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#1 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 13,000
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My NeL Player Profile Project
UPDATE 03/06/22: FOR ANYONE LOOKING AT THIS THREAD FOR THE FIRST TIME, PLEASE READ THIS POST BEFORE WASTING ANY TIME ON THEM.
I feel I have been a bit of a sponge in the time since I became an OOTP alum, talking all of the great mod work across the spectrum while offering little in return. I try and chip in with help whenever the subject is something I am familiar with, but the fact of the matter is that I am neither tech-savvy enough nor possessed with the skills required to reciprocate in any meaningful manner on a regular basis. Consider this my attempt to redress this imbalance. As any of you who follow one or more of my numerous saves would likely be aware, I have been working away at a project to enable the importation of more accurately representative versions of Negro League players. This thread will share the fruits of my labour. A few key points before I begin. THESE ARE NOT PERFECT As much as I desperately hope that OOTP addresses the problem of NeL player imports at the ground floor, I'm not sure there even is a "perfect" fix available. The undeniable slippage between NeL and MLB stats means a true like-for-like correlation between the two is nigh on impossible. The gaps in both those raw stats and the supporting anecdotal data - even with the great strides having been and still being made in this regard - makes the proper "rounding out" of players equally, if not more, difficult. So, while I am confident my work takes us in the right direction by some margin, these profiles are merely educated guesses containing as much subjectivity as objectivity in place of hard, cold facts. THE PROCESS IS TRICKY Even for anyone with a decent working knowledge of the OOTP player editor, the process required to import NeL players using my profiles is not for the faint-hearted. I have tried to make it as straightforward as possible and explain it in the plainest terms, but there are elements that are just downright inscrutable. This is especially so with pitchers. So if you aren't willing to do the hard yards, I suggest you steer clear of any involvement with this and merely use the game-generated versions that you may even edit in a minor way to suit your needs. THESE PROFILES DO NOT WORK IN A RECALC ENVIRONMENT Recalc involves crosschecking and altering ratings against a player's historical stats with a frequency set by the player. As soon as these players are subject to recalc, the AI takes over and reverts them to being in line with their historicals, wiping the edited versions and ignoring the data entered manually upon import. So these will only hold their "shape" in games where only dev is on. I would also recommend you keep TCR way down when using these players. As I have posited elsewhere, I believe players import with a preordained "career path", and higher TCRs seem to magnify the diversion toward this path rather than the ones created using my profiles. So I recommend TCR at an absolute maximum of 25, but preferably at 10 or lower. RESULTS WILL DIFFER Different games mean different settings mean different universes mean different ratings environments. So, while the resultant player profiles should look similar they will differ from mine according to the settings you are using. The screenshots I'll be providing are from the full test environment for my Eclipse League. There are 6000 players in this and I suspect that the ratings of these good NeL players will appear higher than they will come out in most other settings. OK, enough with the caveats. Let's get on with the show.
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HISTORICAL DO-OVERS A'S RED SOX DODGERS CUSTOM SAVES ECLIPSE LEAGUE MOON SHOT LEAGUE EVERYMAN LEAGUE GULF LEAGUE USBA Last edited by luckymann; 03-05-2022 at 09:58 PM. |
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#2 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 13,000
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My Methodology
I have been working on this project for about a year. Over that time I have changed my way of doing things and honed the process many times. But now I believe I have it where I want it to be. There may be some further nuance changes along the way, but hopefully that's it.
