Historical League Questions

plinko83 · 11-23-2020, 02:58 PM

Good afternoon.

I am considering starting a historical league, probably sometime in the 50s. My question is this...does the game going forward into future years know how good everyone became, and therefore treats them like that?

For instance -- mike piazza was taken in the 73rd round or whatever it was, but when i get to the year he's in the draft, is he listed as a 1st overall HOFer type player, or a 73rd round talent?

Does that make sense? Same for draft busts...is todd van poppel listed eventually as first round talent or is he listed as a 2 or 3 player on the 2-8 scale?

I hope this makes sense.

Thanks,
Plinko

Charlie Hough · 11-23-2020, 04:09 PM

This question goes in the Historical Simulations sub-forum, but I'll answer it here.

When a historical player is imported into the game for the rookie draft, his current ratings will be based on the recalculation period you've chosen, which is 1 year, 3 years, or 5 years. But his potential ratings and overall potential will be based on his future statistics in the real life historical stats database. They will also depend on whether you've set up the game to use his peak seasons or all his remaining seasons as the basis for potential. In other words, Mike Piazza's potential could be based on the best years of his career or an overall valuation based on the totality of his remaining years.

The other AI general managers will only know the current ratings and these potential ratings for historical players. The AI cannot "see" the exact arc of a player's future career in the historical stats. This means the human GM has a massive advantage over the AI because you know exactly how good the player will become if you're recalculating ratings based on future historical seasons, and you'll know exactly how many peak seasons the player had, how good he was for how long, etc.

The AI will only know how good the player can potentially become and won't have knowledge of those other crucial details. For years, I've been asking for an option to give the AI a way to "see" stats in the historical database the way the human GM can, but that has yet to be added to the game.

In the meantime, you may have to impose house rules on yourself to balance out your advantage over the AI. Or you can always choose not to use recalc and instead let the game's development engine handle all future player rating changes and development. This allows your historical league to take on a life of its own, and many players will end up having careers similar to real life, you will see plenty of variation. And you could see things such as Mike Piazza ending up being the bust and Todd Van Poppel becoming the next Nolan Ryan.

Brad K · 11-23-2020, 05:22 PM

If you enable development without recalc players who were mediocre until 30 and good thereafter will not develop into good late career players. Also players who made drastic changes in the position they play will not have that happen. For example, neither Robin Yount nor Al Oliver will develop in to competent CFs.

Charlie Hough · 11-23-2020, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad K

If you enable development without recalc players who were mediocre until 30 and good thereafter will not develop into good late career players. Also players who made drastic changes in the position they play will not have that happen. For example, neither Robin Yount nor Al Oliver will develop in to competent CFs.

This isn't necessarily true. In theory, until their possible development runs out due to age, a player could still become a good late-career player. I'm sure it's rare, but theoretically the development engine could have a player reach his potential or even develop higher potential and higher ratings late in his career.

If you import historical players and assign fielding based on their career fielding ratings, I believe Yount and Oliver would be competent center fielders. Even if you don't use those settings, as long as you're using the coaching system and spring training, you can train players to play new positions, especially if you have them work on it in spring training. It's not as effective during the regular season. But theoretically if you want historical players to learn new positions, you could train them to do so. But you're right that they won't do it on their own.

Brad K · 11-23-2020, 07:00 PM

This doesn't match with what I've observed.

ALB123 · 11-24-2020, 11:37 AM

Uh-oh...now I'm a little worried.

I am playing Historical. I began as the GM & Manager of the 1981 New York Yankees. It is currently 1994 and I am no longer the Manager - only the GM.

My goal was to start off 1981 with the exact rosters of the real 1981, however, as soon as the first pitch is thrown I wanted to be in my own alternate reality. I've been doing that, but now I'm worried I might not be doing it the best way...

I am using the OOTP Development Engine. Batter Development, Batter Aging, Pitcher Development, and Pitcher Aging are all at the default 1.000... I currently have Talent Change Randomness set to 135.

Then, I have...

I've been having a great time with my baseball universe, but is there a better way to operate an alternate universe by using different settings than I am using - shown above?

