Perfect League...pay to play :-(

[Hobbes63]

Just curious what other's thoughts are on this. I came into the game a month or so ago, methodically built my team getting value/bargain players at positions of need, advanced every season to the next league...now I'm in Perfect, and just getting shelled. If you look at the lineups there, MANY teams have diamond starters in their BULLPEN. Then when you see the price of these players...it would take hundreds of dollars just to be competitive. I will never spend that kind of money on this...and it also completely takes the fun of the game away. It's a GM game...a GM's job is to find those bargain/value players that fit your team. When you are competing with people who just buy all the best players, regardless of cost...what's the point? If a salary cap were applied, they'd have probably 20 times or more the salary I do.

So, I'll probably get relegated back to Diamond, but that just reinforces the question: What's the point?

There are fixes to this, but I suspect the dev team wouldn't like them. This is how they generate $$$, from those players who ARE willing to shell out hundreds of dollars. It just makes it rather pointless for everyone else.

Playing historical teams seems like it might address this, but it seems like, after only a month, and a successful month at that...I'm not seeing why to bother continue playing.

Thoughts?

[Zorro]

Go to a different mode and play the game. This mode is not for you.

[Thundercrack]

You might want to take a look at the 47 other threads on this topic

[SayHey1]

Originally Posted by Hobbes63

Just curious what other's thoughts are on this. I came into the game a month or so ago, methodically built my team getting value/bargain players at positions of need, advanced every season to the next league...now I'm in Perfect, and just getting shelled. If you look at the lineups there, MANY teams have diamond starters in their BULLPEN. Then when you see the price of these players...it would take hundreds of dollars just to be competitive. I will never spend that kind of money on this...and it also completely takes the fun of the game away. It's a GM game...a GM's job is to find those bargain/value players that fit your team. When you are competing with people who just buy all the best players, regardless of cost...what's the point? If a salary cap were applied, they'd have probably 20 times or more the salary I do.

So, I'll probably get relegated back to Diamond, but that just reinforces the question: What's the point?

There are fixes to this, but I suspect the dev team wouldn't like them. This is how they generate $$$, from those players who ARE willing to shell out hundreds of dollars. It just makes it rather pointless for everyone else.

Playing historical teams seems like it might address this, but it seems like, after only a month, and a successful month at that...I'm not seeing why to bother continue playing.

Thoughts?

I agree that the "non money spending" player eventually will hit a wall that can't be pushed past. At that point, there are essentially 2 options:


1) Let your team run on auto pilot for weeks at a time. I've observed that my team will earn between 5k-10k per season depending on how well they did. Figure 4 seasons to earn 30k points (4 weeks) for Perfect Player upgrades that can be afforded through the auction market.


2) Buy packs with the above mentioned points and pray.


Either way, you're going to be waiting months to improve your team while watching it get pummeled by those who have no issue spending money.


So, yes...I get the incentive to quit in the face of that. But then again, if you aren't spending money on PP, you were never OOTP's target market anyways.

[Hobbes63]

Originally Posted by Zorro

Go to a different mode and play the game. This mode is not for you.

Ya, that's the conclusion I came to. Shame from a player perspective, but I get it from a vendor perspective.

Which is a tricky line to toe from the dev side. How do you generate lots of player buys, while still keeping competitive balance? It seems here they didn't even try...but then maybe there really isn't a reason to. I'm sure they generate tons of cash with this model, looking at the Perfect rosters.

[Hobbes63]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack

You might want to take a look at the 47 other threads on this topic

Haha, ya, I'm sure I'm not the first. Wasn't even sure what to search for, though. So, I figured not really any harm in throwing it out there.

[BoofBonser26]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack

You might want to take a look at the 47 other threads on this topic

To be fair, all "47 other threads" (including this one, I suspect) get merged into "Competitive Balance Discussion."

But OP is right. I'll be switching to a theme team because as a FTP player I'll likely just hang out in Gold/Diamond forever with my cost-effective, boring cookie cutter team.

[freedavebrown]

Originally Posted by Hobbes63

Ya, that's the conclusion I came to. Shame from a player perspective, but I get it from a vendor perspective.

Which is a tricky line to toe from the dev side. How do you generate lots of player buys, while still keeping competitive balance? It seems here they didn't even try...but then maybe there really isn't a reason to. I'm sure they generate tons of cash with this model, looking at the Perfect rosters.

I think it could partially solved by adjusting the pyramid system for teams a bit so that eventually you end up with a tier that is just populated by the super suuuuuuper stacked teams that the non heavily spending players will never reach.

The problem I am faced with now is that my team (which I spent some money on but not a ton) is good enough that I probably wont be relegated from Perfect (or will get bumped again next week if I go down). But not even remotely close to good enough to win a perfect league.

[Hobbes63]

Originally Posted by BoofBonser26

To be fair, all "47 other threads" (including this one, I suspect) get merged into "Competitive Balance Discussion."

But OP is right. I'll be switching to a theme team because as a FTP player I'll likely just hang out in Gold/Diamond forever with my cost-effective, boring cookie cutter team.

Me too. Which is fine, I think. The historical teams seem better geared to actually being a GM (ie, having a cap limit, developing players, etc.).