At this point I just want to thank LansdowneSt and Makonnen, whose help and input along the way has been invaluable. I also want to thank Eric Chalek (formerly of The Hall of Miller and Eric, but now on his own website which can be found HERE) for all of his astounding work with Major League Equivalencies (MLEs). These, along with the nonpareil Seamheads Website, are my main sources for statistical data. As it stands, my process for determining stats for players, where available, is a straight up average of those provided from these two sources. At present, Eric's MLEs cover about 300 players with plans to keep doing more. My goal is to eventually have 500 profiles. I currently sit at about one-third of this. My goal here, aside from accuracy, is to give the player some sort of career path. These do not correlate in any way with the player’s historical career path, they are simply designed for game play. That said, they use the player’s historical stats as a basis and so are broadly in line. They just don’t mirror the IRL seasonal variance. You might prefer flatter or steeper paths, or none at all. Feel free to change at will. The instructions for doing so in the spreadsheet are explained in the Manual provided in the next post. If you have any questions at all please feel free to raise them here or PM me. I'm more than happy to walk you through the process / help however I can. Like I said it can get tricky. I have sourced the anecdotal / biographical info from wherever I can. First port of call is James A. Riley's Biographical Encyclopaedia of the Negro Baseball Leagues, but I just hunt it down from whatever repositories are available. Even then, a lot of guesswork is required. Educated guesswork, perhaps, but guesswork nonetheless. Still, I stand by these profiles in the context of use in OOTP gameplay. If you see any egregious errors or anomalies, don't be afraid to question them. I'm a big boy. Oh, and you obviously need to be in Commissioner Mode to access the editor. OK, next step.
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HISTORICAL DO-OVERS A'S RED SOX DODGERS CUSTOM SAVES ECLIPSE LEAGUE MOON SHOT LEAGUE EVERYMAN LEAGUE GULF LEAGUE USBA Last edited by luckymann; 02-14-2022 at 11:33 PM. |
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#3 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 13,000
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The process
I will simply copy the contents of the manual into this post, but have attached the PDF if you want a copy to print off / reference while you are entering player data.
This a step-by-step “how-to” guide for importing NeL players using the profiles I have created. It closely follows the way the profiles came to be, so the more rigorously you follow these steps, the more accurately your version of these players will resemble mine. I also recommend you enter them in the order presented below. Have a play around first to familiarise yourself with the editor and its workings. Do some test runs. PLEASE NOTE – THESE DO NOT WORK PROPERLY IN ANY SORT OF RECALC ENVIRONMENT, ONLY WITH RECALC OFF AND DEV ON. I RECOMMEND TCR BE TURNED RIGHT DOWN (25 MAX, 10 PREFERABLY) AS WELL BUT THAT’S UP TO YOU. ALL I’LL SAY IS THE HIGHER THE TCR THE LOWER THE ACCURACY. If you do want to change any of the stats or ratings, do so on the IMPORT DATA tabs, and these changes will be reflected on the BIO & RATINGS TAB. Only change the FINAL lines, the others are there as guides for my calculations and will not do anything. Leave the Hitting and Pitching Ratings and Stats on the front tab alone, they are just the results from the other tabs. Bio data and non-hitting / -pitching ratings can be changed at will on the BIO & RATINGS tab without it messing things up. I have included the correct ID and import year I used on the front tab for your convenience. ALL PLAYERS 1. BIOGRAPHICAL INFO
2. DEFENSIVE RATINGS
3. OTHER OFFENSIVE RATINGS
4. HITTING RATINGS
PITCHERS OK, here’s where things get pretty tricky. You need to follow these steps TO THE LETTER. Even then things often jump about. So take your time and be careful. All are scaled to 250 IP.
That’s it! Crosscheck with the screenshot I’ve included, keeping in mind that ratings are relative to the environment they are set in.
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HISTORICAL DO-OVERS A'S RED SOX DODGERS CUSTOM SAVES ECLIPSE LEAGUE MOON SHOT LEAGUE EVERYMAN LEAGUE GULF LEAGUE USBA Last edited by luckymann; 02-15-2022 at 07:42 AM. |
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#5 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 13,000
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Gibson, Josh
Let's start with one of the all-time greats.
I'll add some background info for each player with regard to points of interest about certain decisions I made. While he is mainly known for his work behind the plate, Josh also spent time at various other positions over the course of his career, and I gave him ratings at each. He was just 19 in 1930, the year of his import, so I set his CUR ratings at roughly 60%, with his POT ratings topping out at about 112%.
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HISTORICAL DO-OVERS A'S RED SOX DODGERS CUSTOM SAVES ECLIPSE LEAGUE MOON SHOT LEAGUE EVERYMAN LEAGUE GULF LEAGUE USBA Last edited by luckymann; 02-14-2022 at 11:25 PM. |
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#6 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 13,000
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I'll just be drip-feeding these as time permits and in no particular order other than, of course, players with completed profiles.
