Worst BA ever?!?

AngelinOF · 04-16-2002, 09:44 AM

Arch Reily just finished the 1919 season with Pittsburgh batting a paulty 0.032 (17/529), all singles. He had more RBI (22) and runs (19) then hits. He had a stint from 7/15 to 8/20 were he went 0 for 116. His favorite team by far was the Cubs whom he went 0 for 74 against and his second favorite would have to be the Giants whom he went 1 for 80 against.

Now why this guy played out the entire season is beyond me, unless the computer AI weighs heavily on the avoiding K rating (he was a 10, which was the highest on the team, but every other rating was a 0) the Pirates had a 3B prospect at every level and all had better ratings then Archie. They even had 5 players on the active roster that had some type of rating at 3B. Hehe the funny thing was that if he had gotten enough PA's then he would of won the NL ROY by default since he would of been the only rookie to have qualified. And he does have something to tell the grandkids about his first ML hit came off of Pete Alexander.

[ 04-16-2002, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: AngelinOF ]

Ryan W. · 04-17-2002, 06:14 AM

quote:
Originally posted by AngelinOF:
Arch Reily just finished the 1919 season with Pittsburgh batting a paulty 0.032 (17/529), all singles. He had more RBI (22) and runs (19) then hits. He had a stint from 7/15 to 8/20 were he went 0 for 116. His favorite team by far was the Cubs whom he went 0 for 74 against and his second favorite would have to be the Giants whom he went 1 for 80 against.

Now why this guy played out the entire season is beyond me, unless the computer AI weighs heavily on the avoiding K rating (he was a 10, which was the highest on the team, but every other rating was a 0) the Pirates had a 3B prospect at every level and all had better ratings then Archie. They even had 5 players on the active roster that had some type of rating at 3B. Hehe the funny thing was that if he had gotten enough PA's then he would of won the NL ROY by default since he would of been the only rookie to have qualified. And he does have something to tell the grandkids about his first ML hit came off of Pete Alexander.

I have seen similar things in my replays. Players that have no business being in the majors actually getting 500+ AB. Usually, they are players that had 0-4 AB in real life but never got a hit. Scouts assessment usually says they are a "star". I have also seen these players earn 15+ Million, which I have to watch out for in my sim as star players (Urban Shocker comes to mind) retire as no one signs them because their salaries are capped out.

Marcus, is there any way we can get this fixed? It seems like an import issue. Maybe throw out players with 0 hits in their lifetime altogether?

fluharty · 04-17-2002, 06:58 AM

I have seen this a lot with the AI teams. There is something seriously wrong with how the AI fills out the major league roster. I have been unable to pin down any kind of pattern with this, so I have not mentioned it, but I have seen guys called up from A with a 0 for hits, passing over guys in AAA with a 6 in hits. The guys passed over often have very low HR talent, but I cannot say that this is the reason. I have not played in a while, but when I do, I plan on trying to pin this down.

andy m · 04-17-2002, 11:58 PM

you guys should post this stuff in the main forums because it's probably going to not get noticed in here. it's also quite a big problem by the sounds of it!

Markus Heinsohn · 04-18-2002, 02:28 AM

AngelinOF, what year did you import? What import options did you use? I need some more info, so that I can have a look at this

NYJuggalo45 · 04-18-2002, 02:54 AM

This is just a thought (honestly I probably don't know what the hell I'm talking about but I'll give it a shot)...I know when you start importing it asks you something along the lines of "remaining career left or career up to this part" to base the ratings on....maybe you did career up to this part? And the guy was like 1-3 in his career so the computer gave him ratings of a .300 hitter? I started at 1910 and I'm up to 1932 currently and haven't had this happen to me any year. Granted there have been some bad years, but it was by guys who were at the tail end of their career or just had off seasons, or that the computer had no one ready in AAA to promote.

Markus Heinsohn · 04-18-2002, 03:18 AM

I found the problem... when a batter didn't have any AB in the import year, he wasn't assigned any talent ratings, which might cause problems in future years

It will be fixed in the next patch!

AngelinOF · 04-18-2002, 10:08 AM

Hehe well actually the reason I posted this here was because I thought it was more comical then really a problem.

