Suggestion: Scouting report should track all ratings

[CBeisbol]

From this thread

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=322053

Currently, we can't see how things like stolen base ability, hold runner, range, contact vs right or vs left change through out a player's career.


And then there is defense

Currently, the scouting report only shows a defense rating, but not the range, arm, and error avoidance ratings that make up that defense rating.

Further, the overall defense rating is dependent upon position. Meaning, if a player changes position, the defense rating changes, even if the player's defensive ability didn't actually change.

Take an example of a third baseman who moves to first. Maybe this player is rated a 4 at third and a 6 at first. Looking at the scouting report, it would appear their defense got better - changing from 4 to 6. But, it did not, the player just moved to an easier position. The player may even have gotten worse defensively (say a decrease in arm) but the scouting report says they improved (because first base is easier than third and arm rating is less important). The scouting report, as is, is completely misleading in these situations. It compares apples to oranges (first basemen to third basemen) instead of apples to apples (range rating), oranges to oranges (arm rating) and pears to pears (error avoidance).

The scouting report should track more information



EDIT
Take the following player

You can see the scouting report shows an increase in defense rating in August of 1993. But, this was because the player was moved to first base. Because of that position switch, we can't compare apples to apples. Did his defensive ratings get better? get worse? stay the same? We don't know.

The separate defensive ratings (arm, range, avoid error) should be shown in the scouting report.

[CBeisbol]

Take this CF for example

His defense got worse
But, why?
Less range?
Weaker arm?
More errors?

Impossible to know.

That information should be stored and accessible.

[Brad K]

I hope fixing this "problem" is real low on the priority list. It certainly should be below fixing the problem with elite fielders being too good, the problem with elite base stealers not being good enough, and the retired players unretiring. I hope its even behind fixing 3D fly ball trajectory.

There is useful information in the original thread mentioned by CB. I suggest it be read.

While we have a few people asking for more information its interesting that the game offers options to not save all the scouting reports. These options would not be offered if the OOTP community didn't desire them. The reason the community doesn't want to save them is it judges them without value.

Concerning the example of wanting historical information on why a CFs rating dropped, I have to ask what this would be used for? If his overall rating drops to unacceptable for CF then he'll be moved to LF or RF or where ever his overall rating is acceptable. Why his rating dropped is irrelevant to this decision. Its never been explained in the other thread why this information is useful.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by Brad K

I hope fixing this "problem" is real low on the priority list. It certainly should be below fixing the problem with elite fielders being too good, the problem with elite base stealers not being good enough, and the retired players unretiring. I hope its even behind fixing 3D fly ball trajectory.

There is useful information in the original thread mentioned by CB. I suggest it be read.

While we have a few people asking for more information its interesting that the game offers options to not save all the scouting reports. These options would not be offered if the OOTP community didn't desire them. The reason the community doesn't want to save them is it judges them without value.

Concerning the example of wanting historical information on why a CFs rating dropped, I have to ask what this would be used for? If his overall rating drops to unacceptable for CF then he'll be moved to LF or RF or where ever his overall rating is acceptable. Why his rating dropped is irrelevant to this decision. Its never been explained in the other thread why this information is useful.

How can anyone know if it is useful if it doesn't exist?
Or if collecting the information is so odiously difficult that no one does it?

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

How can anyone know if it is useful if it doesn't exist?

I don't see people inventing things on speculation it might be useful but having no idea of what the use would be. You have no idea what this data is useful for.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by Brad K

I don't see people inventing things on speculation it might be useful but having no idea of what the use would be.

Are you unfamiliar with the entire history of science?


But, more on topic

Suppose there is an OF who shows declining defense.
This OF still has excellent range and arm, though
Suppose someone wants to sign said OFer. Thinking, I can play them in center for a while and then move them to right when they don't have the range for center.

Currently, there is no way to see how range and arm (nor error avoidance) are changing separately.

Is range declining faster than arm? Is arm declining faster than range? How fast is range declining? Is range declining? Or is the decrease in defense due to a decrease in range and/or error avoidance? These seem like things people might want to know. You may not, that's fine.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

Are you unfamiliar with the entire history of science?

This isn't science. You want a feature created because you say it will have a purpose but that you can't state what the purpose is and that you can't say until its created.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

Suppose there is an OF who shows declining defense.
This OF still has excellent range and arm, though
Suppose someone wants to sign said OFer. Thinking, I can play them in center for a while and then move them to right when they don't have the range for center.

Currently, there is no way to see how range and arm (nor error avoidance) are changing separately.

Is range declining faster than arm? Is arm declining faster than range? How fast is range declining? Is range declining? Or is the decrease in defense due to a decrease in range and/or error avoidance? These seem like things people might want to know. You may not, that's fine.

How do you know abilities change at different rates? And if they do, are past changes indicative of future changes? Or is this like the warning on a stock purchase form that past performance isn't necessarily indicative of future performance.

I find it interesting that the person who first brought this up and vowed to post here about it didn't and you picked up the baton and did it.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by Brad K

This isn't science. You want a feature created because you say it will have a purpose but that you can't state what the purpose is and that you can't say until its created.

You brought up science
?????

And, yes, of course it can be science

Originally Posted by Brad K

How do you know abilities change at different rates?

I don't. Because OOTP doesn't give us a way to track that
That'd be another reason for the scouting reports to have all the scouting information

I find it interesting that the person who first brought this up and vowed to post here about it didn't and you picked up the baton and did it.

