Injured List

[Pelican]

Here is what may seem like an odd question. Why can't I choose to place a player on the IL (formerly DL) due to serious underperformance, that suggests an injury or some physical problem, or maybe some rest would cure the slump? Maybe, I recognize, the answer is that OOTP does not permit this, because MLB does not permit this? I admit there is no objective medical evidence of injury. He doesn't show up as injured or tired (except normal fatigue between starts). But in my case, trading for Mike Minor in the midst of a strong season, he has not made it past the third inning in two starts. So, something is objectively wrong with his velocity, movement, command, control. I literally can't keep sending him out there. I don't want to demote him to AAA, and he is out of options anyway. I don't want to send him to the bullpen. It would hurt no one else (only my team) to put him on the IL for ten days. It might well help him. I'm out of options. I may play his next start on pitch-by-pitch, to better understand what is wrong. But, looking at the pitch chart, the game is already telling me that he has lost it. And that would seem to be a physical/medical diagnosis for a pitcher. Thoughts on this?

[AdequateRandomGaming]

Originally Posted by Pelican

Here is what may seem like an odd question. Why can't I choose to place a player on the IL (formerly DL) due to serious underperformance, that suggests an injury or some physical problem, or maybe some rest would cure the slump? Maybe, I recognize, the answer is that OOTP does not permit this, because MLB does not permit this? I admit there is no objective medical evidence of injury. He doesn't show up as injured or tired (except normal fatigue between starts). But in my case, trading for Mike Minor in the midst of a strong season, he has not made it past the third inning in two starts. So, something is objectively wrong with his velocity, movement, command, control. I literally can't keep sending him out there. I don't want to demote him to AAA, and he is out of options anyway. I don't want to send him to the bullpen. It would hurt no one else (only my team) to put him on the IL for ten days. It might well help him. I'm out of options. I may play his next start on pitch-by-pitch, to better understand what is wrong. But, looking at the pitch chart, the game is already telling me that he has lost it. And that would seem to be a physical/medical diagnosis for a pitcher. Thoughts on this?

Sample size is way too small to be entertaining weird ideas like this, but it is your game, you are always free to go in commish mode and fix it the way you want it.

[Sweed]

Yes because IRL you can't do this. I think it is in the bargaining agreement with MLBPA. Most (all?) of these roster rules are in place to prevent teams from hiding player either keep them from being able to play because of a grudge etc.
or in your case to store away talented players until they want to use them. Short of an actual medical issue on record (and as you note there is not one) you cannot and should not be able to use the IL this way. It's not what it's for.

I would argue it would only helps your team and hurt the others. Per your words he's hurting your team (you want to bring in a replacement that will play better), ie anything that hurts you is helping me By rule you have to make a hard decision. If you could just "hide" players on the IL because of performance why have options at all? In that world anytime I have a player, out of options, I don't want to lose, but don't want to play, I'll just put him on IL. Problem solved. The rule is there for a reason.

I will also add I don't think OOTP goes to the depth of having player performance going down being an indicator of an undiagnosed injury. It could be your guy is having a downturn in ability (ratings) or just a "simple" cold streak.

[oldfatbaldguy]

Originally Posted by Sweed

I will also add I don't think OOTP goes to the depth of having player performance going down being an indicator of an undiagnosed injury.

Generally, it's deep enough to make people wonder how deep it goes, and that's a triumph. Specifically, I've seen an awful lot of pitchers revealed to be injured after a bad inning. Weeks-long slumps would be a different thing, ofc.

[billyray1984]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Yes because IRL you can't do this. I think it is in the bargaining agreement with MLBPA. Most (all?) of these roster rules are in place to prevent teams from hiding player either keep them from being able to play because of a grudge etc.
or in your case to store away talented players until they want to use them. Short of an actual medical issue on record (and as you note there is not one) you cannot and should not be able to use the IL this way. It's not what it's for.

I would argue it would only helps your team and hurt the others. Per your words he's hurting your team (you want to bring in a replacement that will play better), ie anything that hurts you is helping me By rule you have to make a hard decision. If you could just "hide" players on the IL because of performance why have options at all? In that world anytime I have a player, out of options, I don't want to lose, but don't want to play, I'll just put him on IL. Problem solved. The rule is there for a reason.

I will also add I don't think OOTP goes to the depth of having player performance going down being an indicator of an undiagnosed injury. It could be your guy is having a downturn in ability (ratings) or just a "simple" cold streak.

I know that organizations used to use the IL like Pelican is suggesting (maybe they still are, but I know it used to be really prevalent). From the top of my head, Matt Antonelli was "asked to agree" (i.e. son, fake an injury or get cut now) to be put on the phantom dl to make room on the roster for someone else before finally being released.

