The Case For Mattingly

MrWorkrate · 03-22-2003, 12:37 AM

It's not really an article totally about Don Mattingly, it's more about the Hall Of Fame, but I just posted it at my website, www.buhner.com

You can directly access the article by clicking below:

The Case For Mattingly

But, since I have a lot of other articles up (ok, a few, but most are sports related), I'd love to hear some feedback. I just started writing for the site again, so any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Feel free to respond to the article here.

drprestwood · 03-22-2003, 01:43 AM

Mattingly doesn't deserve it.

Your article says Puckett doesn't deserve it. That's not a case for Mattingly deserving it. Justify Puckett to prove your point.

Also, the personal attacks on Puckett aren't warranted, since you describe A) allegations and B) things not corroborated by evidence (i.e. hated visiting children in hospitals).

Dwolfson20 · 03-22-2003, 04:02 AM

In response to B, that came directly from a quote by his mistress. Just because he visited lots of children doesn't mean he didn't also hate it.

holyroller · 03-22-2003, 04:04 AM

There is a case for Mattingly? News to me.

MrWorkrate · 03-22-2003, 09:15 AM

Granted, "The Case For Mattingly" may not have been the best title for the article. It's more of an article to point out how two players who had similar statistical careers were looked upon so differently when it came time to vote for the Hall of Fame. I stated in the article that I didn't necessarily think that Mattingly deserved to be in the Hall of Fame, but since Puckett was voted in on the first ballot, then why not?

In responce to the reference of "personal attacks", I stated in the article that the allegations were just what they were, "allegations". The reference to hating visiting children's hospitals was from the March 17th Sports Illustrated:

Laura Nygren, the other woman, says that Puckett often spoke resentfully about having to visit children in order to bulwark his image. "He always said how much he hated going to the hospitals," Nygren says. "He became more [vocal] about how much he hated it after he retired, but he always said he hated it."

The only reason the allegations were even brought up was to provide a point of reference in regards to Puckett's election. Puckett's Hall of Fame election was strongly weighted by his popularity and image. I just pointed out Puckett's tarnished image now as a fault of voting in a player based on his image, no matter how positive it may seem.

I appreciate your (and everyone else's) feedback, and I look forward to hearing more. Thanks for reading!

LivnLegend · 03-22-2003, 11:54 AM

Interesting article.

It does not change my opinion that the list of overlooked first basemen for the Hall of Fame begins with Gil Hodges. Everyone else can line up behind him.

Stealth · 03-22-2003, 12:16 PM

Didn't Puckett retire when he was 34, not 36?

dbacks · 03-22-2003, 12:20 PM

Yup.

End of Innocence · 03-22-2003, 12:43 PM

Puckett was the leader on a Championship team. He brought baseball back to Minnesota. Read this from SI... on a list of the 100 greatest things in Minnesota, Puckett was #5, the highest person on the list. There is more to Hall of Fame then pure stats.

The Professor · 03-22-2003, 12:59 PM

Quote:

It does not change my opinion that the list of overlooked first basemen for the Hall of Fame begins with Gil Hodges. Everyone else can line up behind him.

I agree!

drprestwood · 03-22-2003, 01:48 PM

Yes, I trust a ballplayer's disgruntled mistress.

I have no problem if Puckett didn't like being pressured to go visit kids in the hospital. He still did it and put on a good game face and made those kids happy.

I think I once heard the argument put as "Puckett burned out. Mattingly faded away." Yep, found that phrase on sportsline.com. It also notes: Puckett was still in his prime. Puckett had the highest career average for a righty since Dimaggio. He's one of the best ever at his position. He had more hits in his first 10 years than anybody but Willie Keeler.

I definitely think Puckett has sub-par numbers for a hall-of-famer. So does Koufax.

Dwolfson20 · 03-22-2003, 02:08 PM

You seem to be awfully defensive about Puckett... is it just because you're a Twins fan? Maybe you could look at it a little more objectively, as we are. I think the evidence is fairly resounding against him at this point.