Here were the settings I used:
Import Year: 1903
Adjust hitters with less than: 100 AB
Adjust pitchers with less than: 25 IP (Starters 100 IP)
Make bad hitters with less than: 75 AB
Make bad pitchers with less than 50 IP
Talent ratings based on: Whole Career

Reilly imported for the 1917 season were he had one offical AB. Since it was an out the game assigned him 0 ratings but since he didn't strikeout he was rated as brillant in this area. This is also a different problem then the scouting report reporting that a terrible player is capable of MVP seasons I have also seen this rare occurance happen with a few players (I always just call this the Derek Bell syndrom since teams will generally sign these players to outlandish contracts.) The scouting report on Archie basically says he can't hit his way out of a wet paper bag, but for some reason the Pirates thought they he was better then the prospect they had in AAA (wonder what the emails a human gm would of gotten for this one

), I made him a DH for the 1918 season and the Pirates still wasted a roster slot on him however he just received 3 more offical at-bats for the rest of his career.

I think this perhaps is a problem that creeped up due to the new Lahman DB, 1917 was the first rookies I had imported with version 4.5. I'm also assuming that the lack of AB's also caused it to ignore the make bad hitters setting.

Bobbuttons · 04-18-2002, 03:51 PM

This really isn't an unbelievably horrible batting average, but the overall numbers are a bit odd.

Mark McGwire, in my 1995 to present Indians replay, batted just .220 in 1997. He did hit a whopping 60 HR, but had only 103 RBI. So, either nobody was getting on base for him, or he wasn't hitting anything with RISP.

Geiiga · 04-19-2002, 09:26 AM

Had a player in my fictional Mid-Continental League hit .189 with 77 home runs. 114 hits total.

blackrussian · 04-20-2002, 06:53 AM

some of you historians may remember real-life 3B john gochnauer who had 2 full seasons with the indians in 1902 and 1903.

1902: 85 for 459 (.185 .247 .237)
1903: 81 for 438 (.185 .265 .240)

amazing not just for the batting avg, but the fact that the indians trotted him out there in '03 with the SAME results. yikes.

and lets not forget Mario Mendoza...

v'

andy m · 04-20-2002, 10:54 AM

quote:
Originally posted by andy m:
you guys should post this stuff in the main forums because it's probably going to not get noticed in here. it's also quite a big problem by the sounds of it!

well i hold my hands up. i was 100% wrong. nice job markus.

Arbiter · 04-20-2002, 01:28 PM

quote:
Originally posted by blackrussian:
and lets not forget Mario Mendoza...
[/QB]

Mario Mendoza can't hold a candle to Bill Bergen.

UKSubs · 04-20-2002, 05:06 PM

Now Arch Reilly is quite the bad player, but I have seen worse. Let me introduce you to 3B John Karst. A lefty hitter and a righty thrower, Karst was a solid defender (Rating of B, Fielding Percentage of 1.000) with no bat whatsoever. His only rating was in Avoiding Ks for most of his career ranging from 8 to 10.

Karst's career started in 1917 as the 9th round selection of the defending World Champion Chicago Cubs, the greatest dynasty in my 100 year recreation. He originally had some value with a 3 in Doubles, but that soon disappeared. Being the only A Level 3B in the Cubs organization, he hit a modest .267/.278/.346 in 154 games. This was to be the high point of his career. Obviously, the New York Yankees saw something in this promising third basemen, as he was one of the throw-ins that the Cubs gave up to reacquire CF Ty Cobb. (The season earlier, Cobb was traded by the Cubs to the Yankees for SS Tex McDonald and some spare parts. This deal was being reversed.)

As a Yankee farmhand in 1918, Karst only saw action in 31 games hitting .175/.205/.225. While a lesser man would have quit, Karst was undeterred and came back to play for the Yankee organization in 1919. The A Ball team of the Yankees showed far better judgment in evaluating Karst's meager skills, as he had 1 hitless At Bat in 3 games.

On August 19, 1919, Karst was called to the Active Roster, while 3B Pete Kilduff was demoted to AAA. Obviously, he must have had some amazing blackmail over the owners of the Yankees to obtain such a promotion over more valuable players, like anyone else in the Yankee system. Kilduff was a useful hitter with a 5 in AVG and 4 in BB and Doubles, but was a subpar fielder with a D Rating. Kilduff could also man 2B and SS with better skills, but nevertheless was sent down for Karst.