It's illegal as you pointed out.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by oldfatbaldguy

Generally, it's deep enough to make people wonder how deep it goes, and that's a triumph. Specifically, I've seen an awful lot of pitchers revealed to be injured after a bad inning. Weeks-long slumps would be a different thing, ofc.

Agreed. And I did say "I don't think" and I could be wrong. I do believe seeing a P with declining velocity in a game is an indicator of tiredness so, who knows? Maybe there is something to the idea of subnormal performance being an indicator of a physical problem? Definitely possible but push come to shove or Matt or Markus saying differently I don't think it's there. Though I'd be happy to be wrong

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by billyray1984

I know that organizations used to use the IL like Pelican is suggesting (maybe they still are, but I know it used to be really prevalent). From the top of my head, Matt Antonelli was "asked to agree" (i.e. son, fake an injury or get cut now) to be put on the phantom dl to make room on the roster for someone else before finally being released.

It's illegal as you pointed out.

I would imagine they still do

[BirdWatcher]

Originally Posted by oldfatbaldguy

Generally, it's deep enough to make people wonder how deep it goes, and that's a triumph. Specifically, I've seen an awful lot of pitchers revealed to be injured after a bad inning. Weeks-long slumps would be a different thing, ofc.

I've certainly had this feeling at times. I remember in particular that a young pitcher on my team was coming off a Cy Young (well, it's not called that in my fictional league) Award season and got off to a horrible start the next season in a few starts and then went down with a season-ending injury.
I'm sure that his poor start was just small sample size and completely coincidental to the injury that then befell him. Still, some small part of me always wondered.
And a few other times it seems like a starting pitcher is having an uncharacteristically poor start and then is forced to leave the game with an injury, often of the nagging day-to-day variety.
Intellectually I realize that I am probably seeing patterns where they don't exist. But it's fun to imagine that the poor pitching was indicative of a not-yet identified injury.
I can't say that I have any anecdotal history with this with position players though.

[thehef]

There are a number of ways this situation could play out in real life, and one of them is certainly that the player would agree to going on the DL due to a "tired arm" or "sore shoulder," possibly followed by a minor-league rehab stint, both of which - in reality - would be to buy time to work on mechanics.

That's unless the pitcher were being stubborn and didn't mind getting shelled at the expense of his team in the grand scheme of trying to work out his issues in major-league games.

At any rate, I think my instinct would be to send him out there at least one more time, as two poor starts in a row is not exactly unique to the careers of many an HOF pitcher. Maybe if he has one or two more poor starts, I might skip his turn in the rotation to get him some extra rest... You say you don't want to send him to the bullpen, but a couple weeks in the 'pen might also be the answer.

[Bobfather]

I just edit an injury in. Mostly I do months long injury so it can also hurt the team.

[Pelican]

The responses have been thoughtful and helpful and provocative. Glad that others have struggled through this. And yes, two starts is a very small sample size, in the course of a long season. It’s just that the change was so dramatic, and with even the few outs being “loud outs”, my instinct was to think something was wrong. Like the trading team concealed an injury.

In trying to analyze this, maybe I missed the obvious. What’s the one thing that changed? A player got traded. Midseason. To a bad team (the 2021 Orioles). From a pitchers’ park (KC) to a hitters park (Camden Yards). So, just as IRL this could mess up someone’s head, new teammates, new defense behind you, different lineup supporting you, so too in OOTP?

So yeah, I’m going to run him out there at least one more time, on pitch-by-pitch mode, so I can better understand what’s going on. It’s not like I am in a pennant race. If the bad performance keeps up, maybe long relief out of the bullpen is the answer. Or skipping his turn in the rotation at least once. And I may look at his contract status. I’ve extended guys - usually when they ask - and that seems to help, sometimes, not always. Of course, a real gamble to extend someone who is not getting anybody out.

I’ll keep you posted. If Minor goes out and pitches a shutout, I will look like an overreacting fool. But I’m still on the learning curve here. I can chalk this up to experience. And believe me, I’m not knocking the game. Stuff happens. Like in “League of Their Own”: “Hard?! Of course it’s hard. If it were easy, everybody would do it”.

[Pelican]

Interesting. I happened to go back to check Minor's starts with KC in the weeks before the trade to the Orioles. Turns out he had four consecutive bad starts. He was lights-out before that, as his ERA at the time of the trade was low 3.00 and he was 8-2 for a weak team. So, my scout failed to do due diligence! And I wonder if the sudden drop in performance caused the AI to approve the trade (for Trey Mancini, having a subpar comeback year in Baltimore)? Whatever else, I really can't complain that KC hid an injury. The drop in performance was out there to see. Hoping this is just a "dead arm" phase. The ratings are still high. I will just have to monitor closely for risk of injury. And maybe it's the Camden Yards effect = nearly as bad as the Coors Field affect; but at sea level. Zack Greinke and Madison Bumgarner have been giving up way more HR since being acquired by Baltimore.