Brad K., I am not sure I understood what you wrote about Robin Yount and Al Oliver. Are you saying that they won't develop into competent CFs if I move them to CF after they turn 30 years old? Or are you saying that Robin Yount wouldn't develop into a competent CF ever?

Brad K · 11-24-2020, 12:19 PM

My experience is that with recalc off they don't get OF ratings. Their skill set later in their careers isn't the same as early. Without OF skills experience doesn't help. Development is based on their original skill set.

It seems that having fielding ratings based on three year period would over ride that but that's not what I have observed. Concerning the position difficulty scale, in the game it doesn't mean a C or SS can play anywhere as the scale implies.

Concerning settings mine are the same as yours except I have recalc on, 3 year, no weighting; ratings based on neutralized stats; and potential on remaining years.

EDIT: Whoops. I have TCR set to 100.

David Watts · 11-24-2020, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALB123

Uh-oh...now I'm a little worried.

I am playing Historical. I began as the GM & Manager of the 1981 New York Yankees. It is currently 1994 and I am no longer the Manager - only the GM.

My goal was to start off 1981 with the exact rosters of the real 1981, however, as soon as the first pitch is thrown I wanted to be in my own alternate reality. I've been doing that, but now I'm worried I might not be doing it the best way...

I am using the OOTP Development Engine. Batter Development, Batter Aging, Pitcher Development, and Pitcher Aging are all at the default 1.000... I currently have Talent Change Randomness set to 135.

Then, I have...

I've been having a great time with my baseball universe, but is there a better way to operate an alternate universe by using different settings than I am using - shown above?

Brad K., I am not sure I understood what you wrote about Robin Yount and Al Oliver. Are you saying that they won't develop into competent CFs if I move them to CF after they turn 30 years old? Or are you saying that Robin Yount wouldn't develop into a competent CF ever?

If you aren't using recalc, you may want to change "base fielding ratings on" from 3 year to entire career. Same goes for "base pitcher stamina on." I would go with entire career. That way guys like Pedro and Schilling won't end up relief pitchers for their entire careers.

Brad K · 11-24-2020, 12:33 PM

I saw a post indicating that when entire career is used long career players with two positions end up mediocre at both. The example was Ernie Banks who didn't have a decent rating at either SS or 1B.

Charlie Hough · 11-24-2020, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad K

I saw a post indicating that when entire career is used long career players with two positions end up mediocre at both. The example was Ernie Banks who didn't have a decent rating at either SS or 1B.

It's going to be based on how good they were over their entire career. If they were great at a position for only part of their career, then they're probably not going to be rated at that level in OOTP unless they have potential based on peak seasons and they eventually develop into those high ratings.

I think the OP's settings are fine if he wants a historical league that is based on the initial few years of a player's career, plus potentials based on peak seasons, but otherwise ignores real life history.

He's using a 3-year period for fielding and pitching and peak seasons for potentials, but he's not using recalc. OOTP is only using each player's first 3 years of historical stats when creating his initial ratings, including batting, pitching, fielding and stamina. After that, the development engine takes over, and the only thing from the player's real-world performance that will influence things is his potential, which is initially based on his peak seasons but can actually be altered by the development engine.

If that's the intention, that's fine. If he's looking for something different, then he can describe what he's looking for and the rest of us can provide suggestions.

ALB123 · 11-24-2020, 02:04 PM

Thanks for the help guys...I really, really appreciate it.

When I start a new saved game (historical) I want all the initial players in my sim rated as they were at that point in real life. From that point onward, I want an entirely new outcome. The way I'm currently playing, Dave Winfield, for instance (my fav player ever) was a bum by 1986. I take that as a sign the OOTP development engine was doing its job, especially since I turned up Talent Change Randomness a bit...and bad luck which gave him awful personality traits. Greedy, Selfish...I loved it!

When new players enter my universe through a yearly first-year player draft, they're always reflective of how they were in real life MLB. Like, Mike Piazza was ranked the #2 Prospect when he appeared in the first-year player draft. That's good too.

