just about had it with on-field AI

obaslg · 05-01-2003, 12:23 PM

I've posted before about the on-field AI, which I rarely notice b/c I usually sim through. I bet even regular game players don't really notice b/c they're managing their own teams, and don't notice what the AI does. If you want a really annoying experience, try watching a few games with your team with the computer manager.

The most recent example:
Tie game in the bottom of the 10th, and I have a man on first. Single by the catcher makes it first and third, one out. AI puts a pinch runner in for the catcher, on first, though the run is meaningless. The pinch runner is a D/C (catcher was an E), and doesn't steal or H&R.

We don't score, and at the end of the inning, the pinch runner, a D 2B, stays in for my A 2B, so the computer can sub in the backup catcher in the 2B's slot.

The computer downgraded my defense at two important positions in a tie game in order to put a pinch runner in place of a meaningless runner.

This fits with the trends I see:
- the AI gives defense almost no value, even in close games
- the AI pinch runs in pointless situations
- the AI fails to consider long-term implications late in tie games - i.e., what position it's leaving itself in if it fails to score that inning after making substitions

Like most of us, I love OOTP, and know that it's easily the best game of its type, but I see something like this ridiculous move more than half the times I play out games. The on-field AI needs an overhaul.

Gastric ReFlux · 05-01-2003, 12:40 PM

Yah, the onfield AI needs some improvement. I've seen it pinch-hit for someone in the 8th slot, use the pinch-hitter for a sac bunt, then let the pitcher come up to the plate and hit.

Ow. That's bad.

Henry · 05-01-2003, 01:02 PM

ah... hold on a second.... A case could be made that the runner was replaced to reduce the chance of a double play.

Now, I'm not saying that's what the AI was doing, but it isn't necessarily a "meaningless" move. If it DID do that for the stated reason, then the AI must have figured protecting the 3rd out was more important than defense since it was expecting to score the winning run in the 10th.

Dumber things have been done in real life - and at the cost of some manager's jobs.

Henry

Gastric ReFlux · 05-01-2003, 01:06 PM

No doubt, Henry. There are plenty of real-life examples of managers making bad moves. But if one plays out games, the AI makes far too many bad decisions regarding pinch hitting and fielding. I don't think anyone here is about to say the AI should never make a bad decision, just that right now it's making too many of those. Enough so that if it were managing a real-life club, the GM would give it the axe after only a month or two.

Henry · 05-01-2003, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gastric ReFlux
No doubt, Henry. There are plenty of real-life examples of managers making bad moves. But if one plays out games, the AI makes far too many bad decisions regarding pinch hitting and fielding. I don't think anyone here is about to say the AI should never make a bad decision, just that right now it's making too many of those. Enough so that if it were managing a real-life club, the GM would give it the axe after only a month or two.

Ok - I can buy that... but since the coding is pretty much custom designed play-by-play (or better put situation-by-situation) the only way we can improve on this is to uncover as many of the specific situations as possible, and list them with suggestions on what SHOULD have been done.

That will give Markus a way to find the logic and tweak it per situation.

Henry

obaslg · 05-01-2003, 01:49 PM

Reflux said it perfectly for me - it's the frequency - like I said, I think in a majority of games. You really don't notice it unless you have the computer managing your team, so you can immediately tell what a dumb move it is.

Also, regardless of the pinch-running the defensive sub is what really drove me nuts, and I've seen that kind of ridiculous thing many times before, including (my last post on this) putting a C in CF, an SP at 2B, etc., all without discernable reason. I would fire a manager after doing that once, maybe twice.

I think the trends I listed are regular issues.

Bears5122 · 05-01-2003, 01:52 PM

The AI is a bit jumpy when it comes to substitutions. It will clear it's bench in every close game. I have to agree with the original poster and hoped this can be tweaked in the next update.

mpsquid · 05-01-2003, 02:35 PM

I'm fairly new to the game, but have you noticed if you turn down the frequency of pinch runners for your team how much it helps?

Curious if that would just deter all pinch runners, or pinch running in certain situations. Any idea?

DreamTeams · 05-01-2003, 02:36 PM

There is a setting in the individual player settings where you can instruct that a player never be pinch hit for. But, it's rendered useless if the team is computer controlled. The computer will just set it back to 'pinch hit if necessay.' There is so much that we could do if only the gamer had control of team and player tendencies for computer controlled teams. Or at least allow any changes we make to stick.

