When should I be promoting INT Complex Players?

[fcdankmemes]

Have two specific guys in my international complex that look like studs, don't want to mess their careers up by promoting them too early, but I also don't want to be wasting their time there. Is there a certain age I should look to start promoting those guys into rookie leagues, or do I wait for the game to do it for me?

[Sweed]

You see the "ratings relative to MLB" tab? Change that to whatever your lowest rookie league is and see how your scout thinks they would fare in that league. Some will claim this is "gamey" but I don't see why? You are currently looking at your scouting departments projection on how it thinks your player will end up when fully developed. No reason that scouting department can't give an opinion on how a player would do at other levels. Hell, that's part of their job. Once you get that opinion then it will be up to you to decide if that projection means they are good enough to move up or not.

Just be sure. This is the most unsure time as there are no stats go go by. Once moved up they can't be moved back

I don't think the game will do it for you if you have yourself set to do MiLB promotions and demotions unless, they reach the max IC age of 20.

[fcdankmemes]

Originally Posted by Sweed

You see the "ratings relative to MLB" tab? Change that to whatever your lowest rookie league is and see how your scout thinks they would fare in that league. Some will claim this is "gamey" but I don't see why? You are currently looking at your scouting departments projection on how it thinks your player will end up when fully developed. No reason that scouting department can't give an opinion on how a player would do at other levels. Hell, that's part of their job. Once you get that opinion then it will be up to you to decide if that projection means they are good enough to move up or not.

Just be sure. This is the most unsure time as there are no stats go go by. Once moved up they can't be moved back

I don't think the game will do it for you if you have yourself set to do MiLB promotions and demotions unless, they reach the max IC age of 20.

Don't know why I never thought about that. Thanks! That helps.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Sweed

You see the "ratings relative to MLB" tab? Change that to whatever your lowest rookie league is and see how your scout thinks they would fare in that league. Some will claim this is "gamey" but I don't see why? You are currently looking at your scouting departments projection on how it thinks your player will end up when fully developed. No reason that scouting department can't give an opinion on how a player would do at other levels. Hell, that's part of their job. Once you get that opinion then it will be up to you to decide if that projection means they are good enough to move up or not.

Just be sure. This is the most unsure time as there are no stats go go by. Once moved up they can't be moved back

I don't think the game will do it for you if you have yourself set to do MiLB promotions and demotions unless, they reach the max IC age of 20.

This is a bit why I am intrigued about the possibility of deleting the DSL league, and creating a developmental league/tournament strictly for International Complex players. This is how you can generate stats for these players and not worry about them being overmatched. My thought on this is these players are at the lowest level there is within an organization, and therefore should really ever be overmatched, and if they are, the just aren't going to make it.

In reality, I'd say the International Complex really IS the DSL. I maybe wish they had designed it this way in the default MLB setup, rather than having the actual DSL as it is.

I still haven't decided for sure, but I am most definitely intrigued by this possibility.

[Dave Stieb II]

Originally Posted by Sweed

You see the "ratings relative to MLB" tab? Change that to whatever your lowest rookie league is and see how your scout thinks they would fare in that league. Some will claim this is "gamey" but I don't see why? You are currently looking at your scouting departments projection on how it thinks your player will end up when fully developed. No reason that scouting department can't give an opinion on how a player would do at other levels. Hell, that's part of their job. Once you get that opinion then it will be up to you to decide if that projection means they are good enough to move up or not.

Just be sure. This is the most unsure time as there are no stats go go by. Once moved up they can't be moved back

I don't think the game will do it for you if you have yourself set to do MiLB promotions and demotions unless, they reach the max IC age of 20.

Sometimes I read these threads and have to pick my jaw off the floor.
How anyone could consider doing this 'gamey' is beyond me.
IRL that is exactly what your player development staff/farm director/scouts do!
(Well, more the first two but since we don't interact with those people the scout will have to do)
They advise where they think a player is at in on his development curve and suggest when it is time to promote.
Geezuz! Gamey?

[Dave Stieb II]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

This is a bit why I am intrigued about the possibility of deleting the DSL league, and creating a developmental league/tournament strictly for International Complex players. This is how you can generate stats for these players and not worry about them being overmatched. My thought on this is these players are at the lowest level there is within an organization, and therefore should really ever be overmatched, and if they are, the just aren't going to make it.

In reality, I'd say the International Complex really IS the DSL. I maybe wish they had designed it this way in the default MLB setup, rather than having the actual DSL as it is.

I still haven't decided for sure, but I am most definitely intrigued by this possibility.