So, I think the first response by Zorro, while a bit tongue in cheek, is the right one. Play a different mode.

[Weaseltail]

The short answer is yes, it's a pay-to-win model. But the devs have created enough randomness in outcomes to give budget teams a chance, and have structured leagues in a way that eventually you get paired up with teams of a roughly similar talent level.

I have a Perfect level team that's around .580 right now with two perfects (the obligatory Trout and Betts combo), and the rest affordable diamonds, golds, and even a silver. I spent $45 on it (all in the AH) and got a lucky pull from a Challenge pack (my eternal thanks to whoever bought my Johnny Vander Mere card, I hope he served you well).

I'll never be able to hang with the stacked teams over time, but in any given season I've got a shot. I obsess over RP splits and platoons, try to be creative in how I handle ballpark design and global strategies, and try to exploit inefficiencies where possible. It's an uphill climb, but that's the fun IMO. If I can beat a team that's significantly better than mine on paper, it's a thrill.

I feel your pain. Whenever I play a team that has a bullpen loaded with SP I'll never be able to afford, it irks me. And I realize no matter what I do, I'll never truly be able to compete against those teams. But I've sort of accepted that now, and I still have a lot of fun trying to get the most out of the team I can afford.

[AirmenSmith]

In before the thread is locked.

I still believe that this is a good example of someone that spent money, not on PP but on OOTP, to be expecting something different then what he paid for.

We will never have separate leagues as all the Free 2 play players are stuck with the Pay 2 win players. People will say the gratification for taking down the Pay 2 win would be great but all it will do is cause them to spend more money.

For the original poster I hope you didn't just buy the game for Perfect Team. Play the full OOTP game and just do PT on the side. OOTP 19 is an amazing game that you should really enjoy. If PT is what you wanted to play, don't hold out up for it to be fair to us Free 2 play players. Unless we get custom leagues it never will. Best advice to enjoy PT as a free 2 play player, make a team of your favorite players. Make that a goal. It will at least help you feel as if you didn't waste money.

[Zorro]

Originally Posted by Hobbes63

So, I think the first response by Zorro, while a bit tongue in cheek, is the right one. Play a different mode.

I did not mean it in a bad way, Just a honest answer to your question.

[max venerabel]

Originally Posted by freedavebrown

I think it could partially solved by adjusting the pyramid system for teams a bit so that eventually you end up with a tier that is just populated by the super suuuuuuper stacked teams that the non heavily spending players will never reach.

The problem I am faced with now is that my team (which I spent some money on but not a ton) is good enough that I probably wont be relegated from Perfect (or will get bumped again next week if I go down). But not even remotely close to good enough to win a perfect league.

Yup. The issue I think is having a hard wall at the top where the loaded rosters are going to pool. Perfect will just get tiugh t and tougher every season as the $$ continues to collect there. Seems to me the easy solution would be endlessly growing levels of upper tiers, so that the big fish can continue to advance. Otherwise, each level will continue to get harder and harder to compete in over time as we get Perfect level backwash.

. Doing this shouldn’t harm the incentive to spend to improve your team, including for the whales, who can continue the arms race in their land of Ruths and Wagners

[Hobbes63]

Originally Posted by Weaseltail

The short answer is yes, it's a pay-to-win model. But the devs have created enough randomness in outcomes to give budget teams a chance, and have structured leagues in a way that eventually you get paired up with teams of a roughly similar talent level.

Yes, up until Perfect, I think. Baseball is a game of statistics, which does introduce randomness, but when other teams are just that much better than you, much of the randomness goes away. I started off ok, a bit above .500...but had a 1-15 streak that I will never recover from. It would take too much randomness to win any of that back.

I have a Perfect level team that's around .580 right now with two perfects (the obligatory Trout and Betts combo), and the rest affordable diamonds, golds, and even a silver. I spent $45 on it and got a lucky pull (my eternal thanks to whoever bought my Johnny Vander Mere card, I hope he served you well).

I'm curious...what did you spend your $45 on? (this is a question to the group, too). Buying packs, or buying PP to get players? If packs, silver or gold? They both have the same chance of diamond players, which probably answers the question, but gold might increase your chance of getting good gold players to sell...getting more packs, etc.

So, in general, how do the people build those 'whale' teams? Through packs? Or just buying players they want?

I'll never be able to hang with the stacked teams over time, but in any given season I've got a shot. I obsess over RP splits and platoons, try to be creative in how I handle ballpark design and global strategies, and try to exploit inefficiencies where possible. It's an uphill climb, but that's the fun IMO. If I can beat a team that's significantly better than mine on paper, it's a thrill.

I feel your pain. Whenever I play a team with a bullpen loaded with starters I'll never be able to afford, it irks me. And I realize no matter what I do, I'll never truly be able to compete against those teams. But I've sort of accepted that now, and I still have a lot of fun trying to get the most out of the team I can afford and celebrating the minor accomplishments.

Agree. I was good with that until that long losing streak...followed by another. I don't expect to win Perfect League, but just getting drubbed every game isn't much fun. I haven't spent much money...but then when I saw ALL the high $$$ players on almost all of the Perfect League teams....the opening thread seemed appropriate. I still wouldn't have a competitive roster, so that would be $$$ wasted. Pitching is just too stacked.

