League Democracy?

DiversionX · 05-20-2003, 08:45 AM

I don't know if it's a new concept or not, but the BIG Baseball league is trying it out:

An OOTP5 league for the owners, BY the owners. Check out this excerpt from the rules:

Quote:

It will take a vote of 75% majority to change an established rule and a vote of a simple majority plus the blessing of the commissioner to create a rule. Owner acceptance and kicking out owners will require a simple majority and the blessing of the commissioner

Plus, the commissioner does not own or run a team!, making him more of a facilitator or chief secretary than a commissioner. If this league seems interesting to you, check us out at http://www.big-baseball.com or drop us an e-mail at commish@big-baseball.com

CommishJoe · 05-20-2003, 09:26 AM

Yeah, the TLB does something similar for the most part. Some rules are put in place without a league vote for the good of the league. For example, we had an owner making $22m/1 year offers to FAs, then offering them "realistic" extensions to keep them. Therefore, we put a rule in place that says if you sign a FA to a 1 year contract, the extension you offer must be no less then 10% of the signing price.

Other then rules like that, a democracy works well for a league.

Carlton · 05-20-2003, 10:30 AM

Will the commish go by the name of Bud Selig as well?

DiversionX · 05-20-2003, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Will the commish go by the name of Bud Selig as well?

Now that's an interesting comment, I'm curious as to why you made it.

The problem I have with most leagues is that the commissioner runs a team as well, generally making him the only person who has complete and unadulterated access to the league file, generally considered a pretty big advantage. Also, the commissioner is usually the only person who runs things and makes rules, also giving him a potential advantage.

I will not be running a team, and as far as I know the only rule I have set in stone as unchangeable is the one about trading draft picks - specifically because I've seen what a nightmare it can be. Other than that, the owners will be the ones that will make the vast majority of decisions of this league.

*edited because my stupid computer left out a bracket

mad0die · 05-20-2003, 11:00 AM

The MBBA is not designated a "democracy" league as such, but we always take input from owners regarding league rule changes. If an issue is garnering enough discussion, we will put it to league vote where we require a 2/3 majority. Just recently, we put a vote out to allow trading of draft picks. It did not pass.

I would think that all successfuly OOTP on-line leagues entail a healthy amount of democracy. The owners after all make up the league.

We also operate with a Governing Board rather than sole Commissioner so we do have more than one person with the full, unadulterated access to the league. The Board also debates issues that come up from the owners. It has worked quite well.

blmeanie · 05-20-2003, 12:09 PM

Pure democracy is interesting, please post how it goes over time.

In Green Monsta, I commish, and IMO we have a similar environment as stated for MBBA. Issues come up from time to time and I use different owners as resources around the league and propose change and sometimes vote, sometimes not (role of commish I guess).

As far as how a commish has the advantage of owning a team, without a doubt, the best maintained team is likely to be the commish's team. On the other side, total access is relative. The league files are available moments after the sims are completed so owners have the opportunity to download and have total access as well.

League rules imposed on myself as an owner:
My team is not allowed to participate in Free Agency during the offseson

My team is not allowed to participate in our "blind bid auction" free agency period between offseason free agency and opening day.

These rules are in place to take away some of the advantage I might have by seeing others' offers.

Please post back with any issues on the total democracy approach, I think many will be interested.

Chris Johnson · 05-20-2003, 12:20 PM

Our league owners have the same access I do to league file information. They just can't execute certain functions like trades. Plus, other people sim games other than the Commish (me), so I am not the only one manipulating the files.

The only area that I see where there could be a conflict is the RFA process we have set up. Since we haven't gone through it yet, I haven't figured out a system that will allow me to bid on RFAs without seeing other owner's bids for the same player.

LivnLegend · 05-20-2003, 12:27 PM

Good luck with your league.
This concept of Commissioner having unfair advantage running a team is nothing new here on these boards. All I can say is just put some thought into which leagues you join.
No knock against the GMs skills of the Commissioners in the leagues I am in but none of them have won a championship title in the league they run!

