OOTP4. I came back to the game again and again, even though it seemed I'd gotten everything out of it I could. I did the same with the first two patches of OOTP5. I'd just like to get the game back to where I could enjoy it again.

statfreak · 05-21-2003, 12:51 AM

Please don't take this as a flame...

1) I have no problem with the trading AI. Really never have, though I don't trade a lot and never try to rip off the AI. Is it perfect? No. Will it be? Maybe for about 5-10% of us, but in reality no, it never willl be.

2) To be honest, I would love to see another patch or update. Is one owed? No, I don't think it is. If Markus wants to continue to give us free patches/updates great. If not, well I can wait until OOTP6 for some of the features unable to be implemented into OOTP5.

3) As is right now, the game really seems to be lacking in the AI and customizability departments. The improved interface and reports are great, but the game still plays much the same as OOTP3. I'd hope the game would have improved more than it has, but I believe I have gotten my monies worth (much more than I have from any other game I've bought).

clarnzz · 05-21-2003, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sttfrk
2) To be honest, I would love to see another patch or update. Is one owed? No, I don't think it is. If Markus wants to continue to give us free patches/updates great. If not, well I can wait until OOTP6 for some of the features unable to be implemented into OOTP5.

I could agree with this in respect to new features and AI improvements. Although regarding many of the bugs that still havn't been worked out of the game, I'm not sure whether a patch is "owed" or not, but if there wasn't one, I think alot of people would find another way to spend their $35 next year.

Moot point as Im sure a patch will be provided to fix many of the bug issues.

Hopefully the game will continue to change, evolve and improve and not pine away.......

statfreak · 05-21-2003, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by clarnzz
I could agree with this in respect to new features and AI improvements. Although regarding many of the bugs that still havn't been worked out of the game, I'm not sure whether a patch is "owed" or not, but if there wasn't one, I think alot of people would find another way to spend their $35 next year.

Moot point as Im sure a patch will be provided to fix many of the bug issues.

Hopefully the game will continue to change, evolve and improve and not pine away.......

Hmmm... maybe I am not playing enough, I really have not noticed any bugs. Of course, I still have not played Manager Mode yet and never have more than 10-15 guys at any level of the minors at any one time.

CD1083 · 05-21-2003, 01:36 AM

Trading Is An Issue. I Can Almost always trade a couple AAA guys for the #1 prospect. I can easily have the best minor league system by trading the garbage i have in mine.

clarnzz · 05-21-2003, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sttfrk
Hmmm... maybe I am not playing enough

You could always just take a look at the troubleshooting forum.

statfreak · 05-21-2003, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by clarnzz
You could always just take a look at the troubleshooting forum.

It's hard enough to keep up with the Off Topic, OOTP Mods, TPF, and Talk Sports forums.

Seriously, I've never ripped off the trade AI and have not noticed any lopsided AI to AI trades. I don't think it is broken and would be perfectly happy if it stayed the way it is. Most of the trade AI "discussion" is a matter of opinion, not really a flaw in the game.

Okay, off to the troubleshooting forum...

Erithtotl · 05-21-2003, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sttfrk

1) I have no problem with the trading AI. Really never have, though I don't trade a lot and never try to rip off the AI. Is it perfect? No. Will it be? Maybe for about 5-10% of us, but in reality no, it never willl be.
[/B]

I realize everyone plays the game differently. But I just can't understand it when people say they don't have a problem with the trading AI.

It's not a matter of trying to rip off the AI. With 5.10 you don't have to try because it tells you right up front who it will trade for your player.

As an example, I fired up a fictional league, and chose the worst player on my roster, a 30 year old, 1 star outfielder. I then offered him to the first team on the list of teams. Note, this was during free agency, when the AI team could fill most holes just by bidding relatively easily. Amongst the players offered to me:

A 4 1/2 star 25 Year old relief prospect, ratings 5 5 7 4 8 10, talents, G G G B B! Great in the clutch

I then offered a 26 year old, 2 star outfielder (with talents matching ratings).

