Pitchouts and CS

ghulten · 04-17-2003, 12:11 PM

Why can't my A/A baserunners recognize a pitchout and not attempt to steal? I swear, I've had 50 CS this year between my two stud baserunners because they can't stop running when the see a pitchout.

Gastric ReFlux · 04-17-2003, 12:19 PM

Umm, a good pitchout is hard for a runner to pick up on before he is too committed to running.

akw4572 · 04-17-2003, 12:19 PM

why can't you guess when there is a pitchout, and not steal? That is about my only "wish" with the game, that it had pitch by pitch for the situational. But i understand that it would take a whole new engine.......

ghulten · 04-17-2003, 12:34 PM

I try to guess when there's going to be a pitchout. But I steal a lot (two guys with 60+ steals, and 200 for the team in early September), and, if I guess wrong, then I never get the chance to steal again.

I think 75% of my guys CS have come on pitchouts where they went anyway.

And these are A/A guys, who are supposed to have some talent at recognizing when they can get a good jump. I would think that they would also be able to recognize that they can't get a good jump on a pitchout.

Occasionally, there'll be a pitchout where they stay put, saying "the can't get a good jump." This should happen way, way more often.

ctorg · 04-17-2003, 12:37 PM

The whole point of a pitchout is to make it unpredictable. Sure, you can get a read on it sometimes, but the fielding team is trying hard to make it look like it's any other pitch.

ghulten · 04-17-2003, 12:39 PM

But why can my guys recognize they shouldn't run on a fastball, but can't recognize a pitchout? They're supposed to have a "A" rating for recognizing a good jump.

Gastric ReFlux · 04-17-2003, 12:41 PM

Definitely sounds like Markus should put in some code so the AI will tell you when they will pitch out if you try to steal.

Gastric ReFlux · 04-17-2003, 12:43 PM

I think that's what they do in the major leagues.

They yell over to the other dugout, "We'll be pitching out!"

akw4572 · 04-17-2003, 12:55 PM

no i think the guys saying......his A runner should recognize it at least every once in a while.

ghulten · 04-17-2003, 12:55 PM

Hilarious.

I think I have a valid question.

If my great basestealer can tell the difference between a curveball he can run on and fastball he can't, why can't he tell the difference between a pitch and a pitchout?

Are pitchouts so much harder to detect than the differences in regular pitches?

In MLB, how many CS are there after pitchouts? Is there a site where I can look that up somewhere?

Gastric ReFlux · 04-17-2003, 01:03 PM

First off, I don't think the runners recognize what kind of pitch is being thrown. The PbP says that the runner couldn't get a good jump. A jump is gotten off the stretch move, not off watching the pitch.

I believe that's your fundamental misperception.

fhomess · 04-17-2003, 01:41 PM

If a baserunner is going to attempt a steal, he needs to start running at the first sign that the pitcher is going to throw home. This is picked up by the runner long before the pitch is released. There's no opportunity to determine what pitch is going to be thrown or if it's a pitchout. Only the count can give an indication of what the pitcher MIGHT do. Personally, I think there's more of a problem with baserunners not running, regardless of whether or not they got a good jump. When I tell them to run, I want them to go.

ctorg · 04-17-2003, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fhomess
If a baserunner is going to attempt a steal, he needs to start running at the first sign that the pitcher is going to throw home. This is picked up by the runner long before the pitch is released. There's no opportunity to determine what pitch is going to be thrown or if it's a pitchout. Only the count can give an indication of what the pitcher MIGHT do. Personally, I think there's more of a problem with baserunners not running, regardless of whether or not they got a good jump. When I tell them to run, I want them to go.

I agree 100%, absolutely and wholeheartedly. I like how Strat-O-Matic handles it. Their system is almost the same, but if a guy doesn't get a good lead, he can still try to steal. He just has like a 20% better chance of being thrown out.

gpm22 · 04-17-2003, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ghulten
Hilarious.

I think I have a valid question.

If my great basestealer can tell the difference between a curveball he can run on and fastball he can't, why can't he tell the difference between a pitch and a pitchout?

Are pitchouts so much harder to detect than the differences in regular pitches?

In MLB, how many CS are there after pitchouts? Is there a site where I can look that up somewhere?

Baserunners cannot tell the difference between pitches. Its a matter of getting a good jump or not. A good baserunner will know if their window has passed, so they will stay. Lesser baserunners will not always know and leave late, getting thrown out.

trapper · 04-17-2003, 03:24 PM

This is crazy...

Basestealers do not wait to see what type of pitch is thrown before they start running. As soon as the runners knows the pitcher is going home, he should be running. You don't stop if you see a pitchout because you'd be out anyways. A pitch by pitch interface would sure be nice, but it's the manager's job to anticipate pitchouts, not the baserunner's.

ctorg · 04-17-2003, 03:29 PM

I'm sure that one day this game will become pitch-by-pitch. That would be a whole new engine, of course, and I wouldn't expect it for a few more years, but I really look forward to that day. So many strategies, especially baserunning ones, depend on the pitch count. For instance, you might want to put the runner in motion on a 3-2 count, even if he's not fast. One day...

Bravo 1/5 USHA · 04-18-2003, 04:25 PM

I wish I knew how to do a pitchout myself....the comp always does it to me when I am on base....but I never get to do it to them....BOOOO!

JML · 04-18-2003, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bravo 1/5 USHA
I wish I knew how to do a pitchout myself....the comp always does it to me when I am on base....but I never get to do it to them....BOOOO!

Have you tried pressing "6"? The option is there...

Bravo 1/5 USHA · 04-18-2003, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JML
Have you tried pressing "6"? The option is there...

DOH!

"Bravo 1/5 USHA, to embarrassed to whip up anything louder, whispers quietly to JML....thanks!"