Modern Relic · 03-22-2003, 02:19 PM

Quote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It does not change my opinion that the list of overlooked first basemen for the Hall of Fame begins with Gil Hodges. Everyone else can line up behind him.Originally posted by The Professor
I agree!

I agree too, but Hodges belongs behind Ron Santo in the line, position aside.

MrWorkrate · 03-22-2003, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by drprestwood
Yes, I trust a ballplayer's disgruntled mistress.

I have no problem if Puckett didn't like being pressured to go visit kids in the hospital. He still did it and put on a good game face and made those kids happy.

The fact that the ballplayer even had a disgruntled mistress is what I'm pointing out. Any article that you read about Puckett when he was elected pointed first to his humanitarian efforts. Branch Rickey Community Services Award (1993), Roberto Clemente Man Of The Year (1996), World Sports Humanitarian Hall of Fame (2000); these are all awards brought up and I'm sure were kept in mind when his ballot came up.

The fact that you imply that he was being "pressured" to visit kids in a hospital doesn't go along with the awards he received. Players who make "necessary" visits to children don't get humanitarian awards. These are given to players who make it a point to go above and beyond the call of duty to give back to their community. If Puckett didn't want to do these things, he didn't have to; yet he did, whether it be because he wanted to, or because his wife made him, he still did them, and took all the credit for them.

The point that you're missing is that Puckett was a borderline Hall of Famer on statistics. The thing that made him a Hall of Famer (first ballot, no less) was his image. He was seen as this everyman who made it big, kept a smile on his face, and was more than happy to give back. He was a role model for baseball when baseball was in need of role models, and he was elected because of it, and no one argued the point until they found out it wasn't true.

I, personally, find it amusing that Puckett sits in the Hall of Fame, just because of why he was elected, and how badly it's backfiring right now. I'm curious to how well he'd do if he were up for election now.

JAttractive · 03-22-2003, 08:05 PM

Even if the stats are similar you have to consider their positions as well. I would NEVER consider a 1b who hits the same as any other position in the game as equally valuable to someone with the same stats.

I also don't think we need to consider the motives behind his actions. He did some great things off the field and thats all that should matter to us. Let the people in his life, including himself, worry about his motives. You can't erase the deeds.

If someone were to suddenly create peace in the Middle East and end the blood shed I would say that was deserving of recognition, humanitarian awards. Even if he did it for purely selfish reasons (ie. the fame would let him score with the chicks) I would still think he deserves the award. It would taint my view of him BUT you can't ignore the deed.

JAttractive · 03-22-2003, 08:09 PM

I mean 6 Gold Gloves in CF. That alone makes him SO much more valuable than Mattingly or any 1b, even a defensive superstar of a 1b, who would have similar stats.

03-22-2003, 12:37 AM	#1
MrWorkrate All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 1,262	The Case For Mattingly It's not really an article totally about Don Mattingly, it's more about the Hall Of Fame, but I just posted it at my website, www.buhner.com You can directly access the article by clicking below: The Case For Mattingly But, since I have a lot of other articles up (ok, a few, but most are sports related), I'd love to hear some feedback. I just started writing for the site again, so any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Feel free to respond to the article here. __________________ I used to come here a lot. Now, not so much.

03-22-2003, 04:02 AM	#3
Dwolfson20 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Not St. Louis Posts: 2,872	In response to B, that came directly from a quote by his mistress. Just because he visited lots of children doesn't mean he didn't also hate it. __________________

03-22-2003, 04:04 AM	#4
holyroller Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: OTBL Forums Posts: 3,532	There is a case for Mattingly? News to me. __________________ Back to work, but not drawing a paycheck. TonyJ et. al.'s alias “I confused it with the chicken’s neck,” Mocanu, who was admitted to the emergency hospital in Galati, was quoted as saying. “I cut it ... and the dog rushed and ate it.”

03-22-2003, 11:54 AM	#6
LivnLegend Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: 100% pure adrenaline! Posts: 5,624	Interesting article. It does not change my opinion that the list of overlooked first basemen for the Hall of Fame begins with Gil Hodges. Everyone else can line up behind him. __________________ Excess ain't rebellion. You're drinking what they're selling.