I was offered a FIVE star Starting pitcher prospect in AAA, Talents B G G G B, C endurance. Btw, he's the #1 overall prospect in the league.

This is common. I don't want to have to sit there and evaluate every trade from both sides and decide whether I should do it or not. In a game like World Series Baseball for the XBox, bad AI is more acceptable because you're actually playing the games with pretty graphics. In a text based management sim, AI is one of the cornerstone items.

statfreak · 05-21-2003, 01:54 AM

Erithtotl, I'm sorry I see things like this posted all the time, but don't see it when I'm playing. Maybe it is just playing styles or me not paying attention.

While I hope the trade AI is tweaked, I'd be disappointed if it changed drastically from what it currently is. Just my opinion.

I do hope that Markus is able to patch/update the game enough to where everyone feels they have gotten their money's worth.

captainstarball · 05-21-2003, 02:00 AM

I agree that trading AI has serious problems. The AI is too easy to rip-off. Just for the hell of it I decided to see how many prospects I could gain by signing crap veterans and trading them off. My team in the solo league had 700+ points in top minor league systems with the next at only 100. I basically had every top 25 prospect.

Obviously that is an extreme scenario but the point is that in solo leagues, if I want a challenge I cannot allow myself to trade. This takes out a big portion of the game.

statfreak · 05-21-2003, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by captainstarball
... if I want a challenge I cannot allow myself to trade. This takes out a big portion of the game.

I disagree. Make realistic trades and resist the temptation to "rip-off" the AI.

Kelric · 05-21-2003, 02:24 AM

Erith, don't worry, you can trade me Mark Prior for Eddie Jones any day you want. Or heck, trade him to the Cubs.

Bears5122 · 05-21-2003, 02:30 AM

I don't really think too much needs to be tweaked in a new update or patch. For the most part I like everything in the game and think that many of the things I would like to see added (Spring Training, deeper Manager Mode) are something that would have to wait for next year's version.

With that said I wouldn't mind seeing the next update/patch entirely devoted to trade AI. I think the trade AI is horrible. Normally I wouldn't mind because I understand that this is very complex and difficult to code. The only reason I complain is because it is much worse then last years. I actually played v4 the other day and tested the two in terms of trades and it was night and day. I wouldn't mind seeing Markus devote his next update time to trade AI and the suggestions others have left.

Markus Heinsohn · 05-21-2003, 03:48 AM

I am still working on an update which will fix bugs and enhance numerous AI areas, like trading and roster management. Also, it'll have a couple of new reports, i.e. Minor League standings.

I am pretty certain that it'll be released early June!

Cheers,
Markus

Qrusher14242 · 05-21-2003, 04:09 AM

Awesome news Markus!

Cant wait

treedom · 05-21-2003, 07:06 AM

i'm not one to go looking for exploits in the trading AI, and i don't even trade that often in solo play...but when i offer a mid-thirties washed up MR and can get my pick at a handfull of solid 4 star prospects, i'm sorry, but there's something wrong...

the trade ai was good enough for me in v4...it had a few faults, but was pretty good overall as long as you didn't go in looking to take advantage of it...anyone who claims that it hasn't taken a major step back since is just not paying attention...

cooper_gd · 05-21-2003, 07:29 AM

Mmmmmmmmmmm... new patch

euphoria13 · 05-21-2003, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sttfrk
I disagree. Make realistic trades and resist the temptation to "rip-off" the AI.

Okay. I totally agree with you. Let's sit down, and on a case-by-case basis analyze every trade before we do it.

First, the trade must be realistic. We'll accumulate a database of all trades made in the past 10 years or so. We'll then be able to compare the trades that we have in mind with actual major league baseball trades of the past to determine if they are realistic. We'll try and find similar trades, which actually occurred.