So if anyone has a specific player they are after, feel free to hit me up.
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HISTORICAL DO-OVERS A'S RED SOX DODGERS CUSTOM SAVES ECLIPSE LEAGUE MOON SHOT LEAGUE EVERYMAN LEAGUE GULF LEAGUE USBA |
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#7 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 13,000
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Paige, Satchel
Undoubtedly the best-known of all NeL players.
It almost goes without saying that Satchel's career path was utterly unique with his late association with Bill Veeck and entry into the MLB with the Browns at an advanced age. This is impossible to recreate, so I have had to ignore it. What I have done by way of a form of compensation is to start his CURR statistical data high and top his POT out way higher than most other players - at roughly 125%. Hopefully this reflects his status as a "late bloomer" and durability and productivity well into his middle age. Satch was wild early, and this is reflected in his low CONTROL rating to begin with.
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HISTORICAL DO-OVERS A'S RED SOX DODGERS CUSTOM SAVES ECLIPSE LEAGUE MOON SHOT LEAGUE EVERYMAN LEAGUE GULF LEAGUE USBA Last edited by luckymann; 02-14-2022 at 11:53 PM. |
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#8 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 13,000
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Dihigo, Martin
The Great One, perhaps even the GOAT.
This profile presents Martin as a straight-up two-way player. Which of course he wasn't in real life, where he started off as a pitcher and then moved into an everyday role. I have kept Marty's pitching profile pretty flat, and also intend to manually wean him off pitching in at least one of my saves where he features by gradually ticking his pitching ratings down in the early part, but do with him as you see fit. I have also included his ratings page to give you more insight in what you should be getting.
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HISTORICAL DO-OVERS A'S RED SOX DODGERS CUSTOM SAVES ECLIPSE LEAGUE MOON SHOT LEAGUE EVERYMAN LEAGUE GULF LEAGUE USBA Last edited by luckymann; 02-15-2022 at 07:43 AM. |
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#9 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 13,000
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Bell, Cool Papa
The OG Man of Steal.
I ignored his early incarnation as a pitcher altogether, as I did for a number of other players with similar IRL career paths, unless their pitching period was useful in the game. I also gave him quite the slow burn trajectory.
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HISTORICAL DO-OVERS A'S RED SOX DODGERS CUSTOM SAVES ECLIPSE LEAGUE MOON SHOT LEAGUE EVERYMAN LEAGUE GULF LEAGUE USBA Last edited by luckymann; 02-15-2022 at 09:59 PM. |
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#10 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 13,000
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Charleston, Oscar
One of the few NeLers that actually seems to import within some sort of fairly accurate representation. Still, plenty of tweaks needed and given here.
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HISTORICAL DO-OVERS A'S RED SOX DODGERS CUSTOM SAVES ECLIPSE LEAGUE MOON SHOT LEAGUE EVERYMAN LEAGUE GULF LEAGUE USBA |
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#11 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 13,000
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Leonard, Buck
The reason why I settled on using the straight average of the raw Seamheads stats and EC's MLEs is because, in my opinion, the former overstates and the latter overcorrects.
Buck's IRL slash of 342/446/576 is marked down to just 300/379/484 in the MLE context. My average sits him at 321/413/530, and I have given him a POT at roughly 110%. I think this works well.
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HISTORICAL DO-OVERS A'S RED SOX DODGERS CUSTOM SAVES ECLIPSE LEAGUE MOON SHOT LEAGUE EVERYMAN LEAGUE GULF LEAGUE USBA |
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#12 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 13,000
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Lloyd, John Henry
I had a bad experience with Pop in my Bucs save - it was early on and I was only just figuring out how recalc cruels these players. Such a shame because he was an out-and-out gun IRL, often compared favourably with Honus Wagner.
Another who gets treated fairly harshly by the MLEs, I started him low and settled his POT at about 112%.