Except that the International complex and the DSL both do exist IRL so I'd prefer OOTP continue to reflect that as closely as possible.

[Dave Stieb II]

Originally Posted by fcdankmemes

Don't know why I never thought about that. Thanks! That helps.

I'm very 'hands on' with my minor league system and I use this 'tool' at every rung on the minor league ladder.
It is not 'gamey' at all.
It is the equivalant of your player development staff and farm director advising you on who they believe is ready for the next step up, and when.
I combine it with stats to make the most educated judgements I can.
It is the way baseball works IRL, too.
A GM or farm director is not sitting in his office, pouring over stats, and deciding when to promote players.
He is constantly getting feedback from the player development staff.
So my advice is to use it freely and never, ever consider it 'gamey'.
It is entirely realistic.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Dave Stieb II

Except that the International complex and the DSL both do exist IRL so I'd prefer OOTP continue to reflect that as closely as possible.

Good point...I was thinking about ages of players who are in the DSL...I suppose the DSL could be the one minor league where an age cap might be appropriate. I don't think there is one IRL, but I also don't think there are really any players older than 20 yrs. I think even the 20 year-old are rare, and usually pitchers....but I am not entirely sure since there is seemingly limited information on most of these clubs. I am just looking to make things as realistic as possible, so I don't know. I am wondering about an age cap at complex leagues also, but I don't know. Perhaps with the 3 year service limits, older players at these levels will naturally get weeded out, but when you start a new MLB save, there are some pretty old players there for these levels.

[Dave Stieb II]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Good point...I was thinking about ages of players who are in the DSL...I suppose the DSL could be the one minor league where an age cap might be appropriate. I don't think there is one IRL, but I also don't think there are really any players older than 20 yrs. I think even the 20 year-old are rare, and usually pitchers....but I am not entirely sure since there is seemingly limited information on most of these clubs. I am just looking to make things as realistic as possible, so I don't know. I am wondering about an age cap at complex leagues also, but I don't know. Perhaps with the 3 year service limits, older players at these levels will naturally get weeded out, but when you start a new MLB save, there are some pretty old players there for these levels.

Yes, the elimination of short season A- ball basically took a rung out of the development ladder.
Now you have fairly polished college players mixing with the rawest of high school draft picks at the domestic complex.
Perhaps they've figured out how to make it work IRL but it creates a bit of a problem for us. If you set too young an age limit for the domestic complex team, then a lot of college draftees are going to be left in 'no man's land' between the complex and full season A ball.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Dave Stieb II

Sometimes I read these threads and have to pick my jaw off the floor.
How anyone could consider doing this 'gamey' is beyond me.
IRL that is exactly what your player development staff/farm director/scouts do!
(Well, more the first two but since we don't interact with those people the scout will have to do)
They advise where they think a player is at in on his development curve and suggest when it is time to promote.
Geezuz! Gamey?

I don't think it is a widespread opinion but, on occasion I run across a discussion where someone will point out, almost brag, how they don't use "relative to league x" option because it is an exploit. Never understood it either


I look over my minors every month on the first. I use the relative button one level at a time, to see the player's ratings at that level and if the players the level below have developed enough to move up. If their stats aren't "up to their ratings" they stay put for now. IE
bring up relative to AAA and look at AAA and AA players. Move onto AA and look at AA and HA. etc. until I get through my system.

[fcdankmemes]

Originally Posted by Sweed

I don't think it is a widespread opinion but, on occasion I run across a discussion where someone will point out, almost brag, how they don't use "relative to league x" option because it is an exploit. Never understood it either


I look over my minors every month on the first. I use the relative button one level at a time, to see the player's ratings at that level and if the players the level below have developed enough to move up. If their stats aren't "up to their ratings" they stay put for now. IE
bring up relative to AAA and look at AAA and AA players. Move onto AA and look at AA and HA. etc. until I get through my system.

In that situation, when do you determine that a player is ‘too good’ for the league they’re in? Specific ratings you look at, stats, etc?

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Sweed

I don't think it is a widespread opinion but, on occasion I run across a discussion where someone will point out, almost brag, how they don't use "relative to league x" option because it is an exploit. Never understood it either


I look over my minors every month on the first. I use the relative button one level at a time, to see the player's ratings at that level and if the players the level below have developed enough to move up. If their stats aren't "up to their ratings" they stay put for now. IE
bring up relative to AAA and look at AAA and AA players. Move onto AA and look at AA and HA. etc. until I get through my system.