Karst went 0 for 6 in 1919 in 3 games played. Amazingly, Karst managed to score a run and for the only time before 1926, struck out. 1920 starts with John Karst on the active roster. The Yankees catch a lucky break through the first four months of the season, as starter Mike Mowry stays healthy. On July 31, Mowry goes down and Karst steps in to fill the breach. Much like the season before, Karst is inept at the plate going 0 for 48 in his absence, though somehow he manages to score 4 runs.

1921 is a similar story to 1920, as Karst spends most of the season on the pine, waiting for poor Mike Mowery, now 37 to step aside so Karst can really show his skills. Well, on September 2, 1921, the Yankees show they have no more patience for a third baseman who can post a decent batting average and ship Mowery to AAA. Karst is handed the starting job. On September 28, 1921, an amazing event happens, John Karst gets his first Major League hit off of Pete Sims. For the season, Karst goes 1 for 94 with 4 runs scored and 6 RBI. For his career to date, he is 1 for 148, which is good for a .007 Batting Average. Undetered by such numbers, the Yankees bring him back for the start of 1922.

On April 9th, the Yankees are rewarded for their investment. The Philadelphia Athletics, certain that John Karst's 1 for 148 start to his career is a fluke trade THREE players for him. C Sam Brenegan (who himself only hit .018 in 721 AB), CF Ed Johnson, who was a mediocre prospect that never played in the Major Leagues and SS Harry Daubert, who like Johnson was a mediocre prospect that never played in the Major Leagues were sent to the Yankees for John Karst.

This begins the nomad phase of Karst's career, as Karst was traded EVERY YEAR between 1922 and 1930. Karst only saw limited action for the Athletics in his first tour of duty, going 0 for 31 with 1 RBI.

On July 15, 1923, the Athletics wisen up and package 3B John Karst with C George Gilham and ship them off to the St. Louis Browns for SS Jesse Baker. Gilham would never play in the Major Leagues. Baker was another 0 player, going 2 for 193 in his 7 year career.

But Karst is really the star of this story. Karst had a year which included more at bats and less hits than Baker's entire career. Mostly playing every day for the St. Louis Browns after the trade, Karst went 3 for 199 with 11 RBI and scoring 2 runs.

Now, it is 1924 and there are two baseball teams in St. Louis, the Cardinals and the Browns. The Browns started the year using Karst as their starter at the hot corner, but the Cardinals realized that Karst was the last piece of their championship puzzle. On April 21, 1924, the Cardinals sent SS Del Wertz to the crosstown Browns for Karst, C George Gilham and CF Bud Heine. Heine, like Gilham, never made it to the Majors. Wertz was 36 at the time of the deal and was another 0 player, having a marginal career.

The real impact of this move was that Don Rader, a quality hitter with a tin glove was pushed aside for the ultimate glove man, John Karst. Karst took full advantage of his opportunity to set some records. Karst went 5 for 432 which equals a batting average of .012, which was better than his career batting average of .011. He also scored 11 runs and drove in 16. Along with the 5 hits, these were all career highs. Amazingly in 432 AB, Karst never struck out.

A recap of 1925 to 1928, which are very similar and not very interesting. Karst was traded every season between the Browns, Cardinals and Athletics, never getting more than 86 at bats in a season and going 4 for 197 during this period.

On May 30, 1929, the Cardinals sent Karst back to the Browns for another 0 player and a worthless prospect. After racking a good number of unproductive at bats, August 28th rolls around. Karst manages to hit a Home Run off of John Bogart of the Philadelphia Athletics. One would assume that two were friends from one of Karst's stints as an Athletic, but to show that the home run was legitimate, he hits 2 more in September for a grand total of 3 on the year and for his career. These were his only extra base hits in his career which spanned 1389 AB. Aside from the home runs, Karst managed a single, which allowed him to go 4 for 210 for the season.

Karst finished out his career in 1931 with the St. Louis Browns having never won a championship or hitting double or a triple or stealing a base or even drawing a walk. Towards the end of his career he did strike out a good deal more, leaving him 126 career strike outs. Finally, Karst ended up with a .013 batting average with 18 hits in 1389 AB. Quite the sad story about the worst hitter I've ever seen.