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HISTORICAL DO-OVERS A'S RED SOX DODGERS CUSTOM SAVES ECLIPSE LEAGUE MOON SHOT LEAGUE EVERYMAN LEAGUE GULF LEAGUE USBA |
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#13 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Inside The Game
Posts: 30,937
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Love your work on this. I love importing various NeL into my saves and I have around 15 in my EBL vs MLB league. i hand edit all stats but yours looks more in depth. My Martin DiHigo is a CL and isn't great as the plate. I've had to edit Paige twice but he is far from great. He almsot won the CYA in Colorado but it was Colorado, so he failed. He is closing in on 200 Wins at age 34. Gibson won his 1st MVP at age 31 but would have won a 2nd had he not gotten injured the year previous.
If i do not have word or a similar free program how else can i view the D/Ls? Any plans or chance to do the 3 women, Peanut Johnson, Toni Stone & Connie Morgan? I am guessing no since they are not in the DB anyway and their stats are incomplete. Mamie Johnson is a great, though oft-injured SP with the Brewers in my league. The other 2 are really good AAA players. I plan on doing a RD KC Monarchs team up against other RD players in the near future. i will use your imports.
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Go today don't wait for tomorrow It isn't promised, all the time you get borrowed Don't live your life for other people Don't bottle your emotions till they crack and fill a couple just sorrows Take your mind and refocus go get a paper write your goals out Throw your middle fingers to all your haters "Stay Strong" ![]() |
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#14 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 13,000
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Quote:
With regard to accessing these Excel files - are you on a Mac? If so, you should be able to open them in Numbers. If on a Windows, doesn't Excel come free with it?
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HISTORICAL DO-OVERS A'S RED SOX DODGERS CUSTOM SAVES ECLIPSE LEAGUE MOON SHOT LEAGUE EVERYMAN LEAGUE GULF LEAGUE USBA |
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#15 |
All Star Reserve
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 909
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Nice, luckymann!
A teaser: I am probably a month or so away from publishing a set of players from the late 1800s through 1910. It covers everyone from the stars (Frank Grant and HR Johnson are probably the best of them) down to players who are probably lifelong minor leaguers. My guess is it will be a supporting set of data for this list, but of interest to a similar audience. I'll weigh in on these projections as they overlap with folks I have done in some sort of final form, if desired.
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Year II of the WBL on the Forums STARTS HERE. Baseball The Way It Never Was https://wbl.dmlco.com/ i9s: Curated, Bespoke MLE's for NeL Players. https://www.i9s.org/ |
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#16 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 13,000
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Quote:
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HISTORICAL DO-OVERS A'S RED SOX DODGERS CUSTOM SAVES ECLIPSE LEAGUE MOON SHOT LEAGUE EVERYMAN LEAGUE GULF LEAGUE USBA |
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#17 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 13,000
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Smith, Charlie ("Chino")
I just did a profile of Chino in my Eclipse League Thread, so thought I'd best add him here as well.
