RIP to active management

[api312]

Sad to see the removal of active management and strategies in the PT22 reveal. It appears OOTP has taken a pivot from PT being a strategy game first to it now being a card collecting game first and a strategy game second. My excitement for PT22 has been greatly dulled by these new changes.

[chazzycat]

I definitely share some concerns along these lines. The changes to training, the "stuff bump" as well as killing the pseudo-opener, seem likely to reduce strategic options rather than increase them, and put even more emphasis on raw roster strength.

However we haven't seen the game yet. They are also adding more sliders, and increasing the card pool variety. It's possible that these factors could end up working in favor of strategizers and balance out the other changes.

[Torgonius]

I'd be very happy to see the cheesed mechanics being replaced by multiple viable options at every position. I mean, seeing Rogers Hornsby be all 3 top all-star vote getters at multiple positions loses its appeal after the first dozen or so times.

[Neezer]

Originally Posted by chazzycat

I definitely share some concerns along these lines. The changes to training, the "stuff bump" as well as killing the pseudo-opener, seem likely to reduce strategic options rather than increase them, and put even more emphasis on raw roster strength.

However we haven't seen the game yet. They are also adding more sliders, and increasing the card pool variety. It's possible that these factors could end up working in favor of strategizers and balance out the other changes.

It was a bug. That was exploited for the purpose of gaining an edge. The game was designed with a way to use both openers and followers. But it wasnt widely used, why? Because there was a built in method to use a lineup for the follower by the other team. But there is no edge there for the team using the O, so people exploited to the bug to avoid having to designate said O and F. Any suggestion otherwise is lying because those who wanted to use O and F would have just used the game as designed. And if this bug didnt get you an edge and wasnt OP, then why are people reacting so harshly to losing it? It was even discussed on the OOTP podcasts by the host. There will always be players who only want to play games they can cheat in order to win. Last thing they want is a fair competition. The arguments are hilarious. They claim having lineups of all L or all R hitters isnt realistic. But ignore that OOTP teams have a organization of up to 5000+ cards of the greatest players in history at their access, which is not realistic. Pulling pitchers after 3 batters is realistic. But not being able to replace the batters when the pitchers go out isnt realistic, and thats ok. Then you add in the ballpark factors which are maxed out for L or R to levels never seen in any real-life stadium. Thats not realistic, but its ok. You have to be some combination of Dumb, Lame, Loser to be so all over the map and inconsistent.

[QuantaCondor]

Originally Posted by Neezer

You have to be some combination of Dumb, Lame, Loser to be so all over the map and inconsistent.

Settle down there guy, there are things in life to get outraged over but this is not one of them.

And pseudo wasn't a cheat or an exploit. Pseudo was just the basic idea that you can sit a starter early if you want to, and you're not obligated to tell the other manager who you plan on bringing in second. Pseudo is just a natural counter to overplatooned rosters. Counters and strategic interplay are what make a game interesting, and pseudo was one of the few options available to managers who wanted to try to gain a small edge. And even without the 4IP/BF18 limit, the new early bat subs already would have nerfed the effectiveness of pseudo but in a realistic and more competitively interesting way.

The overall disappointment a lot of top players like api feel is that the total removal of pseudo, training, and stuff boosts really harms the actual strategic landscape and limits both the types of players you can use and the ways you can deploy them. That sends a message about the kind of vision the devs have for PT, which is more significant than any one change here.

The reality is that the high level players of PT are basically in agreement that these changes reduce overall tactical and strategic complexity in PT. It's also less realistic to not have some of these options, but that's not the main idea. There are some gains too, like new sliders and substitutions, but the big removals seem more significant.

[Neezer]

Edited for content.

[dkgo]

I think it's clear the goal is to have broader appeal. They can afford to irritate a few hardcore min-maxers seeking to abuse every exploit available without spending anything in order to make the game more fun for the majority of players who don't enjoy checking their computer every 15 minutes on a sunday.

[Kushiel]

I agree with the Devs answers to these concerns. I am sure if they feel the pendulum swung to far, they will address that next year.

Using a strategy is quite different than using a manipulation of the game mechanics to do something that your opponent cannot counter. That is what they are trying to fix. Bravo!

[chazzycat]

Originally Posted by Kushiel

Using a strategy is quite different than using a manipulation of the game mechanics to do something that your opponent cannot counter. That is what they are trying to fix. Bravo!

The strange part to me is that they recognized this issue - the lack of ability for the opponent to counter it. I do agree that is an issue. They even developed a new feature to address it...the new options for earlier pinch hitting. But then they killed it anyway.

[Westheim]

Exploits are gone? Good!!

[BennytheKid]

Edited for content. Quoting warnable posts can be issued a warning as well. Please refrain. Report the post instead.

Didn't you quit back in april?

[api312]

I think the funny thing is the pseudo was really in response to another bug. Essentially it's opener/follower but as performed in the MLB as opposed to how the opener/follower mechanic works in game. Starting with say a RHP for a few batters and then flipping to a LHP for the majority of the innnings or vice versa. To help gain an advantage/mitigate the platoon advantage of your opponents lineup. In game the opener/follower mechanic grants the AI clairvoyance and the pseudo technique was a work around for that bug. I hope in 22 they fixed the AI clairvoyance so everyone can have access to tools used by MLB teams today. Level the playing field for everyone!