[Hobbes63]

Originally Posted by Zorro

I did not mean it in a bad way, Just a honest answer to your question.

No worries at all....that's exactly how I took it...and it WAS the right answer, I think. :-)

So, all good!

[Zorro]

Originally Posted by Weaseltail

The short answer is yes, it's a pay-to-win model. But the devs have created enough randomness in outcomes to give budget teams a chance,

I'll never be able to hang with the stacked teams over time, but in any given season I've got a shot.

I have found out that is if you make the playoffs anything can happen. I have seen teams that won 120 games get swepted by a team that won 84 games. I was 18 games back of a team in my Division who was much better then anyone in our league. I made it as a wild card team and then swept him in a five game series. The next season I won 114 games top in my Conference and never made it to the Championship. In fact the best team in the other conference did not make it either. So with some strategy you can make the playoffs with a much lesser team but walk away as Champion. I have been on both ends of that so I know it can be done.

[freedavebrown]

Originally Posted by Hobbes63

Yes, up until Perfect, I think. Baseball is a game of statistics, which does introduce randomness, but when other teams are just that much better than you, much of the randomness goes away. I started off ok, a bit above .500...but had a 1-15 streak that I will never recover from. It would take too much randomness to win any of that back.



I'm curious...what did you spend your $45 on? (this is a question to the group, too). Buying packs, or buying PP to get players? If packs, silver or gold? They both have the same chance of diamond players, which probably answers the question, but gold might increase your chance of getting good gold players to sell...getting more packs, etc.

So, in general, how do the people build those 'whale' teams? Through packs? Or just buying players they want?



Agree. I was good with that until that long losing streak...followed by another. I don't expect to win Perfect League, but just getting drubbed every game isn't much fun. I haven't spent much money...but then when I saw ALL the high $$$ players on almost all of the Perfect League teams....the opening thread seemed appropriate. I still wouldn't have a competitive roster, so that would be $$$ wasted. Pitching is just too stacked.

They must be building the teams through the AH. The amount of packs you´d have to open to get 30 diamonds is pretty staggering.

I think my personal solution to this problem is just going to be to try to build a team I like that has cool players and plays the way I want rather than a team that I think is objectively the best.

[Hobbes63]

Originally Posted by AirmenSmith

In before the thread is locked.

I still believe that this is a good example of someone that spent money, not on PP but on OOTP, to be expecting something different then what he paid for.

We will never have separate leagues as all the Free 2 play players are stuck with the Pay 2 win players. People will say the gratification for taking down the Pay 2 win would be great but all it will do is cause them to spend more money.

For the original poster I hope you didn't just buy the game for Perfect Team. Play the full OOTP game and just do PT on the side. OOTP 19 is an amazing game that you should really enjoy. If PT is what you wanted to play, don't hold out up for it to be fair to us Free 2 play players. Unless we get custom leagues it never will. Best advice to enjoy PT as a free 2 play player, make a team of your favorite players. Make that a goal. It will at least help you feel as if you didn't waste money.

Yes, agree on all points. There already is a mode that probably does better suit what I'm looking for...and in all honesty, actually seems to have more depth in those things (player development, scouting, etc). So, this wasn't intended as a rant, or as a plea for devs to 'fix it'...just curious what everyone's thoughts were.

[Hobbes63]

Originally Posted by Zorro

I have found out that is if you make the playoffs anything can happen. I have seen teams that won 120 games get swepted by a team that won 84 games. I was 18 games back of a team in my Division who was much better then anyone in our league. I made it as a wild card team and then swept him in a five game series. The next season I won 114 games top in my Conference and never made it to the Championship. In fact the best team in the other conference did not make it either. So with some strategy you can make the playoffs with a much lesser team but walk away as Champion. I have been on both ends of that so I know it can be done.

Yes, me as well. My best team got swept (all 1 run losses, 2 in extra innings)...whereas the team I won the championship with barely made it into the playoffs.

[DonkeyKongSr]

Originally Posted by SayHey1

I agree that the "non money spending" player eventually will hit a wall that can't be pushed past. At that point, there are essentially 2 options:


1) Let your team run on auto pilot for weeks at a time. I've observed that my team will earn between 5k-10k per season depending on how well they did. Figure 4 seasons to earn 30k points (4 weeks) for Perfect Player upgrades that can be afforded through the auction market.


2) Buy packs with the above mentioned points and pray.


Either way, you're going to be waiting months to improve your team while watching it get pummeled by those who have no issue spending money.


So, yes...I get the incentive to quit in the face of that. But then again, if you aren't spending money on PP, you were never OOTP's target market anyways.

You missed #3: Auction House flipping.

If you can get 10-20K saved, you can make quite a bit off of flipping the right cards. More than the Autopilot estimate you made. I was recently able to profit about 5K off 2 cards in the 15K range. Bought A, flipped for a profit, bought B flipped for a profit. Using time and patience, I think you can chain flip your way from a 10K player to a 50K player. The 10% vig makes it a little bit tougher.