As commissioner of the USBA, I very rarely trade at all and only when requests sent to me. I never make the first offer and rarely counter offer. I let the CPU select my draft picks so as not to compromise lists that are sent to me. I participate in free agency but never sign any name players until after the first 5 days and then only make offers to players with no offers after 5 days. As competitive a person as I am, I'd really rather not win the title in the USBA. I have gotten a lot of pleasure over the fact that four different owners have won over the past four seasons - spread the wealth & fun.

As far as rule changes, occasionally we vote such things. In some instances a majority wins (salary cap issue). In some instances a 2/3 majority is needed (team relocation). Minor rules tweaks are instituted on my own but the league constitution was very well established from the beginning, which makes league votes as rare as necktie in David Wells’ closet. The establishment of a good set of rules on the onset is very key. We’ve had a couple other leagues ask permission to use ours as a basis for their new leagues – a high compliment indeed.

mad0die · 05-20-2003, 12:54 PM

Maybe the MBBA is kind of unique in how it is run, but I don't feel any real advantage as the Commish compared to other owners. We currently have 2 others who sim games (and thereby have the league password) so we can provide them all live. We have our beloved Chairman who edits the Ammy's and inputs the defectors. We don't use team passwords other than during FA. We all write articles about our teams and players so others can get familiar. I also think the live sims help everyone in the league learn about other players as well.

As a holder of the league password, could I cheat? Yes. Would I? Heck no. I feel the same about the others I have entrusted the password to. Why play in a league where you feel the simmers are cheating?

blmeanie · 05-20-2003, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mad0die

As a holder of the league password, could I cheat? Yes. Would I? Heck no. I feel the same about the others I have entrusted the password to. Why play in a league where you feel the simmers are cheating?

That is the key to it all. No more need be said

IatricSB · 05-20-2003, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DiversionX
I don't know if it's a new concept or not, but the BIG Baseball league is trying it out:

An OOTP5 league for the owners, BY the owners. Check out this excerpt from the rules:

This was the concept that started the Boys of Summer League (currently in our 15th season and still have 11 of our original 16 owners). I wanted to have a league for the owners and run by the owners. No rule is implemented without a large majority voting for it and also we try to never change a rule without a one season advanced warning (rule takes affect in the next season).

Good luck with your league....

spleen1015 · 05-20-2003, 02:06 PM

^^^^ Stacy Bond lives!

Dean Gordon · 05-20-2003, 02:09 PM

I dont add or change a rule without extensive consultation with the ownership....

Dean
Commish - EBL, GMC, NABL

CommishJoe · 05-20-2003, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whoever the heck said it!!
we try to never change a rule without a one season advanced warning (rule takes affect in the next season).

That's also key. If a rule changes, ensure owners have enough notice to they can make whatever adjustments they feel is necessary.

As for the commish running a team, we have 5 league officials, all that have the league password and can run sims. No rule change is put into effect unless all 5 agree it's good, and, most of the time, getting the owners' buy in as well. Also, we had this argument a while back and got no where, so I don't think I want to go there again

treedom · 05-20-2003, 02:16 PM

weird...you were quoting Iatric, but the quote is attributed to Scott Vibert...sorry...just an observation...carry on

Dean Gordon · 05-20-2003, 02:29 PM

Quote:

This concept of Commissioner having unfair advantage running a team is nothing new here on these boards. All I can say is just put some thought into which leagues you join.
No knock against the GMs skills of the Commissioners in the leagues I am in but none of them have won a championship title in the league they run!

Heh - in EBL, GMC and NABL, I have won a whopping total of 3 titles (1 in GMC, 2 in NABL)... but this is over 26 seasons of combined play.... I think I am the most damn Cursed owner in the game... 3 titles in something like 47 combined seasons...

Usually, commishes are smart owners. It goes without saying that all the commishes in all the leagues I have been in were among the brightest I have ever seen (Joe Ramsey, Eric Wedge, Tom Shaffer to name a few)... smart trades, great initial drafts - obviously their teams would be good.