Cusefan95 · 05-01-2003, 02:42 PM

I had the same situation, 1st and 3rd, but with 2 outs. The AI put in a pinch runner on first. The game was tied in the BOTTOM of extra innings. On top of that, on the first pitch, my runner on first is stealing second. I wish I could have taken a picture of my face when I read that. Luck would have it that he was safe, but still, was he hoping the throw would go into centerfield and the winning run would score that way?

clarnzz · 05-01-2003, 04:37 PM

Seen that one, just had another.

2 outs, runner on first and the pitcher at the plate. Runner steals second is caught and then the pitcher is leading off the next inning.

Henry · 05-01-2003, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by clarnzz
Seen that one, just had another.

2 outs, runner on first and the pitcher at the plate. Runner steals second is caught and then the pitcher is leading off the next inning.

If I'm reading that right - it's correct... runner caught at 2nd is third out ?

Henry

Henry · 05-01-2003, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cusefan95
I had the same situation, 1st and 3rd, but with 2 outs. The AI put in a pinch runner on first. The game was tied in the BOTTOM of extra innings. On top of that, on the first pitch, my runner on first is stealing second. I wish I could have taken a picture of my face when I read that. Luck would have it that he was safe, but still, was he hoping the throw would go into centerfield and the winning run would score that way?

Was the 2nd run important ? Getting himself to 2nd would set up a 2 run single.

Henry

Gastric ReFlux · 05-01-2003, 04:43 PM

The second run ain't all that important in the bottom half of extra innings.

Henry · 05-01-2003, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gastric ReFlux
The second run ain't all that important in the bottom half of extra innings.

opps... missed the "tied in extra innings" comment....

(never mind...

)

Henry

obaslg · 05-01-2003, 04:54 PM

Re: stealing second with the pitcher up and 2 out.

I think that may be questionable, but I'm much more concerned with the completely nonsensical, like we're talking about here.

Sweed · 05-01-2003, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cusefan95
I had the same situation, 1st and 3rd, but with 2 outs. The AI put in a pinch runner on first. The game was tied in the BOTTOM of extra innings. On top of that, on the first pitch, my runner on first is stealing second. I wish I could have taken a picture of my face when I read that. Luck would have it that he was safe, but still, was he hoping the throw would go into centerfield and the winning run would score that way?

not saying this is why it happens in ootp but IRL sometimes the runner will steal if not being held tightly. Usually there is no throw and no stolen base recorded because of "defensive indifference". This I've seen many times. the reason to steal if they are giving it is it takes away the short throw to second for the force and the third out. granted it will rarely make a difference but you never know, slight bobble on a grounder to short and there's no longer a force at second and a speedy runner beats the play at first and the run scores.

clarnzz · 05-01-2003, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Henry
If I'm reading that right - it's correct... runner caught at 2nd is third out ?

Henry

Yeah, what happened is correct, but the strategy was terrible.
The odds of the pitcher recording a hit are slim and the chances of the runner being caught stealing and your pitcher leading off the next inning are much greater than the chance of the stolen base being successful and the pitcher also recording a hit and the runner scoring.

In my opinion, almost any strategy that results in the pitcher leading off the next inning is bad. When by not attempting to steal and letting the pitcher get out you have the top of your order coming up the next inning.

Henry · 05-01-2003, 05:02 PM

Good point - and the question of why the pitcher is batting at all still comes to mind.

Henry

obaslg · 05-01-2003, 05:11 PM

I just want to keep a focus on these things that cannot be justified at all, because I often hear responses to these complaints (not from Markus, et al., but from other players) that there's some justification for this or that, and I don't want lost the fact that the AI often does things that cannot be justified at all.

05-01-2003, 12:23 PM	#1
obaslg All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 887	just about had it with on-field AI I've posted before about the on-field AI, which I rarely notice b/c I usually sim through. I bet even regular game players don't really notice b/c they're managing their own teams, and don't notice what the AI does. If you want a really annoying experience, try watching a few games with your team with the computer manager. The most recent example: Tie game in the bottom of the 10th, and I have a man on first. Single by the catcher makes it first and third, one out. AI puts a pinch runner in for the catcher, on first, though the run is meaningless. The pinch runner is a D/C (catcher was an E), and doesn't steal or H&R. We don't score, and at the end of the inning, the pinch runner, a D 2B, stays in for my A 2B, so the computer can sub in the backup catcher in the 2B's slot. The computer downgraded my defense at two important positions in a tie game in order to put a pinch runner in place of a meaningless runner. This fits with the trends I see: - the AI gives defense almost no value, even in close games - the AI pinch runs in pointless situations - the AI fails to consider long-term implications late in tie games - i.e., what position it's leaving itself in if it fails to score that inning after making substitions Like most of us, I love OOTP, and know that it's easily the best game of its type, but I see something like this ridiculous move more than half the times I play out games. The on-field AI needs an overhaul.

