YOU make the call!

Qrashman · 05-02-2003, 01:35 PM

I know that this could be left up to the official scorer in some cases, but how many earned runs should the pitcher get for this inning?
-------------------

Pitching: Karim Veit
1B Carlos Pena:
DOUBLES to deep center field.

CF Preston Wilson:
Flies out to center field.

P A.J. Burnett:
Strikes out, reaches first base on passed ball.
C. Pena to third.

2B Fred Ponds:
Grounds into fielders choice to the first baseman, Burnett out at 2nd base.
C. Pena scores.

C Bobby Estalella:
DOUBLES down the left field line.
F. Ponds scores.

3B Joe Crede:
SINGLES to left
B. Estalella to third.
B. Estalella scores.

RF Jeremy Giambi:
SINGLES to the gap in right-center.
J. Crede to second.
Fielding error by the rightfielder!
J. Crede to third.
J. Giambi to second.

LF Dmitri Young:
Strikes out swinging.

Inning over... 3 runs, 4 hits, one error.
Score: New York (N) 3, Montreal 3

I would argue that Fred Ponds's groundout to the 1st baseman would have been the 3rd out, therefore none of the runs would have scored.

OOTP gave the pitcher 3 earned runs.

statfreak · 05-02-2003, 01:38 PM

I would have said none of the runs were earned as well.

sporr · 05-02-2003, 01:45 PM

No earned runs there.

Henry · 05-02-2003, 01:59 PM

Yep... I'm sure it must be the passed ball that confused the code, the K counts as the second out for earned run purposes.

matskralc · 05-02-2003, 02:40 PM

Passed balls are not scored as errors. All the runs were earned.

matskralc · 05-02-2003, 02:44 PM

Hmm...nevermind. I just scanned the rules again. It makes no mention of <i>batters</i> reaching on passed balls. It says <i>runners</i> advancing with the aid of passed balls are not earned. I'd assume the same for the batter.

TwinMonster · 05-02-2003, 03:31 PM

I've had the same question with similar situations.

Henry · 05-02-2003, 03:35 PM

From the rule book....

EARNED RUNS
10.18
An earned run is a run for which the pitcher is held accountable. In determining earned runs, the inning should be reconstructed without the errors (which include catcher's interference) and passed balls, and the benefit of the doubt should always be given to the pitcher in determining which bases would have
been reached by errorless play.

autarkis33 · 05-02-2003, 06:20 PM

2 runs should have been earned. The passed ball runner would be an unearned run, but regardless of how many outs there should be, all other runs are earned.

Example: Two outs in an inning. Batter grounds to an infielder that boots it. Runner reaches and eventually scores. If all other batters reach because of pitcher (hit, HBP, BB) and score after what would have been the 3rd out, they are still scored as earned against the pitcher. However, they are not scored as earned against the team. Only runners reaching or scoring directly because of an error are considered unearned for the pitcher.

Henry · 05-02-2003, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by autarkis33
2 runs should have been earned.

Don't think so... the rule states "the inning should be reconstructed without the errors (which include catcher's interference) and passed balls" ....

Pitching: Karim Veit
1B Carlos Pena:
DOUBLES to deep center field.
>>> RUNNER ON 2nd, 0 OUTS

CF Preston Wilson:
Flies out to center field.
>>> RUNNER ON 2nd, 1 OUTS

P A.J. Burnett:
Strikes out, reaches first base on passed ball.
C. Pena to third.
>>> RUNNER on 3rd, 2 OUTS

2B Fred Ponds:
Grounds into fielders choice to the first baseman, Burnett out at 2nd base. C. Pena scores.
>>> RUNNER CAN'T SCORE ON 3rd OUT

fantom1979 · 05-02-2003, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by autarkis33
2 runs should have been earned. The passed ball runner would be an unearned run, but regardless of how many outs there should be, all other runs are earned.

Example: Two outs in an inning. Batter grounds to an infielder that boots it. Runner reaches and eventually scores. If all other batters reach because of pitcher (hit, HBP, BB) and score after what would have been the 3rd out, they are still scored as earned against the pitcher. However, they are not scored as earned against the team. Only runners reaching or scoring directly because of an error are considered unearned for the pitcher.

Like Henry said, the inning should have been over and due to no fault of the pitcher the inning continued. All runs should be unearned.

Qrashman · 05-02-2003, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Example: Two outs in an inning. Batter grounds to an infielder that boots it. Runner reaches and eventually scores. If all other batters reach because of pitcher (hit, HBP, BB) and score after what would have been the 3rd out, they are still scored as earned against the pitcher. However, they are not scored as earned against the team. Only runners reaching or scoring directly because of an error are considered unearned for the pitcher.

I dont believe this is correct. If there are two outs in the inning and someone makes an error, all runs afterwards would be unearned.