Also, commishes tend to participate more in their teams. They schedule promotions all the time. Is this an advantage? Not really - in EBL, 85% of the league are active sim in and sim out, and in GMC I think its closer to 90%.

As for rule changes, a season or so notice is a good thing so owners can prepare properly for it.....

CommishJoe · 05-20-2003, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by treedom
weird...you were quoting Iatric, but the quote is attributed to Scott Vibert...sorry...just an observation...carry on

Better?

Carlton · 05-20-2003, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DiversionX
Now that's an interesting comment, I'm curious as to why you made it.

The problem I have with most leagues is that the commissioner runs a team as well, generally making him the only person who has complete and unadulterated access to the league file, generally considered a pretty big advantage. Also, the commissioner is usually the only person who runs things and makes rules, also giving him a potential advantage.

I will not be running a team, and as far as I know the only rule I have set in stone as unchangeable is the one about trading draft picks - specifically because I've seen what a nightmare it can be. Other than that, the owners will be the ones that will make the vast majority of decisions of this league.

*edited because my stupid computer left out a bracket

It was strictly 'tongue in cheek', and did not involve Seligs' affiliation of the Brewers (which officialy he doesn't, unofficially, well we all know that one)

I meant no offense to you or your league.

My dry sacarastic quip was just saying that MLB is run by the owners, regardless of Selig's position, which is what your league is doing.

So again I apologize if you felt I was clowning on you or your league, it was not my intention.

It was a worded beanball toward Mr. Selig only

Dwolfson20 · 05-20-2003, 09:55 PM

Although the commish does run a team, FAST is basically a pure democracy - the commish doesn't have any more power than any owner. The simming is done during the year by a group of five or six owners who take turns. Anyone can propose a rules change and it needs only a simple majority to take effect.

deh34 · 05-21-2003, 03:23 AM

The WBL (World Baseball League) can be considered a democracy. Besides sim scheduling, everything can be voted on. And any owner can call for a vote at any time. You can check out our rules here:

http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/deh34/Rules.html

05-20-2003, 09:26 AM	#2
CommishJoe Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 5,238	Yeah, the TLB does something similar for the most part. Some rules are put in place without a league vote for the good of the league. For example, we had an owner making $22m/1 year offers to FAs, then offering them "realistic" extensions to keep them. Therefore, we put a rule in place that says if you sign a FA to a 1 year contract, the extension you offer must be no less then 10% of the signing price. Other then rules like that, a democracy works well for a league. __________________ Joe Success isn’t owned. It’s leased. And rent is due every day.

05-20-2003, 10:30 AM	#3
Carlton Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 3,765	Will the commish go by the name of Bud Selig as well? __________________ "I am at that stage of my life where I keep myself out of arguments. I am 100% self sufficient spiritually, emotionally & financially. Even if you say 1+1=5, you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. Enjoy!"

05-20-2003, 11:00 AM	#5
mad0die All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: TX Posts: 913	The MBBA is not designated a "democracy" league as such, but we always take input from owners regarding league rule changes. If an issue is garnering enough discussion, we will put it to league vote where we require a 2/3 majority. Just recently, we put a vote out to allow trading of draft picks. It did not pass. I would think that all successfuly OOTP on-line leagues entail a healthy amount of democracy. The owners after all make up the league. We also operate with a Governing Board rather than sole Commissioner so we do have more than one person with the full, unadulterated access to the league. The Board also debates issues that come up from the owners. It has worked quite well. __________________ Commish GUBA

05-20-2003, 12:09 PM	#6
blmeanie All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Atlanta Posts: 1,044	Pure democracy is interesting, please post how it goes over time. In Green Monsta, I commish, and IMO we have a similar environment as stated for MBBA. Issues come up from time to time and I use different owners as resources around the league and propose change and sometimes vote, sometimes not (role of commish I guess). As far as how a commish has the advantage of owning a team, without a doubt, the best maintained team is likely to be the commish's team. On the other side, total access is relative. The league files are available moments after the sims are completed so owners have the opportunity to download and have total access as well. League rules imposed on myself as an owner: My team is not allowed to participate in Free Agency during the offseson My team is not allowed to participate in our "blind bid auction" free agency period between offseason free agency and opening day. These rules are in place to take away some of the advantage I might have by seeing others' offers. Please post back with any issues on the total democracy approach, I think many will be interested. __________________ blmeanie email me at blmeanie Above link works for some email client programs but not all, email me at blmeanie33@earthlink.net