[HRBaker]

Never fails to amaze me that some folks are willing to throw the intricacies of the game they claim to love away, and manipulate the technical loopholes just for the sake of winning.


The OOTP team is taking the right tack here in trying to make the game more appealing to those who aren't willing to spend hours "looking for an angle".


I welcome the changes.

[api312]

Originally Posted by HRBaker

Never fails to amaze me that some folks are willing to throw the intricacies of the game they claim to love away, and manipulate the technical loopholes just for the sake of winning.


The OOTP team is taking the right tack here in trying to make the game more appealing to those who aren't willing to spend hours "looking for an angle".


I welcome the changes.

I think you may misunderstand - the folks calling for change to the opener follower strategy want this strategy to be made available to everyone so as to allow for a level playing field instead of the inevitable unlevel playing field currently in place where some people utilize this and others do not know how.

[waittilnextyear]

See above for quoting warnable posts... please report them instead.

Asinine posts like yours remind me why I don't frequent the forums any longer.

[waittilnextyear]

Originally Posted by dkgo

I think it's clear the goal is to have broader appeal. They can afford to irritate a few hardcore min-maxers seeking to abuse every exploit available without spending anything in order to make the game more fun for the majority of players who don't enjoy checking their computer every 15 minutes on a sunday.

This is a bit of an oversimplifcation. Some of the guys who have done the work finding "exploits" are also some of the biggest spenders. It's not so much about getting free stuff as it is matching wits with your opponent. If I do X, what will you do to counter it? I'll grant that there are some guys who have spent way more time than others, and that tilts the competitive balance, but there will be a hierarchy of hard core vs casuals with or without "exploits."

I mean there are also teams that bend the spirit of the rules by spending months in Rookie level to make a fortune in Perfect Points, and there are also people upset about that.

Originally Posted by Kushiel

I agree with the Devs answers to these concerns. I am sure if they feel the pendulum swung to far, they will address that next year.

Using a strategy is quite different than using a manipulation of the game mechanics to do something that your opponent cannot counter. That is what they are trying to fix. Bravo!

I get it that some people feel that they "can't counter," but the reality is an over-platooned lineup is what led to people looking for a counter to that in the first place. If you can run 9 LHBs in a park heavily slanted to LHBs, you better believe I'm looking for a way to minimize your advantage.

I guess we'll see how things work out in 22. Maybe taking some of the splittiness out of the cards will reduce this whole circular arms race that's been going on.

[dkgo]

I do agree that the nonsensical park factors are a problem and maybe the root of all of it. There needs to be room for different strategies, but it is pretty obvious that it is always optimal to be at an extreme, and the extremes are pretty extreme. There is no park ever that gives you a 20 percent swing in batting average by handedness. No current park is wider than 5.

Overall though it is encouraging that they are willing to make changes based on feedback. Wont please everyone but I think everything will be well received by most.

[waittilnextyear]

Originally Posted by dkgo

I do agree that the nonsensical park factors are a problem and maybe the root of all of it. There needs to be room for different strategies, but it is pretty obvious that it is always optimal to be at an extreme, and the extremes are pretty extreme. There is no park ever that gives you a 20 percent swing in batting average by handedness. No current park is wider than 5.

Overall though it is encouraging that they are willing to make changes based on feedback. Wont please everyone but I think everything will be well received by most.

Very true that they can't please everyone. I don't envy the decision-makers there.

Right up there with the .900 vs 1.100 park factors has been the double dip splits. For the righty pitcher to get an advantage over a righty batter AND for the righty batter to get an additional nerf against said righty pitcher leads to people seeking out those extremes. I am cautiously optimistic that they've addressed this. Maybe it's not "fixed," but they have acknowledged it as something they've worked on. Then again people probably don't want totally split-less cards either, so this (like pleasing the special interest groups in the community) is a balancing act.

[neugey]

Most of these things are going to be tricky to fine tune in a competitive online world, but I think they are targeting the right things - nerfing the more absurd aspects and hopefully balancing things out a little bit.

[Rosscoe]

Originally Posted by Neezer

It was a bug. That was exploited for the purpose of gaining an edge. The game was designed with a way to use both openers and followers. But it wasnt widely used, why? Because there was a built in method to use a lineup for the follower by the other team. But there is no edge there for the team using the O, so people exploited to the bug to avoid having to designate said O and F. Any suggestion otherwise is lying because those who wanted to use O and F would have just used the game as designed. And if this bug didnt get you an edge and wasnt OP, then why are people reacting so harshly to losing it? It was even discussed on the OOTP podcasts by the host. There will always be players who only want to play games they can cheat in order to win. Last thing they want is a fair competition. The arguments are hilarious. They claim having lineups of all L or all R hitters isnt realistic. But ignore that OOTP teams have a organization of up to 5000+ cards of the greatest players in history at their access, which is not realistic. Pulling pitchers after 3 batters is realistic. But not being able to replace the batters when the pitchers go out isnt realistic, and thats ok. Then you add in the ballpark factors which are maxed out for L or R to levels never seen in any real-life stadium. Thats not realistic, but its ok. You have to be some combination of Dumb, Lame, Loser to be so all over the map and inconsistent.

I'm sorry Wompa, I assumed you only used fake accounts on twitter to troll people you don't agree with. Putting in the work across the forums and discord too is next level commitment to your hate campaign.