05-01-2003, 01:49 PM	#6
obaslg All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 887	Reflux said it perfectly for me - it's the frequency - like I said, I think in a majority of games. You really don't notice it unless you have the computer managing your team, so you can immediately tell what a dumb move it is. Also, regardless of the pinch-running the defensive sub is what really drove me nuts, and I've seen that kind of ridiculous thing many times before, including (my last post on this) putting a C in CF, an SP at 2B, etc., all without discernable reason. I would fire a manager after doing that once, maybe twice. I think the trends I listed are regular issues. __________________ Realy good musition of many insterments, including the hyperbolic vitriol.

05-01-2003, 02:35 PM	#8
mpsquid Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 182	I'm fairly new to the game, but have you noticed if you turn down the frequency of pinch runners for your team how much it helps? Curious if that would just deter all pinch runners, or pinch running in certain situations. Any idea? __________________ DDBL- Point Breeze Salty Dogs HFTC- BrewCrew

05-01-2003, 02:36 PM	#9
DreamTeams Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 2,522	There is a setting in the individual player settings where you can instruct that a player never be pinch hit for. But, it's rendered useless if the team is computer controlled. The computer will just set it back to 'pinch hit if necessay.' There is so much that we could do if only the gamer had control of team and player tendencies for computer controlled teams. Or at least allow any changes we make to stick. __________________

05-01-2003, 02:42 PM	#10
Cusefan95 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Manchester, CT Posts: 109	I had the same situation, 1st and 3rd, but with 2 outs. The AI put in a pinch runner on first. The game was tied in the BOTTOM of extra innings. On top of that, on the first pitch, my runner on first is stealing second. I wish I could have taken a picture of my face when I read that. Luck would have it that he was safe, but still, was he hoping the throw would go into centerfield and the winning run would score that way? __________________ 81-78 2003 NCAA Division 1-A Men's Basketball Champions

05-01-2003, 12:40 PM	#2
Gastric ReFlux Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Member #3409 Posts: 8,350	Yah, the onfield AI needs some improvement. I've seen it pinch-hit for someone in the 8th slot, use the pinch-hitter for a sac bunt, then let the pitcher come up to the plate and hit. Ow. That's bad.

05-01-2003, 01:02 PM	#3
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	ah... hold on a second.... A case could be made that the runner was replaced to reduce the chance of a double play. Now, I'm not saying that's what the AI was doing, but it isn't necessarily a "meaningless" move. If it DID do that for the stated reason, then the AI must have figured protecting the 3rd out was more important than defense since it was expecting to score the winning run in the 10th. Dumber things have been done in real life - and at the cost of some manager's jobs. Henry

05-01-2003, 01:06 PM	#4
Gastric ReFlux Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Member #3409 Posts: 8,350	No doubt, Henry. There are plenty of real-life examples of managers making bad moves. But if one plays out games, the AI makes far too many bad decisions regarding pinch hitting and fielding. I don't think anyone here is about to say the AI should never make a bad decision, just that right now it's making too many of those. Enough so that if it were managing a real-life club, the GM would give it the axe after only a month or two.

05-01-2003, 01:52 PM	#7
Bears5122 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 847	The AI is a bit jumpy when it comes to substitutions. It will clear it's bench in every close game. I have to agree with the original poster and hoped this can be tweaked in the next update.

05-01-2003, 04:37 PM	#11
clarnzz All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Following everyone off a cliff. Posts: 1,522	Seen that one, just had another. 2 outs, runner on first and the pitcher at the plate. Runner steals second is caught and then the pitcher is leading off the next inning.

05-01-2003, 04:43 PM	#14
Gastric ReFlux Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Member #3409 Posts: 8,350	The second run ain't all that important in the bottom half of extra innings.

05-01-2003, 04:54 PM	#16
obaslg All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 887	Re: stealing second with the pitcher up and 2 out. I think that may be questionable, but I'm much more concerned with the completely nonsensical, like we're talking about here.

05-01-2003, 05:02 PM	#19
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	Good point - and the question of why the pitcher is batting at all still comes to mind. Henry

05-01-2003, 05:11 PM	#20
obaslg All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 887	I just want to keep a focus on these things that cannot be justified at all, because I often hear responses to these complaints (not from Markus, et al., but from other players) that there's some justification for this or that, and I don't want lost the fact that the AI often does things that cannot be justified at all. __________________ Realy good musition of many insterments, including the hyperbolic vitriol.