Yeah
That's how discussion forums sometimes work

[Brad K]

Additionally I want to point out that from a predictive standpoint having detailed historical ratings on a player falls clearly and fully into the problem of an insufficient sample size.

You have nothing. Carry on.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Additionally I want to point out that from a predictive standpoint having detailed historical ratings on a player falls clearly and fully into the problem of an insufficient sample size.

I'm guessing that you aren't a scientist

First, if players age differently, then, yes, a quote sample size unquote of one would be sufficient. No different than if a player's defense was declining but not their offense and you decided they could start out in right field and move to DH later.

Second, if players age more uniformly, then having data for a number of players, which having detailed scouting data for an entire OOTP universe would allow, then it should be possible to find overall trends.

You have nothing. Carry on.

Perhaps. But it is enough to return your volleys without breaking a sweat as most of them don't make it over the net, Brad

[CBeisbol]

Another reason, so thank you Brad for getting me to think more about this. Even someone arguing in bad faith can help clarify one's thoughts on a subject.

I recently had a poor fielding third baseman that I played at first base for a season. After the season I noticed on the scouting report that their defense rating increased from 3 to 5. Oh, good, I thought, maybe they will be good enough to move back to third.

Alas, it appears the defense rating changed not because their actual skill changed, but because their position changed. Though, of course I can't know if any of the underlying skills improved because, absurdly, that's not tracked in the game.

Anyway, it appears that in instances like this, the scouting report is misleading. The player shows an improvement in defense although it appears there was no actual improvement.


This player was on my team, so it was easy to recognize what had happened. But, imagine a different scenario

This time the player was not on my team. So, I wasn't familiar with them and was instead relying in my scout - since that's their job - to tell me about the player. Both their current abilities and in changes in those abilities over time. This player moved from first base to third base, thus *showing* a decrease in defense rating in the faulty scouting report.

If I were thinking of acquiring this player, all I would see was a decrease in defense. Thst decrease may, but more likely, may not be real. But, one might say, you could look at the defense tab and figure out what happened. Sure. But why that extra step instead of including the relevant information on the scouting report?

And if the player did either improve or decline defensively while also changing positions? Those changes are hidden by the way the scouting reports are currently set up. If their underlying ratings did increase while they moved to a more difficult position? Range, arm and error avoidance could all go from, say 40 to 45, but overall defense could still show a decline. Absolutely misleading.

Some players' scouting reports show fluctuations in defense rating. But, is this because the players' defensive skill was changing? Or simply because their position was changing? And, again, for players who change positions, any real changes in defensive ability are hidden due to the position changes.

For players who change positions, the defense rating in the scouting report compares apples to oranges (first basemen to third basemen). It should compare apples to apples (range rating), oranges to oranges (arm rating) and pears to pears (error avoidance).


A scouting report that shows accurate and useful information, is better than one that does not. In my opinion.




Did this player's defense get worse? Get better? Stay the same?

Why should defense be constrained to a single number in the scouting report when it is composed of 3 different factors?

Why not do the same with offense? Why isn't offense constrained to a single number? You can see here this player had a drop in contact rate, but an increase in eye. Is that relevant information? If so, why is it more relevant than a player who had an increase in avoid error and a decrease in range? If not, why is it included in the scouting report?


Edit: perhaps that information (on changes to arm, range and avoid error) are available in the Player Development report. Though I can only recall seeing changes to overall defense recorded. Even if they are, they should still be recorded in the scouting report and the graphs.

1) it's more how actual scouting works
2) it's more useful
3) it's more analogous to how offense is scouted in OOTP

The same goes for baserunning.

And if there are users, like BraDK, who are incapable of handling the increased information, then give them the option to turn it off.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

Another reason, so thank you Brad for getting me to think more about this. Even someone arguing in bad faith can help clarify one's thoughts on a subject.

Ah yes, when the facts are against you, argue your opponent is incompetent or immoral. (Even though that doesn't change the facts you may distract the audience.)

[Rain King]

Definitely seems like there is room for improvement here. Not really sure what Brad's vendetta against that is about.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by Rain King

Definitely seems like there is room for improvement here. Not really sure what Brad's vendetta against that is about.

It's against me, personally.

[Brad K]

Oh come on CB. Just because Dennis says everyone hates you doesn't make it true.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by Rain King

Definitely seems like there is room for improvement here. Not really sure what Brad's vendetta against that is about.

Nobody can explain what its use would be. I urge the developers not to spend any time on a feature when the proponents can't explain how it would be useful.

This isn't even the original complaint. You might want to read the thread CB linked in his first post. Or maybe you wouldn't!!!

[Wrathchild]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Nobody can explain what its use would be.

Now, I'm a native English speaker, and it seems pretty clear to me by the posts here what the use would be. It gives you a more detailed view of how the player's development/decline actually progressed. What's so unknown about that?

[Rain King]

Exactly. I'm not sure what is difficult in understanding about how tracking the changes in ratings would be used.

- I got a notification that my 3rd Baseman's arm rating has gone down, maybe it is time to move him to 1B/DH...or give my young guy more playing time there.

- My SS's Stealing rating improved...I'm going to adjust his Stealing Bases slider.

- My LF's Contact rating went way down vs. LHP...maybe I need to set up a platoon.

I imagine it could be quite the time-saver instead of needing to constantly be looking over reports with that information depending on the way that you play.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

It's against me, personally.

Odd that BradK disappeared from the discussion