03-22-2003, 02:08 PM	#12
Dwolfson20 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Not St. Louis Posts: 2,872	You seem to be awfully defensive about Puckett... is it just because you're a Twins fan? Maybe you could look at it a little more objectively, as we are. I think the evidence is fairly resounding against him at this point. __________________

03-22-2003, 01:43 AM	#2
drprestwood All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 1,501	Mattingly doesn't deserve it. Your article says Puckett doesn't deserve it. That's not a case for Mattingly deserving it. Justify Puckett to prove your point. Also, the personal attacks on Puckett aren't warranted, since you describe A) allegations and B) things not corroborated by evidence (i.e. hated visiting children in hospitals).

03-22-2003, 09:15 AM	#5
MrWorkrate All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 1,262	Granted, "The Case For Mattingly" may not have been the best title for the article. It's more of an article to point out how two players who had similar statistical careers were looked upon so differently when it came time to vote for the Hall of Fame. I stated in the article that I didn't necessarily think that Mattingly deserved to be in the Hall of Fame, but since Puckett was voted in on the first ballot, then why not? In responce to the reference of "personal attacks", I stated in the article that the allegations were just what they were, "allegations". The reference to hating visiting children's hospitals was from the March 17th Sports Illustrated: Laura Nygren, the other woman, says that Puckett often spoke resentfully about having to visit children in order to bulwark his image. "He always said how much he hated going to the hospitals," Nygren says. "He became more [vocal] about how much he hated it after he retired, but he always said he hated it." The only reason the allegations were even brought up was to provide a point of reference in regards to Puckett's election. Puckett's Hall of Fame election was strongly weighted by his popularity and image. I just pointed out Puckett's tarnished image now as a fault of voting in a player based on his image, no matter how positive it may seem. I appreciate your (and everyone else's) feedback, and I look forward to hearing more. Thanks for reading! __________________ I used to come here a lot. Now, not so much.

03-22-2003, 12:16 PM	#7
Stealth Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 144	Didn't Puckett retire when he was 34, not 36?

03-22-2003, 12:20 PM	#8
dbacks Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 2,735	Yup.

03-22-2003, 12:43 PM	#9
End of Innocence Bat Boy Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 14	Puckett was the leader on a Championship team. He brought baseball back to Minnesota. Read this from SI... on a list of the 100 greatest things in Minnesota, Puckett was #5, the highest person on the list. There is more to Hall of Fame then pure stats.

03-22-2003, 01:48 PM	#11
drprestwood All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 1,501	Yes, I trust a ballplayer's disgruntled mistress. I have no problem if Puckett didn't like being pressured to go visit kids in the hospital. He still did it and put on a good game face and made those kids happy. I think I once heard the argument put as "Puckett burned out. Mattingly faded away." Yep, found that phrase on sportsline.com. It also notes: Puckett was still in his prime. Puckett had the highest career average for a righty since Dimaggio. He's one of the best ever at his position. He had more hits in his first 10 years than anybody but Willie Keeler. I definitely think Puckett has sub-par numbers for a hall-of-famer. So does Koufax.

03-22-2003, 08:05 PM	#15
JAttractive All Star Starter Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Catharines, Ontario Posts: 1,135	Even if the stats are similar you have to consider their positions as well. I would NEVER consider a 1b who hits the same as any other position in the game as equally valuable to someone with the same stats. I also don't think we need to consider the motives behind his actions. He did some great things off the field and thats all that should matter to us. Let the people in his life, including himself, worry about his motives. You can't erase the deeds. If someone were to suddenly create peace in the Middle East and end the blood shed I would say that was deserving of recognition, humanitarian awards. Even if he did it for purely selfish reasons (ie. the fame would let him score with the chicks) I would still think he deserves the award. It would taint my view of him BUT you can't ignore the deed.

03-22-2003, 08:09 PM	#16
JAttractive All Star Starter Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Catharines, Ontario Posts: 1,135	I mean 6 Gold Gloves in CF. That alone makes him SO much more valuable than Mattingly or any 1b, even a defensive superstar of a 1b, who would have similar stats.