Arch Reilly did his part to make history. The 1924 Tigers with Reilly as their backup Shortstop won the World Series in 7 games over the New York Giants. Reilly went 0 for 1 in pivotal game 7 and played a little 3B. In 1925, the Tigers felt that they should spot the rest of the American League a positional player and let Reilly play third base the entire season. Reilly went 8 for 459, good for a batting average of .017. That combined with the season ending injury of Superstar SS Charlie Hollocher led the Tigers to fall to the worst record in 1925.

I hope someone found this as interesting to read as I did to write.

blackrussian · 04-21-2002, 05:03 AM

quote:

I hope someone found this as interesting to read as I did to write.

>wow. amazing. thanks for an entertaining read. i was imagining his life after baseball...prolly made chicken scratch as a no talent ballplayer, retires when the country is in the throes of depression and commits suicide by drinking carbolic acid a la chick stahl.

well, i hope at some point we'll see the game's AI handle low talent players better. ie, not giving an .013 hitter a starting job year after year.

nice one, tho'

v'

JimServo · 04-21-2002, 06:37 AM

Fascinating stuff! Luckily, I'm using the modified database so I don't have to deal with such nonsense. It does make for good stories though...

RyanExpress · 04-21-2002, 06:57 AM

Very interesting and funny read.

andy m · 04-21-2002, 07:04 AM

brilliant!

The Mighty Delfont · 04-21-2002, 06:11 PM

I read that start to finish, it was absolutely top-notch. Highly recommended!

04-16-2002, 09:44 AM	#1
AngelinOF All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,353	Worst BA ever?!? Arch Reily just finished the 1919 season with Pittsburgh batting a paulty 0.032 (17/529), all singles. He had more RBI (22) and runs (19) then hits. He had a stint from 7/15 to 8/20 were he went 0 for 116. His favorite team by far was the Cubs whom he went 0 for 74 against and his second favorite would have to be the Giants whom he went 1 for 80 against. Now why this guy played out the entire season is beyond me, unless the computer AI weighs heavily on the avoiding K rating (he was a 10, which was the highest on the team, but every other rating was a 0) the Pirates had a 3B prospect at every level and all had better ratings then Archie. They even had 5 players on the active roster that had some type of rating at 3B. Hehe the funny thing was that if he had gotten enough PA's then he would of won the NL ROY by default since he would of been the only rookie to have qualified. And he does have something to tell the grandkids about his first ML hit came off of Pete Alexander. [ 04-16-2002, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: AngelinOF ]

04-17-2002, 06:14 AM	#2
Ryan W. Jack of all trades Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Somewhere, not sure where. Maybe nearby, maybe far away. Posts: 1,371	quote: Originally posted by AngelinOF: Arch Reily just finished the 1919 season with Pittsburgh batting a paulty 0.032 (17/529), all singles. He had more RBI (22) and runs (19) then hits. He had a stint from 7/15 to 8/20 were he went 0 for 116. His favorite team by far was the Cubs whom he went 0 for 74 against and his second favorite would have to be the Giants whom he went 1 for 80 against. Now why this guy played out the entire season is beyond me, unless the computer AI weighs heavily on the avoiding K rating (he was a 10, which was the highest on the team, but every other rating was a 0) the Pirates had a 3B prospect at every level and all had better ratings then Archie. They even had 5 players on the active roster that had some type of rating at 3B. Hehe the funny thing was that if he had gotten enough PA's then he would of won the NL ROY by default since he would of been the only rookie to have qualified. And he does have something to tell the grandkids about his first ML hit came off of Pete Alexander. I have seen similar things in my replays. Players that have no business being in the majors actually getting 500+ AB. Usually, they are players that had 0-4 AB in real life but never got a hit. Scouts assessment usually says they are a "star". I have also seen these players earn 15+ Million, which I have to watch out for in my sim as star players (Urban Shocker comes to mind) retire as no one signs them because their salaries are capped out. Marcus, is there any way we can get this fixed? It seems like an import issue. Maybe throw out players with 0 hits in their lifetime altogether? __________________

04-17-2002, 11:58 PM	#4
andy m Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: UK Posts: 183	you guys should post this stuff in the main forums because it's probably going to not get noticed in here. it's also quite a big problem by the sounds of it! __________________

04-18-2002, 02:28 AM	#5
Markus Heinsohn Developer OOTP Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 24,803	AngelinOF, what year did you import? What import options did you use? I need some more info, so that I can have a look at this __________________ Buy Out of the Park Baseball 25 now! Download OOTP Go 25 for iOS Download OOTP Go 25 for Android