Secondly, the trades must not "rip-off" the AI.
The assumption first must be made that baseball teams in the actual major leagues never "rip off" one another, and all trades are even.
Since we couldn't possibly be arbitrary, because we are one of the involved parties, we should create a panel, selected amongst random OOPT5 players, who we would send our league file. They would then objectively analyze each trade, which we are contemplating, then report back to us with their decisions on the fairness or lack thereof of the trades.

doubles · 05-21-2003, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by euphoria13
Okay. I totally agree with you. Let's sit down, and on a case-by-case basis analyze every trade before we do it.

First, the trade must be realistic. We'll accumulate a database of all trades made in the past 10 years or so. We'll then be able to compare the trades that we have in mind with actual major league baseball trades of the past to determine if they are realistic. We'll try and find similar trades, which actually occurred.

Secondly, the trades must not "rip-off" the AI.
The assumption first must be made that baseball teams in the actual major leagues never "rip off" one another, and all trades are even.
Since we couldn't possibly be arbitrary, because we are one of the involved parties, we should create a panel, selected amongst random OOPT5 players, who we would send our league file. They would then objectively analyze each trade, which we are contemplating, then report back to us with their decisions on the fairness or lack thereof of the trades.

Sounds like a good idea to me

markprior22 · 05-21-2003, 08:30 AM

I find the statement "resist the temptation to rip off the AI" troubling. How do you police yourself? Can you never make a trade if you feel you are getting the best of the deal? You would never make a trade if you feel you aren't benefitting. Like another poster stated, you are given a list of players up front that the AI is willing to trade. Kind of tough to ignore that. I like the new trading screen but I also am looking forward to the next patch/update to see how much the AI is improved. It's never going to be perfect for everyone but I would rather it be too tough than too easy for the sake of solo gamers.

05-21-2003, 12:51 AM	#2
statfreak Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 2,434	Please don't take this as a flame... 1) I have no problem with the trading AI. Really never have, though I don't trade a lot and never try to rip off the AI. Is it perfect? No. Will it be? Maybe for about 5-10% of us, but in reality no, it never willl be. 2) To be honest, I would love to see another patch or update. Is one owed? No, I don't think it is. If Markus wants to continue to give us free patches/updates great. If not, well I can wait until OOTP6 for some of the features unable to be implemented into OOTP5. 3) As is right now, the game really seems to be lacking in the AI and customizability departments. The improved interface and reports are great, but the game still plays much the same as OOTP3. I'd hope the game would have improved more than it has, but I believe I have gotten my monies worth (much more than I have from any other game I've bought). __________________ Roll out the barrel!

05-21-2003, 01:54 AM	#9
statfreak Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 2,434	Erithtotl, I'm sorry I see things like this posted all the time, but don't see it when I'm playing. Maybe it is just playing styles or me not paying attention. While I hope the trade AI is tweaked, I'd be disappointed if it changed drastically from what it currently is. Just my opinion. I do hope that Markus is able to patch/update the game enough to where everyone feels they have gotten their money's worth. __________________ Roll out the barrel!

05-21-2003, 07:06 AM	#16
treedom Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: Transylvania Posts: 2,900	i'm not one to go looking for exploits in the trading AI, and i don't even trade that often in solo play...but when i offer a mid-thirties washed up MR and can get my pick at a handfull of solid 4 star prospects, i'm sorry, but there's something wrong... the trade ai was good enough for me in v4...it had a few faults, but was pretty good overall as long as you didn't go in looking to take advantage of it...anyone who claims that it hasn't taken a major step back since is just not paying attention... __________________ A rake and a roustabout.

05-21-2003, 07:29 AM	#17
cooper_gd All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: PopBunker.net Posts: 1,011	Mmmmmmmmmmm... new patch __________________