I expect some ballplayers who were All-Stars in real life to suck and have short careers in my saved game. Likewise, I expect some ballplayers who were average, at best in real life, to possibly turn into 4 & 5 Star players if they get really, really lucky. I think the TCR setting comes into play here, right?

Is that clear, guys? I do appreciate warning me about the Stamina and that makes a lot of sense based on things I've seen throughout my 14 years running this saved game. Should I make any other changes?

If you looked through my almanacs you'd see mostly the same names you would in a real world publication occupying the leaderboards...however, in my world, for instance, Wade Boggs didn't live up to his real-life counterpart...and the Red Sox had him playing SS for several years because they held onto Carney Lansford at 3B who was doing very well. This is what I want to happen. I don't want every player to perform as they did in real life. This isn't meant to be a replay league.

Charlie Hough · 11-24-2020, 11:37 PM

Thanks for the summary. Yes, it seems like your settings should be ideal for what you want to do, and I don't see any need for additional changes. It sounds like you're getting the results you want and you're having fun, which is all that matters. Feel free to post about your league in the Historical Simulations forum and let us know more about all the interesting variations you end up seeing. I love the story about Carney Lansford and Wade Boggs.

11-23-2020, 02:58 PM	#1
plinko83 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 57	Historical League Questions Good afternoon. I am considering starting a historical league, probably sometime in the 50s. My question is this...does the game going forward into future years know how good everyone became, and therefore treats them like that? For instance -- mike piazza was taken in the 73rd round or whatever it was, but when i get to the year he's in the draft, is he listed as a 1st overall HOFer type player, or a 73rd round talent? Does that make sense? Same for draft busts...is todd van poppel listed eventually as first round talent or is he listed as a 2 or 3 player on the 2-8 scale? I hope this makes sense. Thanks, Plinko

11-24-2020, 11:37 AM	#6
ALB123 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 638	Uh-oh...now I'm a little worried. I am playing Historical. I began as the GM & Manager of the 1981 New York Yankees. It is currently 1994 and I am no longer the Manager - only the GM. My goal was to start off 1981 with the exact rosters of the real 1981, however, as soon as the first pitch is thrown I wanted to be in my own alternate reality. I've been doing that, but now I'm worried I might not be doing it the best way... I am using the OOTP Development Engine. Batter Development, Batter Aging, Pitcher Development, and Pitcher Aging are all at the default 1.000... I currently have Talent Change Randomness set to 135. Then, I have... I've been having a great time with my baseball universe, but is there a better way to operate an alternate universe by using different settings than I am using - shown above? Brad K., I am not sure I understood what you wrote about Robin Yount and Al Oliver. Are you saying that they won't develop into competent CFs if I move them to CF after they turn 30 years old? Or are you saying that Robin Yount wouldn't develop into a competent CF ever? __________________ "I'm on the side that's always lost against the side of Heaven. I'm on the side of snake-eyes tossed against the side of seven" - Leonard Cohen "The Captain"

11-24-2020, 12:19 PM	#7
Brad K Banned Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,693 Infractions: 0/2 (4)	My experience is that with recalc off they don't get OF ratings. Their skill set later in their careers isn't the same as early. Without OF skills experience doesn't help. Development is based on their original skill set. It seems that having fielding ratings based on three year period would over ride that but that's not what I have observed. Concerning the position difficulty scale, in the game it doesn't mean a C or SS can play anywhere as the scale implies. Concerning settings mine are the same as yours except I have recalc on, 3 year, no weighting; ratings based on neutralized stats; and potential on remaining years. EDIT: Whoops. I have TCR set to 100. Last edited by Brad K; 11-24-2020 at 12:32 PM.