Springtime_for_Hunter · 05-03-2003, 01:26 AM

Whether it's a passed ball or not really doesn't matter -- unless it's been fixed in OOTP5, the bug is in the fielder's choice. I could probably dig up a few OOTP4 games for examples, but basically if a runner who reached on an error is erased on a fielder's choice, the game "forgets" that the error happened and any future runs in the inning are earned (barring other errors). Basically it is as if the game were assuming the FC would be a hit if the runner wasn't on.

Bravo 1/5 USHA · 05-03-2003, 02:02 AM

None of the runs should be earned. However, I have never seen that happen personally. OOTP5 has scored it correctly, as far as I have noticed, each time....and I play all my games out. Then again, I'm still a newbie in only my first season...109 games under me belt.

Jabs · 05-04-2003, 07:45 PM

This should have been zero earned runs for the inning. Burnett's strikeout/reaching first base on passed ball was incorrectly scored. It should have been scored as a strikeout with an E-2 attached to it....Burnett reached on the catcher's error, thus causing all runs to be unearned when the next out was made.

autarkis33 · 05-04-2003, 11:52 PM

Okay, I went and looked it up and I am completely in the wrong. There is somewhere a difference between team and pitcher earned runs and I was under the impression that this was it. So much for listening to your local friendly color commentator.

Henry is correct, 0 earned in this case if scored correctly.

KySteveH · 05-05-2003, 12:14 AM

Actually, there's no E-2. Passed balls are not errors. They are two separate stats, both of which can cause run to be unearned.

Jabs · 05-05-2003, 02:13 AM

I know that passed balls and E-2's are two different stats....but in the case of a batter reaching first on a dropped third strike, it goes in the scorebook as a strikeout/E-2.

Henry · 05-05-2003, 01:04 PM

A passed ball is not an error and should not be scored as such...

PASSED BALL (PB)

A passed ball is a pitch the catcher fails to stop or control when he should have been able to do so with ordinary effort and on which a runner is able to advance. When a passed ball occurs on the third strike, permitting the batter to reach first base, score the play as a strikeout and a passed ball. A passed ball is not counted as an error.

Rule 10.14 sections i) When the third strike is a wild pitch, permitting the batter to reach first base, score a strikeout and a wild pitch. and (ii) When the third strike is a passed ball, permitting the batter to reach first base, score a strikeout and a passed ball.

Jabs · 05-05-2003, 02:35 PM

Well thanks Henry....I guess I have been taught wrong all my life. I've always scored that as a K/E-2, but now I know better.

05-02-2003, 01:35 PM	#1
Qrashman All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NY Posts: 651	YOU make the call! I know that this could be left up to the official scorer in some cases, but how many earned runs should the pitcher get for this inning? ------------------- Pitching: Karim Veit 1B Carlos Pena: DOUBLES to deep center field. CF Preston Wilson: Flies out to center field. P A.J. Burnett: Strikes out, reaches first base on passed ball. C. Pena to third. 2B Fred Ponds: Grounds into fielders choice to the first baseman, Burnett out at 2nd base. C. Pena scores. C Bobby Estalella: DOUBLES down the left field line. F. Ponds scores. 3B Joe Crede: SINGLES to left B. Estalella to third. B. Estalella scores. RF Jeremy Giambi: SINGLES to the gap in right-center. J. Crede to second. Fielding error by the rightfielder! J. Crede to third. J. Giambi to second. LF Dmitri Young: Strikes out swinging. Inning over... 3 runs, 4 hits, one error. Score: New York (N) 3, Montreal 3 I would argue that Fred Ponds's groundout to the 1st baseman would have been the 3rd out, therefore none of the runs would have scored. OOTP gave the pitcher 3 earned runs. __________________ ------------------- Montreal Expos / Calgary Storm, HBL HBL Baseball - Founded March 2001. HBL Waiting List

05-02-2003, 01:38 PM	#2
statfreak Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 2,434	I would have said none of the runs were earned as well. __________________ Roll out the barrel!

05-02-2003, 02:40 PM	#5
matskralc Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,076	Passed balls are not scored as errors. All the runs were earned. __________________ Well, they have a saying here in Texas ... but they probably don't have it in California, so never mind. OTBL - Pennsylvania Fightin' Amish ABC - Pittsburgh Puma OCHO - Pittsburgh Pirates EBU - Commissioner

05-02-2003, 02:44 PM	#6
matskralc Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,076	Hmm...nevermind. I just scanned the rules again. It makes no mention of <i>batters</i> reaching on passed balls. It says <i>runners</i> advancing with the aid of passed balls are not earned. I'd assume the same for the batter. __________________ Well, they have a saying here in Texas ... but they probably don't have it in California, so never mind. OTBL - Pennsylvania Fightin' Amish ABC - Pittsburgh Puma OCHO - Pittsburgh Pirates EBU - Commissioner