04-18-2002, 02:54 AM	#6
NYJuggalo45 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 2,045	This is just a thought (honestly I probably don't know what the hell I'm talking about but I'll give it a shot)...I know when you start importing it asks you something along the lines of "remaining career left or career up to this part" to base the ratings on....maybe you did career up to this part? And the guy was like 1-3 in his career so the computer gave him ratings of a .300 hitter? I started at 1910 and I'm up to 1932 currently and haven't had this happen to me any year. Granted there have been some bad years, but it was by guys who were at the tail end of their career or just had off seasons, or that the computer had no one ready in AAA to promote. __________________ This space for rent

04-17-2002, 06:58 AM	#3
fluharty All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Morgantown, WV Posts: 1,023	I have seen this a lot with the AI teams. There is something seriously wrong with how the AI fills out the major league roster. I have been unable to pin down any kind of pattern with this, so I have not mentioned it, but I have seen guys called up from A with a 0 for hits, passing over guys in AAA with a 6 in hits. The guys passed over often have very low HR talent, but I cannot say that this is the reason. I have not played in a while, but when I do, I plan on trying to pin this down.

04-18-2002, 03:18 AM	#7
Markus Heinsohn Developer OOTP Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 24,803	I found the problem... when a batter didn't have any AB in the import year, he wasn't assigned any talent ratings, which might cause problems in future years It will be fixed in the next patch! __________________ Buy Out of the Park Baseball 25 now! Download OOTP Go 25 for iOS Download OOTP Go 25 for Android

04-18-2002, 10:08 AM	#8
AngelinOF All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,353	Hehe well actually the reason I posted this here was because I thought it was more comical then really a problem. Here were the settings I used: Import Year: 1903 Adjust hitters with less than: 100 AB Adjust pitchers with less than: 25 IP (Starters 100 IP) Make bad hitters with less than: 75 AB Make bad pitchers with less than 50 IP Talent ratings based on: Whole Career Reilly imported for the 1917 season were he had one offical AB. Since it was an out the game assigned him 0 ratings but since he didn't strikeout he was rated as brillant in this area. This is also a different problem then the scouting report reporting that a terrible player is capable of MVP seasons I have also seen this rare occurance happen with a few players (I always just call this the Derek Bell syndrom since teams will generally sign these players to outlandish contracts.) The scouting report on Archie basically says he can't hit his way out of a wet paper bag, but for some reason the Pirates thought they he was better then the prospect they had in AAA (wonder what the emails a human gm would of gotten for this one ), I made him a DH for the 1918 season and the Pirates still wasted a roster slot on him however he just received 3 more offical at-bats for the rest of his career. I think this perhaps is a problem that creeped up due to the new Lahman DB, 1917 was the first rookies I had imported with version 4.5. I'm also assuming that the lack of AB's also caused it to ignore the make bad hitters setting.

04-18-2002, 03:51 PM	#9
Bobbuttons Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Picturesque Mentor-on-the-Lake, Ohio Posts: 3,708	This really isn't an unbelievably horrible batting average, but the overall numbers are a bit odd. Mark McGwire, in my 1995 to present Indians replay, batted just .220 in 1997. He did hit a whopping 60 HR, but had only 103 RBI. So, either nobody was getting on base for him, or he wasn't hitting anything with RISP. __________________ Frankenstein never scared me. Marsupials do....cause they're fast! Gibson swings, and a fly ball to deep right field! This is gonna be a home run! Unbelievable! A home run for Gibson! And the Dodgers have won the game, 5 to 4; I don't believe what I just saw! I don't believe what I just saw!

04-19-2002, 09:26 AM	#10
Geiiga Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: USA Posts: 195	Had a player in my fictional Mid-Continental League hit .189 with 77 home runs. 114 hits total. __________________

04-20-2002, 06:53 AM	#11
blackrussian All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 954	some of you historians may remember real-life 3B john gochnauer who had 2 full seasons with the indians in 1902 and 1903. 1902: 85 for 459 (.185 .247 .237) 1903: 81 for 438 (.185 .265 .240) amazing not just for the batting avg, but the fact that the indians trotted him out there in '03 with the SAME results. yikes. and lets not forget Mario Mendoza... v' __________________ v'

04-20-2002, 10:54 AM	#12
andy m Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: UK Posts: 183	quote: Originally posted by andy m: you guys should post this stuff in the main forums because it's probably going to not get noticed in here. it's also quite a big problem by the sounds of it! well i hold my hands up. i was 100% wrong. nice job markus. __________________

04-20-2002, 01:28 PM	#13
Arbiter Minors (Double A) Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: College Station TX Posts: 127	quote: Originally posted by blackrussian: and lets not forget Mario Mendoza... [/QB] Mario Mendoza can't hold a candle to Bill Bergen.