05-20-2003, 12:54 PM	#9
mad0die All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: TX Posts: 913	Maybe the MBBA is kind of unique in how it is run, but I don't feel any real advantage as the Commish compared to other owners. We currently have 2 others who sim games (and thereby have the league password) so we can provide them all live. We have our beloved Chairman who edits the Ammy's and inputs the defectors. We don't use team passwords other than during FA. We all write articles about our teams and players so others can get familiar. I also think the live sims help everyone in the league learn about other players as well. As a holder of the league password, could I cheat? Yes. Would I? Heck no. I feel the same about the others I have entrusted the password to. Why play in a league where you feel the simmers are cheating? __________________ Commish GUBA

05-20-2003, 12:20 PM	#7
Chris Johnson Major Leagues Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 360	Our league owners have the same access I do to league file information. They just can't execute certain functions like trades. Plus, other people sim games other than the Commish (me), so I am not the only one manipulating the files. The only area that I see where there could be a conflict is the RFA process we have set up. Since we haven't gone through it yet, I haven't figured out a system that will allow me to bid on RFAs without seeing other owner's bids for the same player.

05-20-2003, 12:27 PM	#8
LivnLegend Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: 100% pure adrenaline! Posts: 5,624	Good luck with your league. This concept of Commissioner having unfair advantage running a team is nothing new here on these boards. All I can say is just put some thought into which leagues you join. No knock against the GMs skills of the Commissioners in the leagues I am in but none of them have won a championship title in the league they run! As commissioner of the USBA, I very rarely trade at all and only when requests sent to me. I never make the first offer and rarely counter offer. I let the CPU select my draft picks so as not to compromise lists that are sent to me. I participate in free agency but never sign any name players until after the first 5 days and then only make offers to players with no offers after 5 days. As competitive a person as I am, I'd really rather not win the title in the USBA. I have gotten a lot of pleasure over the fact that four different owners have won over the past four seasons - spread the wealth & fun. As far as rule changes, occasionally we vote such things. In some instances a majority wins (salary cap issue). In some instances a 2/3 majority is needed (team relocation). Minor rules tweaks are instituted on my own but the league constitution was very well established from the beginning, which makes league votes as rare as necktie in David Wells’ closet. The establishment of a good set of rules on the onset is very key. We’ve had a couple other leagues ask permission to use ours as a basis for their new leagues – a high compliment indeed.

05-20-2003, 02:06 PM	#12
spleen1015 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,008	^^^^ Stacy Bond lives!

05-20-2003, 02:09 PM	#13
Dean Gordon Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: vancouver, canada Posts: 354	yup I dont add or change a rule without extensive consultation with the ownership.... Dean Commish - EBL, GMC, NABL

05-20-2003, 02:16 PM	#15
treedom Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: Transylvania Posts: 2,900	weird...you were quoting Iatric, but the quote is attributed to Scott Vibert...sorry...just an observation...carry on __________________ A rake and a roustabout.

05-20-2003, 09:55 PM	#19
Dwolfson20 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Not St. Louis Posts: 2,872	Although the commish does run a team, FAST is basically a pure democracy - the commish doesn't have any more power than any owner. The simming is done during the year by a group of five or six owners who take turns. Anyone can propose a rules change and it needs only a simple majority to take effect. __________________

05-21-2003, 03:23 AM	#20
deh34 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 120	The WBL (World Baseball League) can be considered a democracy. Besides sim scheduling, everything can be voted on. And any owner can call for a vote at any time. You can check out our rules here: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/deh34/Rules.html