Here's what I say in that other post to save you hunting it down. Few ballplayers, if any, have fascinated me in the way Charles "Chino" Smith has in the short time since I became aware of his existence. The Babe, simply for his prodigiousness, has always been my favourite. Of the current crop, Juan Soto, who I could watch for hours. In fact, the closest comparison would perhaps not be a baseball player at all, but rather Muhammad Ali, although Chino isn't quite in his league with regard to my respect and admiration. Not yet, anyway. Perhaps it is the paucity of information about Chino that fascinates me; perhaps it's the content of the little that does exist. I don't know; nor, frankly, do I really care. He was just 5'6", but carried himself as if a foot taller. Jim Riley says this of him: This compact dynamo who, according to Satchel Paige, was one of the two greatest hitters in the Negro Leagues, was a scrapper, arousing the fans and intimidating pitchers as he shot through the world of black baseball like a meteor, with a career as brief as it was bright. He adds: A line-drive hitter whose lined shots to all parts of the ballpark looked like frozen ropes, he [...] hit everything thrown at him and respected no pitcher. Sometimes he would spit at a pitcher's best offerings as [they] came across the plate, taking two strikes, before lining a base hit back through the middle. Supremely confident at the plate, the little slugger had no weakness. Now I know most of these types of stories have been embellished beyond recognition, so let's have a look at him from a statistical perspective. For reasons I shall get to in a little while, Smith played just 7 seasons in the various NeLs between 1925 and 1931. Seamheads lists his career slash line as 398/485/659 over 945 ABs, with 82 doubles, 21 triples and 41 HR. They have allocated him an OPS+ of 179 and 14.3 WAR. Eric Chalek's MLEs - my secondary statistical source for NeLers - has him at 332/399/560, with 43.3 WAR or better than 6 per season. The tricky part of assessing Chino is threefold. As no lesser source than Strat-o-Matic put it thus in the handbook to their Negro League All-Stars pack: Number one, not only was he a Hall of Fame candidate in 2006, everybody who ever played against the man said he was one of the two or three greatest hitters they ever saw. [...] Number two, he played in an extremely hitter-friendly home ballpark in New York, which skewered his performance. And number three, he died of Yellow Fever when he was only 30-years-old. Yes, tragically his career ended almost before it had begun. SoM used his Cuban League stats to settle on their ratings for him. I just stuck with my own methodology and am OK with how it turned out. Perhaps I have inflated his ratings somewhat, but who knows - he could have got even better and maybe I have in fact sold him short.
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HISTORICAL DO-OVERS A'S RED SOX DODGERS CUSTOM SAVES ECLIPSE LEAGUE MOON SHOT LEAGUE EVERYMAN LEAGUE GULF LEAGUE USBA |
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#18 |
Minors (Single A)
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Lincroft, NJ
Posts: 60
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Thanks, Luckymann! I have taken an interest to the Negro leagues recently. I am playing a game now, and took a different approach to yours. I have all the historical settings set to bring in players on their real life teams. I do NOT have real-life transactions turned on, but otherwise pretty close to full historical settings. The big exception is I turned OFF the Color Barrier check box for the majors, and turned OFF Negro League rules for that league. then let it play out. The first Negro League player to stand out was Oscar Charleston. He eventually made my world's Hall of Fame. His stats below.
I pretty quickly realized two major problems with the Negro League players. The obvious one is that their ratings are generally way below where they should be. The second, less obvious flaw, is that most of the players' injury rating are real high, so they end up almost never playing a full season. I get that the NeL played less games. Perhaps in future the injury ratings could be based on percentage of games played? It appears they are based on number of games played. Eventually I started modifying players individually in the editor as you did, however always keeping development on. For current stats, I used the current and previous two years stats and manually entered them. Baseball reference is great for this; you can highlight 3 years of stats and a pop-up will appear with totals and averages for just those seasons. I did the same for potential ratings, picking the best 3 contiguous seasons in the future. Anyway, I've included a few screen shots of some of my NeL players' results just for comparison. I've noticed certain players just do not perform well no matter what you do. Cool Papa Bell seems to e one of those. Surprisingly, Christy Mathewson seems to be another, but that's a topic for another day :-) Last edited by ldambrosa; 02-17-2022 at 11:00 AM. Reason: used wrong word |
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#19 |
Minors (Single A)
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Lincroft, NJ
Posts: 60
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Oscar Charleston
As you can see, Oscar did pretty well for himself, and with little intervention from me. I'll take 1800+ runs scored, 1500+ RBIs, a 144 OPS+ and 106 WAR. He and Turkey Stearnes were two of the best sluggers in the majors thru my 1920s and early 1930s.
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#20 |
Minors (Single A)
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Lincroft, NJ
Posts: 60
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Martin Dihigo
This guy should be one of the best, but the game never seems to figure out what to do with him. This is the 3rd time I've run some sort of replay with him in it, and most of the time he's a mediocre pitcher and nothing else.
Here he doesn't get to play much in the early part of his career, then misses a bunch of seasons because I had "Missed Season IRL" check box on. So he had a very average career as a batter. As a pitcher he had two double-digit win season, but a life ERA+ below 100. Very mediocre for someone who Mel Ott (or someone else?) called the "best player he ever played against". |
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