Sheesh!

[rburgh]

Sewell? Good heavens! He was a nice player, but the Rebirth era featured some truly great outfielders - Ruth, Ott, Paul Waner, Simmons, Goslin, Medwick, Cuyler, and maybe the greatest that no one remembers, Oscar Charleston.

Meanwhile, my choice would be to train Sewell up at 2B, but by the time he is trained up, Cupid Childs will have been issued and he will be relegated to a bench player for most teams. Not a good choice of toppers for this era.

[PunishedF2P]

Originally Posted by rburgh

Sewell? Good heavens! He was a nice player, but the Rebirth era featured some truly great outfielders - Ruth, Ott, Paul Waner, Simmons, Goslin, Medwick, Cuyler, and maybe the greatest that no one remembers, Oscar Charleston.

Meanwhile, my choice would be to train Sewell up at 2B, but by the time he is trained up, Cupid Childs will have been issued and he will be relegated to a bench player for most teams. Not a good choice of toppers for this era.

100% agree. Especially considering he was the 2nd SS reward for the same mission set. Still a nice card.

Ted Williams and Roger Hornsby were nice toppers for the first two rebirth missions, though.

Charleston is not really an option, didn't play in the majors. Negro League stats and exhibition stats are way overrated; the average White major leaguer back then was significantly better than their Negro League counterparts. There were certainly stars who would have done well in the MLB, like Charleston, but they faced so much inferior competition it's tough to say really.

[rburgh]

I disagree heartily with you. Many of the black players faced off against white major leaguers in the (Cuban) winter league and showed that they belonged. Paige pitched effectively in the Major Leagues in his 40's and even threw 3 shutout innings for the Royals in his 50's. And the influx of black stars in the 50's made it plain that the Negro leagues were legit.

BTW, I would not have complained if Sewell had been the first Rebirth topper followed by Williams and Hornsby in either order.

[PunishedF2P]

Originally Posted by rburgh

I disagree heartily with you. Many of the black players faced off against white major leaguers in the (Cuban) winter league and showed that they belonged. Paige pitched effectively in the Major Leagues in his 40's and even threw 3 shutout innings for the Royals in his 50's. And the influx of black stars in the 50's made it plain that the Negro leagues were legit.

BTW, I would not have complained if Sewell had been the first Rebirth topper followed by Williams and Hornsby in either order.

You said you disagree, but most of what you said is not in conflict with what I wrote.

In my post, I mention that there were NL stars that definitely would have been great MLB players (like Paige and Charleston), so we agree there - but we don't know how good they really would have been because they played such inferior competition.

When they did play White ballplayers, it was in winter ball or exhibition - that's similar to taking spring training stats seriously, if we're being honest. It's not meaningless, but it's not telling us how guys would actually perform in the MLB, either.

And I 100% agree - they messed the order up on the Rebirth rewards Should have had Ted Williams or Roger Hornsby as the final reward.

[LeeD]

The Negro League issue needs to be put in a different perspective. It's not so much a question of whether players like Paige, Gibson, or Charleston would have been dominant in the major leagues. It's more a question of how many black players we never heard of would have developed into quality major league players had there not been a color barrier for three generations. So, imagine that Oscar Charleston AND six other guys we never heard of made their major league debuts in 1920. Seven more in 1921, seven more in 1922, etc. We can see what happened in the 1950s once major league teams started seeking out and developing talented black players. It could and would have happened much earlier regardless of whether any one of those Negro League players was an all-time great.

[rburgh]

We happily use "stars" from the 19th century, when the depth of talent was probably even worse than the depth of NeL talent in the 20th century, since the idea of playing baseball for a living in the 19th century wasn't highly regarded. If we're willing to accept Orator Shafer, Dan Brouthers, Tip O'Neill, Jack Glasscock, and Monte Ward as people who would have made big impacts on baseball in any era, how can we possibly exclude Charleston from that discussion?

[Kushiel]

It's all fantasy, folks.

[rburgh]

That was one of the several reasons I thought Charleston was appropriate for that topper slot.

[PunishedF2P]

Originally Posted by rburgh

We happily use "stars" from the 19th century, when the depth of talent was probably even worse than the depth of NeL talent in the 20th century, since the idea of playing baseball for a living in the 19th century wasn't highly regarded. If we're willing to accept Orator Shafer, Dan Brouthers, Tip O'Neill, Jack Glasscock, and Monte Ward as people who would have made big impacts on baseball in any era, how can we possibly exclude Charleston from that discussion?

For this mission set? Because it's called immortal seasons, and he never played a season in the MLB, let alone had an 'immortal one', lol

[rburgh]

Paige has an Immortal card, in the same Rebirth set. Who did he pitch for in MLB before 1947?

[PunishedF2P]

Originally Posted by rburgh

Paige has an Immortal card, in the same Rebirth set. Who did he pitch for in MLB before 1947?

True. The Paige card is for 1934, a Negro League season. Yeah, that card shouldn't be there, either. I guess by 'Immortal Seasons' they just meant it as a cool sounding mission name, and not actually related to immortal seasons, lmao. In which case, sure, Charleston fits perfectly then.

[bailey]

deleted.