05-02-2003, 06:20 PM	#9
autarkis33 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Peoria, IL Posts: 247	2 runs should have been earned. The passed ball runner would be an unearned run, but regardless of how many outs there should be, all other runs are earned. Example: Two outs in an inning. Batter grounds to an infielder that boots it. Runner reaches and eventually scores. If all other batters reach because of pitcher (hit, HBP, BB) and score after what would have been the 3rd out, they are still scored as earned against the pitcher. However, they are not scored as earned against the team. Only runners reaching or scoring directly because of an error are considered unearned for the pitcher. __________________ "I'm not crazy, I'm just a little unwell" Commissioner of the <A HREF="http://www.bpla-ootp.com">BPLA</A> GM of the Iowa Crop Circles in <A HREF="http://www.dpbl.net/potd">POTD</A> Manager of the Lennongrad Coleopteras in <A HREF="http://beta.simleagues.com">Beta Baseball</A> Only HOF Leftfielder in LBL - 2nd career AVG, 3B's and SB's - 3rd in Hits and HR's

05-02-2003, 01:45 PM	#3
sporr Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Muscatine, IA Posts: 8,277	No earned runs there.

05-02-2003, 01:59 PM	#4
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	Yep... I'm sure it must be the passed ball that confused the code, the K counts as the second out for earned run purposes.

05-02-2003, 03:31 PM	#7
TwinMonster Major Leagues Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Minnepolis Posts: 325	I've had the same question with similar situations.

05-02-2003, 03:35 PM	#8
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	From the rule book.... EARNED RUNS 10.18 An earned run is a run for which the pitcher is held accountable. In determining earned runs, the inning should be reconstructed without the errors (which include catcher's interference) and passed balls, and the benefit of the doubt should always be given to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by errorless play.

05-03-2003, 01:26 AM	#13
Springtime_for_Hunter All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 846	Whether it's a passed ball or not really doesn't matter -- unless it's been fixed in OOTP5, the bug is in the fielder's choice. I could probably dig up a few OOTP4 games for examples, but basically if a runner who reached on an error is erased on a fielder's choice, the game "forgets" that the error happened and any future runs in the inning are earned (barring other errors). Basically it is as if the game were assuming the FC would be a hit if the runner wasn't on. __________________ "Only the utterly impossible, the inexpressibly fantastic, can ever be plausible again" Red Smith, New York Herald-Tribune, October 4, 1951

05-03-2003, 02:02 AM	#14
Bravo 1/5 USHA Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: NYC, NY Posts: 108	None of the runs should be earned. However, I have never seen that happen personally. OOTP5 has scored it correctly, as far as I have noticed, each time....and I play all my games out. Then again, I'm still a newbie in only my first season...109 games under me belt. __________________ How 'bout dem Yanks!

05-04-2003, 07:45 PM	#15
Jabs Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Pella, IA Posts: 114	This should have been zero earned runs for the inning. Burnett's strikeout/reaching first base on passed ball was incorrectly scored. It should have been scored as a strikeout with an E-2 attached to it....Burnett reached on the catcher's error, thus causing all runs to be unearned when the next out was made.

05-04-2003, 11:52 PM	#16
autarkis33 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Peoria, IL Posts: 247	Okay, I went and looked it up and I am completely in the wrong. There is somewhere a difference between team and pitcher earned runs and I was under the impression that this was it. So much for listening to your local friendly color commentator. Henry is correct, 0 earned in this case if scored correctly. __________________ "I'm not crazy, I'm just a little unwell" Commissioner of the <A HREF="http://www.bpla-ootp.com">BPLA</A> GM of the Iowa Crop Circles in <A HREF="http://www.dpbl.net/potd">POTD</A> Manager of the Lennongrad Coleopteras in <A HREF="http://beta.simleagues.com">Beta Baseball</A> Only HOF Leftfielder in LBL - 2nd career AVG, 3B's and SB's - 3rd in Hits and HR's

05-05-2003, 12:14 AM	#17
KySteveH Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 266	Actually, there's no E-2. Passed balls are not errors. They are two separate stats, both of which can cause run to be unearned.

05-05-2003, 02:13 AM	#18
Jabs Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Pella, IA Posts: 114	I know that passed balls and E-2's are two different stats....but in the case of a batter reaching first on a dropped third strike, it goes in the scorebook as a strikeout/E-2.

05-05-2003, 01:04 PM	#19
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	A passed ball is not an error and should not be scored as such... PASSED BALL (PB) A passed ball is a pitch the catcher fails to stop or control when he should have been able to do so with ordinary effort and on which a runner is able to advance. When a passed ball occurs on the third strike, permitting the batter to reach first base, score the play as a strikeout and a passed ball. A passed ball is not counted as an error. Rule 10.14 sections i) When the third strike is a wild pitch, permitting the batter to reach first base, score a strikeout and a wild pitch. and (ii) When the third strike is a passed ball, permitting the batter to reach first base, score a strikeout and a passed ball. Last edited by Henry; 05-05-2003 at 01:07 PM.

05-05-2003, 02:35 PM	#20
Jabs Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Pella, IA Posts: 114	Well thanks Henry....I guess I have been taught wrong all my life. I've always scored that as a K/E-2, but now I know better.