04-20-2002, 05:06 PM	#14
UKSubs Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 272	Now Arch Reilly is quite the bad player, but I have seen worse. Let me introduce you to 3B John Karst. A lefty hitter and a righty thrower, Karst was a solid defender (Rating of B, Fielding Percentage of 1.000) with no bat whatsoever. His only rating was in Avoiding Ks for most of his career ranging from 8 to 10. Karst's career started in 1917 as the 9th round selection of the defending World Champion Chicago Cubs, the greatest dynasty in my 100 year recreation. He originally had some value with a 3 in Doubles, but that soon disappeared. Being the only A Level 3B in the Cubs organization, he hit a modest .267/.278/.346 in 154 games. This was to be the high point of his career. Obviously, the New York Yankees saw something in this promising third basemen, as he was one of the throw-ins that the Cubs gave up to reacquire CF Ty Cobb. (The season earlier, Cobb was traded by the Cubs to the Yankees for SS Tex McDonald and some spare parts. This deal was being reversed.) As a Yankee farmhand in 1918, Karst only saw action in 31 games hitting .175/.205/.225. While a lesser man would have quit, Karst was undeterred and came back to play for the Yankee organization in 1919. The A Ball team of the Yankees showed far better judgment in evaluating Karst's meager skills, as he had 1 hitless At Bat in 3 games. On August 19, 1919, Karst was called to the Active Roster, while 3B Pete Kilduff was demoted to AAA. Obviously, he must have had some amazing blackmail over the owners of the Yankees to obtain such a promotion over more valuable players, like anyone else in the Yankee system. Kilduff was a useful hitter with a 5 in AVG and 4 in BB and Doubles, but was a subpar fielder with a D Rating. Kilduff could also man 2B and SS with better skills, but nevertheless was sent down for Karst. Karst went 0 for 6 in 1919 in 3 games played. Amazingly, Karst managed to score a run and for the only time before 1926, struck out. 1920 starts with John Karst on the active roster. The Yankees catch a lucky break through the first four months of the season, as starter Mike Mowry stays healthy. On July 31, Mowry goes down and Karst steps in to fill the breach. Much like the season before, Karst is inept at the plate going 0 for 48 in his absence, though somehow he manages to score 4 runs. 1921 is a similar story to 1920, as Karst spends most of the season on the pine, waiting for poor Mike Mowery, now 37 to step aside so Karst can really show his skills. Well, on September 2, 1921, the Yankees show they have no more patience for a third baseman who can post a decent batting average and ship Mowery to AAA. Karst is handed the starting job. On September 28, 1921, an amazing event happens, John Karst gets his first Major League hit off of Pete Sims. For the season, Karst goes 1 for 94 with 4 runs scored and 6 RBI. For his career to date, he is 1 for 148, which is good for a .007 Batting Average. Undetered by such numbers, the Yankees bring him back for the start of 1922. On April 9th, the Yankees are rewarded for their investment. The Philadelphia Athletics, certain that John Karst's 1 for 148 start to his career is a fluke trade THREE players for him. C Sam Brenegan (who himself only hit .018 in 721 AB), CF Ed Johnson, who was a mediocre prospect that never played in the Major Leagues and SS Harry Daubert, who like Johnson was a mediocre prospect that never played in the Major Leagues were sent to the Yankees for John Karst. This begins the nomad phase of Karst's career, as Karst was traded EVERY YEAR between 1922 and 1930. Karst only saw limited action for the Athletics in his first tour of duty, going 0 for 31 with 1 RBI. On July 15, 1923, the Athletics wisen up and package 3B John Karst with C George Gilham and ship them off to the St. Louis Browns for SS Jesse Baker. Gilham would never play in the Major Leagues. Baker was another 0 player, going 2 for 193 in his 7 year career. But Karst is really the star of this story. Karst had a year which included more at bats and less hits than Baker's entire career. Mostly playing every day for the St. Louis Browns after the trade, Karst went 3 for 199 with 11 RBI and scoring 2 runs. Now, it is 1924 and there are two baseball teams in St. Louis, the Cardinals and the Browns. The Browns started the year using Karst as their starter at the hot corner, but the Cardinals realized that Karst was the last piece of their championship puzzle. On April 21, 1924, the Cardinals sent SS Del Wertz to the crosstown Browns for Karst, C George Gilham and CF Bud Heine. Heine, like Gilham, never made it to the Majors. Wertz was 36 at the time of the deal and was another 0 player, having a marginal career. The real impact of this move was that Don Rader, a quality hitter with a tin glove was pushed aside for the ultimate glove man, John Karst. Karst took full advantage of his opportunity to set some records. Karst went 5 for 432 which equals a batting average of .012, which was better than his career batting average of .011. He also scored 11 runs and drove in 16. Along with the 5 hits, these were all career highs. Amazingly in 432 AB, Karst never struck out. A recap of 1925 to 1928, which are very similar and not very interesting. Karst was traded every season between the Browns, Cardinals and Athletics, never getting more than 86 at bats in a season and going 4 for 197 during this period. On May 30, 1929, the Cardinals sent Karst back to the Browns for another 0 player and a worthless prospect. After racking a good number of unproductive at bats, August 28th rolls around. Karst manages to hit a Home Run off of John Bogart of the Philadelphia Athletics. One would assume that two were friends from one of Karst's stints as an Athletic, but to show that the home run was legitimate, he hits 2 more in September for a grand total of 3 on the year and for his career. These were his only extra base hits in his career which spanned 1389 AB. Aside from the home runs, Karst managed a single, which allowed him to go 4 for 210 for the season. Karst finished out his career in 1931 with the St. Louis Browns having never won a championship or hitting double or a triple or stealing a base or even drawing a walk. Towards the end of his career he did strike out a good deal more, leaving him 126 career strike outs. Finally, Karst ended up with a .013 batting average with 18 hits in 1389 AB. Quite the sad story about the worst hitter I've ever seen. Arch Reilly did his part to make history. The 1924 Tigers with Reilly as their backup Shortstop won the World Series in 7 games over the New York Giants. Reilly went 0 for 1 in pivotal game 7 and played a little 3B. In 1925, the Tigers felt that they should spot the rest of the American League a positional player and let Reilly play third base the entire season. Reilly went 8 for 459, good for a batting average of .017. That combined with the season ending injury of Superstar SS Charlie Hollocher led the Tigers to fall to the worst record in 1925. I hope someone found this as interesting to read as I did to write. __________________ Counter Culture Baseball Commissioner/Houston Astros RANZBA Adelaide Crows