BobbyL · 04-18-2003, 11:25 PM

My two cents:

I think the jump is fine. I just think that a runners should not be thrown out so much on a pitchout. Just quessing, but I think a pitchout should only give a the catcher a 20% more chance to throw out a runner, not the seeming 100% it does in the game now. I have yet to see a stealer reach safely on a pitchout. But I don' steal that many bases anyway.

Just my two cents.

04-17-2003, 12:11 PM	#1
ghulten Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 135	Pitchouts and CS Why can't my A/A baserunners recognize a pitchout and not attempt to steal? I swear, I've had 50 CS this year between my two stud baserunners because they can't stop running when the see a pitchout.

04-17-2003, 12:34 PM	#4
ghulten Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 135	I try to guess when there's going to be a pitchout. But I steal a lot (two guys with 60+ steals, and 200 for the team in early September), and, if I guess wrong, then I never get the chance to steal again. I think 75% of my guys CS have come on pitchouts where they went anyway. And these are A/A guys, who are supposed to have some talent at recognizing when they can get a good jump. I would think that they would also be able to recognize that they can't get a good jump on a pitchout. Occasionally, there'll be a pitchout where they stay put, saying "the can't get a good jump." This should happen way, way more often. Last edited by ghulten; 04-17-2003 at 12:37 PM.

04-17-2003, 12:37 PM	#5
ctorg Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 9,848	The whole point of a pitchout is to make it unpredictable. Sure, you can get a read on it sometimes, but the fielding team is trying hard to make it look like it's any other pitch. __________________ My music "When the trees blow back and forth, that's what makes the wind." - Steven Wright Fjord emena pancreas thorax fornicate marmalade morpheme proteolysis smaxa cabana offal srue vitriol grope hallelujah lentils

04-17-2003, 01:41 PM	#12
fhomess Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 3,651	If a baserunner is going to attempt a steal, he needs to start running at the first sign that the pitcher is going to throw home. This is picked up by the runner long before the pitch is released. There's no opportunity to determine what pitch is going to be thrown or if it's a pitchout. Only the count can give an indication of what the pitcher MIGHT do. Personally, I think there's more of a problem with baserunners not running, regardless of whether or not they got a good jump. When I tell them to run, I want them to go. __________________ StatsLab- PHP/MySQL based utilities for Online Leagues Baseball Cards - Full list of known templates and documentation on card development.

04-17-2003, 03:29 PM	#16
ctorg Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 9,848	I'm sure that one day this game will become pitch-by-pitch. That would be a whole new engine, of course, and I wouldn't expect it for a few more years, but I really look forward to that day. So many strategies, especially baserunning ones, depend on the pitch count. For instance, you might want to put the runner in motion on a 3-2 count, even if he's not fast. One day... __________________ My music "When the trees blow back and forth, that's what makes the wind." - Steven Wright Fjord emena pancreas thorax fornicate marmalade morpheme proteolysis smaxa cabana offal srue vitriol grope hallelujah lentils

04-17-2003, 12:19 PM	#2
Gastric ReFlux Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Member #3409 Posts: 8,350	Umm, a good pitchout is hard for a runner to pick up on before he is too committed to running.

04-17-2003, 12:19 PM	#3
akw4572 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 2,601	why can't you guess when there is a pitchout, and not steal? That is about my only "wish" with the game, that it had pitch by pitch for the situational. But i understand that it would take a whole new engine.......

04-17-2003, 12:39 PM	#6
ghulten Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 135	But why can my guys recognize they shouldn't run on a fastball, but can't recognize a pitchout? They're supposed to have a "A" rating for recognizing a good jump.

04-17-2003, 12:41 PM	#7
Gastric ReFlux Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Member #3409 Posts: 8,350	Definitely sounds like Markus should put in some code so the AI will tell you when they will pitch out if you try to steal.

04-17-2003, 12:43 PM	#8
Gastric ReFlux Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Member #3409 Posts: 8,350	I think that's what they do in the major leagues. They yell over to the other dugout, "We'll be pitching out!"

04-17-2003, 12:55 PM	#9
akw4572 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 2,601	no i think the guys saying......his A runner should recognize it at least every once in a while.

04-17-2003, 01:03 PM	#11
Gastric ReFlux Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Member #3409 Posts: 8,350	First off, I don't think the runners recognize what kind of pitch is being thrown. The PbP says that the runner couldn't get a good jump. A jump is gotten off the stretch move, not off watching the pitch. I believe that's your fundamental misperception.

04-17-2003, 03:24 PM	#15
trapper Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 114	This is crazy... Basestealers do not wait to see what type of pitch is thrown before they start running. As soon as the runners knows the pitcher is going home, he should be running. You don't stop if you see a pitchout because you'd be out anyways. A pitch by pitch interface would sure be nice, but it's the manager's job to anticipate pitchouts, not the baserunner's.

04-18-2003, 04:25 PM	#17
Bravo 1/5 USHA Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: NYC, NY Posts: 108	I wish I knew how to do a pitchout myself....the comp always does it to me when I am on base....but I never get to do it to them....BOOOO! __________________ How 'bout dem Yanks!

04-18-2003, 11:25 PM	#20
BobbyL Bat Boy Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bangkok, Thailand Posts: 19	My two cents: I think the jump is fine. I just think that a runners should not be thrown out so much on a pitchout. Just quessing, but I think a pitchout should only give a the catcher a 20% more chance to throw out a runner, not the seeming 100% it does in the game now. I have yet to see a stealer reach safely on a pitchout. But I don' steal that many bases anyway. Just my two cents. __________________ Bobby Lorimor bob@lorimorstudios.com -------------------------------- Leagues: DogDaysBaseball, Murray Creek Mudcats FBBL, Cleveland Indians