05-21-2003, 12:07 AM	#1
Erithtotl Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 330	Whats happening with this game and updates? Maybe I've missed something, but I've seen NOTHING about what future updates are in the work and when we might see the next patch. I know Markus went on vacation but that was a month ago, I thought he was only gone for a week or two, maybe I'm wrong. I'm extremely disappointed in the game right now. The new 5.10 trading interface has completely lobotomized the single player game. The AI will trade super prospects for crap 1 star 35 year old middle relievers on a consistent basis, and it's just ruined the game for me. I played HUNDREDS of seasons of OOTP4 and even though I won almost every year, I at least had to work at it, and I didn't have to put down all sorts of 'house rules' to keep it fun. If I wanted to get a top prospect, I'd usually have to offer a top-quality player to get him. If prospect development had been a little more erratic in OOTP4, then the game would have been even more challenging. Honestly, was there any user testing at all on the 5.10 patch before it was released? Any regular player would have spotted the problems almost immediately. I'm sure I'll get flamed from some people for this. I've heard it before: 'We're always working to improve the trading AI'. But to me that sounds like denial. I don't think anyone can argue the AI is essentially non-existant at this point for trading, and has taken significant steps backwards since the initial release of OOTP5. I just want to get the game back to where it was FUN. I really enjoyed the first patch. It only needed a few tweaks for it to really be really good. OOTP 5.10 just gives it all away. In fact, each patch has made the game less challenging, to the point where it takes no skill at all, and this is on the hardest difficulty levels. It would almost be worth it for me to roll back to an earlier patch, but thats not really realistic, as 1) I'm in an online league and we use v. 5.10, 2) I want all the other fixes and tweaks that have gone in the patches and 3) I don't even know where I would get the old versions. I used to sit for hours playing through seasons of OOTP4. I came back to the game again and again, even though it seemed I'd gotten everything out of it I could. I did the same with the first two patches of OOTP5. I'd just like to get the game back to where I could enjoy it again.

05-21-2003, 01:36 AM	#5
CD1083 All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,590	Trading Is An Issue. I Can Almost always trade a couple AAA guys for the #1 prospect. I can easily have the best minor league system by trading the garbage i have in mine.

05-21-2003, 02:00 AM	#10
captainstarball Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 112	I agree that trading AI has serious problems. The AI is too easy to rip-off. Just for the hell of it I decided to see how many prospects I could gain by signing crap veterans and trading them off. My team in the solo league had 700+ points in top minor league systems with the next at only 100. I basically had every top 25 prospect. Obviously that is an extreme scenario but the point is that in solo leagues, if I want a challenge I cannot allow myself to trade. This takes out a big portion of the game.

05-21-2003, 02:24 AM	#12
Kelric Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Greater Boston Area Posts: 3,992	Erith, don't worry, you can trade me Mark Prior for Eddie Jones any day you want. Or heck, trade him to the Cubs.

05-21-2003, 02:30 AM	#13
Bears5122 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 850	I don't really think too much needs to be tweaked in a new update or patch. For the most part I like everything in the game and think that many of the things I would like to see added (Spring Training, deeper Manager Mode) are something that would have to wait for next year's version. With that said I wouldn't mind seeing the next update/patch entirely devoted to trade AI. I think the trade AI is horrible. Normally I wouldn't mind because I understand that this is very complex and difficult to code. The only reason I complain is because it is much worse then last years. I actually played v4 the other day and tested the two in terms of trades and it was night and day. I wouldn't mind seeing Markus devote his next update time to trade AI and the suggestions others have left.

05-21-2003, 03:48 AM	#14
Markus Heinsohn Developer OOTP Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 24,803	I am still working on an update which will fix bugs and enhance numerous AI areas, like trading and roster management. Also, it'll have a couple of new reports, i.e. Minor League standings. I am pretty certain that it'll be released early June! Cheers, Markus

05-21-2003, 04:09 AM	#15
Qrusher14242 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: CA Posts: 1,253	Awesome news Markus! Cant wait

05-21-2003, 08:30 AM	#20
markprior22 All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: springfield, illinois Posts: 1,243	I find the statement "resist the temptation to rip off the AI" troubling. How do you police yourself? Can you never make a trade if you feel you are getting the best of the deal? You would never make a trade if you feel you aren't benefitting. Like another poster stated, you are given a list of players up front that the AI is willing to trade. Kind of tough to ignore that. I like the new trading screen but I also am looking forward to the next patch/update to see how much the AI is improved. It's never going to be perfect for everyone but I would rather it be too tough than too easy for the sake of solo gamers.