04-21-2002, 05:03 AM	#15
blackrussian All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 954	quote: I hope someone found this as interesting to read as I did to write. >wow. amazing. thanks for an entertaining read. i was imagining his life after baseball...prolly made chicken scratch as a no talent ballplayer, retires when the country is in the throes of depression and commits suicide by drinking carbolic acid a la chick stahl. well, i hope at some point we'll see the game's AI handle low talent players better. ie, not giving an .013 hitter a starting job year after year. nice one, tho' v' __________________ v'

04-21-2002, 06:37 AM	#16
JimServo Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Near Philadelphia, PA Posts: 418	Fascinating stuff! Luckily, I'm using the modified database so I don't have to deal with such nonsense. It does make for good stories though... __________________ "When I was a small boy in Kansas, a friend of mine and I went fishing and as we sat there in the warmth of the summer afternoon on a river bank, we talked about what we wanted to do when we grew up. I told him that I wanted to be a real major league baseball player, a genuine professional like Honus Wagner. My friend said that he'd like to be President of the United States. Neither of us got our wish." -Dwight D. Eisenhower

04-21-2002, 06:57 AM	#17
RyanExpress Bat Boy Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 15	Very interesting and funny read. __________________ jkl

04-21-2002, 07:04 AM	#18
andy m Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: UK Posts: 183	brilliant! __________________

04-21-2002, 06:11 PM	#19
The Mighty Delfont Bat Boy Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 11	I read that start to finish, it was absolutely top-notch. Highly recommended! __________________ Long live the 'Spos!