One thing I do think could help authenticity/realism is if ratings were relative to levels as opposed to specific leagues. I realize that creates an issue with international and independent leagues, but it seems to me most scouts would be telling you how they think a given player might perform at AA…not specifically within the Eastern League.

[Pelican]

I’m a newbie still at the promotion of DSL players, just learning (the hard way) that it’s a one-way street. Another reason to be cautious about DSL performance is that it’s a big league, lots of teams, lots of teenagers with way different ability and performance. So your stud hitter may have mashed against a few less talented pitchers, meaning performance will even out, and maybe not ready for promotion. Or your stud pitcher may have been mowing down sub-par hitters on weak teams. So I need a larger sample size, and look for guys with solid stats who maybe are a year or two older than the league average, seem to be filled out, nothing more to prove. Remember IRL you may well be taking a teenager who has never been to the States away from his family and girlfriend and coach, which are subjective reasons why promotion is a slow process, and why rushing a kid can backfire. I still question in my mind whether all this investment and training of international players for so many years is worth it, when so few make it to MLB. And then you see that Miguel Cabrera or Mariano Rivera type guy, and you understand why.

[Curve Ball Dave]

Originally Posted by Dave Stieb II

Yes, the elimination of short season A- ball basically took a rung out of the development ladder.
Now you have fairly polished college players mixing with the rawest of high school draft picks at the domestic complex.
Perhaps they've figured out how to make it work IRL but it creates a bit of a problem for us. If you set too young an age limit for the domestic complex team, then a lot of college draftees are going to be left in 'no man's land' between the complex and full season A ball.

Which is why I have SSA in my baseball universe

[fcdankmemes]

Originally Posted by Pelican

I’m a newbie still at the promotion of DSL players, just learning (the hard way) that it’s a one-way street. Another reason to be cautious about DSL performance is that it’s a big league, lots of teams, lots of teenagers with way different ability and performance. So your stud hitter may have mashed against a few less talented pitchers, meaning performance will even out, and maybe not ready for promotion. Or your stud pitcher may have been mowing down sub-par hitters on weak teams. So I need a larger sample size, and look for guys with solid stats who maybe are a year or two older than the league average, seem to be filled out, nothing more to prove. Remember IRL you may well be taking a teenager who has never been to the States away from his family and girlfriend and coach, which are subjective reasons why promotion is a slow process, and why rushing a kid can backfire. I still question in my mind whether all this investment and training of international players for so many years is worth it, when so few make it to MLB. And then you see that Miguel Cabrera or Mariano Rivera type guy, and you understand why.

Yep. My thought exactly. Helps especially when they’re showing up at huge positions of need for me too.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by fcdankmemes

In that situation, when do you determine that a player is ‘too good’ for the league they’re in? Specific ratings you look at, stats, etc?

First is I don't make it harder than it should be by overthinking it. I use the 2-8 scale, 5 is average ability. So when you set the game to evaluate based on AAA the 5 is based on that. Look at AAA and AA players and see who has average, just below, or above average skills. Move onto evaluating based on AA, look at AA and HA players. Rinse and repeat.

When looking at batters I find a 4 can hit while a 3, for me, is pretty much a "no-go". This, too me, translates fairly well to all skills be it batter or pitcher. 3 stuff is probably getting blasted while a P may be able to survive with a 4. As you're thinking about all of this know the scout may be wrong and the stats may be the best indicator. Conversely the guy may be putting up stats way above his scouted skills but, he's just in a "lucky" streak and the scouted skills are what he actually is.

You then need to look at all three of the big skills (con\pow\eye, stuff, movement, control), along with stats, and determine for yourself if you think they can move up. When looking at stats also consider sample size IE how many PA, IP, etc. You then may want to consider pro years and age. Sometimes I push a guy up because it's time to "sink or swim". All the while keeping in mind the player's potential and where you see him topping out in your organization. Some guys are never leaving AA no matter what and are going to end up "aging out" and being released. That's baseball.

Batters I tend to look at WRC+ and OPS + as an "attention getter" and then drill down into the stats, sample size, age, pro years.

Pitchers.. SIERA, FIP-, ERA+ draw my eye. Then like batters I take a closer look at stats, sample size, age, pro years.

Use your imagination, think about "how would I do this IRL?", and you'll soon come up with your own system and criteria that make your MiLB evaluations go smoothly and quickly. Sometimes you'll be right. Other times you'll be wrong.