11-24-2020, 02:04 PM	#11
ALB123 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 638	Thanks for the help guys...I really, really appreciate it. When I start a new saved game (historical) I want all the initial players in my sim rated as they were at that point in real life. From that point onward, I want an entirely new outcome. The way I'm currently playing, Dave Winfield, for instance (my fav player ever) was a bum by 1986. I take that as a sign the OOTP development engine was doing its job, especially since I turned up Talent Change Randomness a bit...and bad luck which gave him awful personality traits. Greedy, Selfish...I loved it! When new players enter my universe through a yearly first-year player draft, they're always reflective of how they were in real life MLB. Like, Mike Piazza was ranked the #2 Prospect when he appeared in the first-year player draft. That's good too. I expect some ballplayers who were All-Stars in real life to suck and have short careers in my saved game. Likewise, I expect some ballplayers who were average, at best in real life, to possibly turn into 4 & 5 Star players if they get really, really lucky. I think the TCR setting comes into play here, right? Is that clear, guys? I do appreciate warning me about the Stamina and that makes a lot of sense based on things I've seen throughout my 14 years running this saved game. Should I make any other changes? If you looked through my almanacs you'd see mostly the same names you would in a real world publication occupying the leaderboards...however, in my world, for instance, Wade Boggs didn't live up to his real-life counterpart...and the Red Sox had him playing SS for several years because they held onto Carney Lansford at 3B who was doing very well. This is what I want to happen. I don't want every player to perform as they did in real life. This isn't meant to be a replay league. __________________ "I'm on the side that's always lost against the side of Heaven. I'm on the side of snake-eyes tossed against the side of seven" - Leonard Cohen "The Captain" Last edited by ALB123; 11-24-2020 at 02:06 PM.

11-23-2020, 04:09 PM	#2
Charlie Hough Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,644	This question goes in the Historical Simulations sub-forum, but I'll answer it here. When a historical player is imported into the game for the rookie draft, his current ratings will be based on the recalculation period you've chosen, which is 1 year, 3 years, or 5 years. But his potential ratings and overall potential will be based on his future statistics in the real life historical stats database. They will also depend on whether you've set up the game to use his peak seasons or all his remaining seasons as the basis for potential. In other words, Mike Piazza's potential could be based on the best years of his career or an overall valuation based on the totality of his remaining years. The other AI general managers will only know the current ratings and these potential ratings for historical players. The AI cannot "see" the exact arc of a player's future career in the historical stats. This means the human GM has a massive advantage over the AI because you know exactly how good the player will become if you're recalculating ratings based on future historical seasons, and you'll know exactly how many peak seasons the player had, how good he was for how long, etc. The AI will only know how good the player can potentially become and won't have knowledge of those other crucial details. For years, I've been asking for an option to give the AI a way to "see" stats in the historical database the way the human GM can, but that has yet to be added to the game. In the meantime, you may have to impose house rules on yourself to balance out your advantage over the AI. Or you can always choose not to use recalc and instead let the game's development engine handle all future player rating changes and development. This allows your historical league to take on a life of its own, and many players will end up having careers similar to real life, you will see plenty of variation. And you could see things such as Mike Piazza ending up being the bust and Todd Van Poppel becoming the next Nolan Ryan.

11-23-2020, 05:22 PM	#3
Brad K Banned Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,693 Infractions: 0/2 (4)	If you enable development without recalc players who were mediocre until 30 and good thereafter will not develop into good late career players. Also players who made drastic changes in the position they play will not have that happen. For example, neither Robin Yount nor Al Oliver will develop in to competent CFs.

11-23-2020, 07:00 PM	#5
Brad K Banned Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,693 Infractions: 0/2 (4)	This doesn't match with what I've observed.

11-24-2020, 12:33 PM	#9
Brad K Banned Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,693 Infractions: 0/2 (4)	I saw a post indicating that when entire career is used long career players with two positions end up mediocre at both. The example was Ernie Banks who didn't have a decent rating at either SS or 1B.

11-24-2020, 11:37 PM	#12
Charlie Hough Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,644	Thanks for the summary. Yes, it seems like your settings should be ideal for what you want to do, and I don't see any need for additional changes. It sounds like you're getting the results you want and you're having fun, which is all that matters. Feel free to post about your league in the Historical Simulations forum and let us know more about all the interesting variations you end up seeing. I love the story about Carney Lansford and Wade Boggs.