[BBGiovanni]

Originally Posted by Dave Stieb II

Yes, the elimination of short season A- ball basically took a rung out of the development ladder.
Now you have fairly polished college players mixing with the rawest of high school draft picks at the domestic complex.
Perhaps they've figured out how to make it work IRL but it creates a bit of a problem for us. If you set too young an age limit for the domestic complex team, then a lot of college draftees are going to be left in 'no man's land' between the complex and full season A ball.

Is that what teams are doing IRL? Just dumping everyone in Arizona/Florida and seeing who does what?

It does explain why I've seen what I've seen in the California League this year. It looks an awful lot like what short season games used to look like (at least the NYPL games I've seen). Sending better college prospects to what is now Low A after the draft would make a lot of sense, basically using them as they used to use A-SS leagues.

[fcdankmemes]

Originally Posted by Sweed

First is I don't make it harder than it should be by overthinking it. I use the 2-8 scale, 5 is average ability. So when you set the game to evaluate based on AAA the 5 is based on that. Look at AAA and AA players and see who has average, just below, or above average skills. Move onto evaluating based on AA, look at AA and HA players. Rinse and repeat.

When looking at batters I find a 4 can hit while a 3, for me, is pretty much a "no-go". This, too me, translates fairly well to all skills be it batter or pitcher. 3 stuff is probably getting blasted while a P may be able to survive with a 4. As you're thinking about all of this know the scout may be wrong and the stats may be the best indicator. Conversely the guy may be putting up stats way above his scouted skills but, he's just in a "lucky" streak and the scouted skills are what he actually is.

You then need to look at all three of the big skills (con\pow\eye, stuff, movement, control), along with stats, and determine for yourself if you think they can move up. When looking at stats also consider sample size IE how many PA, IP, etc. You then may want to consider pro years and age. Sometimes I push a guy up because it's time to "sink or swim". All the while keeping in mind the player's potential and where you see him topping out in your organization. Some guys are never leaving AA no matter what and are going to end up "aging out" and being released. That's baseball.

Batters I tend to look at WRC+ and OPS + as an "attention getter" and then drill down into the stats, sample size, age, pro years.

Pitchers.. SIERA, FIP-, ERA+ draw my eye. Then like batters I take a closer look at stats, sample size, age, pro years.

Use your imagination, think about "how would I do this IRL?", and you'll soon come up with your own system and criteria that make your MiLB evaluations go smoothly and quickly. Sometimes you'll be right. Other times you'll be wrong.

Gotcha, gotcha. Thanks for the tips.
Also, while we’re all still here, the vast majority of my player development emails have been mostly negative. I don’t know what I’m doing wrong. I’ve dumped a ton of money into it, have good coaches, am I just getting unlucky? Or do I need to do something differently?

[Dave Stieb II]

Originally Posted by BBGiovanni

Is that what teams are doing IRL? Just dumping everyone in Arizona/Florida and seeing who does what?

It does explain why I've seen what I've seen in the California League this year. It looks an awful lot like what short season games used to look like (at least the NYPL games I've seen). Sending better college prospects to what is now Low A after the draft would make a lot of sense, basically using them as they used to use A-SS leagues.

It seems apparent that teams are promoting throughout the minors - and even to the majors - much more quickly now than they did even two years ago.
There are multiple reasons for this - organizational limits on # of players, elimination of short season A ball, costs, etc. - but teams are separating the perceived wheat from the chaff a lot more quickly.
And guys aren't lingering in a system for several years if their perceived potential doesn't warrant it, hoping that it all comes together at some point.
Just an observation, but I think this affects Low A ball more than any other level. College guys who would have been at short season A ball two years ago (if there wasn't a pandemic) are now being thrown into the Low A pool and the ones who keep their heads above water stay, the others....well, that's unfortunate.

[Dave Stieb II]

Originally Posted by fcdankmemes

Gotcha, gotcha. Thanks for the tips.
Also, while we’re all still here, the vast majority of my player development emails have been mostly negative. I don’t know what I’m doing wrong. I’ve dumped a ton of money into it, have good coaches, am I just getting unlucky? Or do I need to do something differently?

I refer to it as the 'Player Regression' report as opposed to the 'Player Development' Report because it is mostly negative to the point where it can get depressing at times. Always has been and seems to be getting worse.
Considering how many guys play pro ball and how many make it to the show, it's probably realistic I guess, but it's not exactly the ray of sunshine you need to light up your day.
It's impossible to judge if this is what you're experiencing or if something is wrong.
But if some key people in your system are trending toward their projections or a little better, and you get a surprise or two, you're probably just experiencing the norm.