MVP Award Tie Breaker

scott1964 · 07-15-2018, 11:51 PM

Need a tie breaker for the MVP Award

Who deserves it more?

Billy Hamilton

Ed Delahanty

Jtward9 · 07-16-2018, 12:55 AM

I can't help you, but if I was voting I would have voted for Delahanty. I could have been your tie breaker!

Whoofe · 07-16-2018, 10:12 AM

ed

Hemi425HP · 07-16-2018, 11:48 AM

I think I'd be more wary of Delahanty when he came to the plate. For me that would push it to him.

mitchkenn · 07-16-2018, 12:10 PM

another for big ed. though it's close.

texasmame · 07-16-2018, 12:23 PM

Too close to call based on their stats, but Billy's WAR is impressive. Whichever guy was on a playoff team gets my vote.

Cobby · 07-16-2018, 07:40 PM

I vote for Hamilton.

The offensive stats are close - with a slight edge to Delahanty, but Hamilton's WAR is over 2.5 wins greater than Delahanty's even though they played the same number of games.

That tells me that Hamilton is contributing quite bit more on defense in addition to the superb offense. To me, that's decisive.

itsmb8 · 07-16-2018, 08:28 PM

I voted Ed, but that was before I saw the WAR numbers.. I now vote Billy.

NoOne · 07-16-2018, 09:55 PM

war is junk

i don't think i'd let Ed attempt another stolen base ever again though, lol. either a low %success rate in that particular league or they'd be better if they stole less often and upped their terrible %-success (bill -- because no adult should go by 'billy')

ThePretender · 07-16-2018, 10:03 PM

Hamilton and it's not particularly close. I assume either he's an insanely good defender or playing a much tougher defensive position.

NoOne · 07-17-2018, 01:07 PM

a .110ish iso...(not a great stat but gets the idea across) that's poopey. he's a singles machine with a bloated war and can't steal bases

all sorts of negative things i can point out about that more replaceable singles-machine. i'd go with a raker over a leadoff type anytime it's close. they get paid more on average for good reasons.

ed could be nearly as good leadoff and more rbi there too... bet he'd be involved in more RS (rbi + r) no matter what spot in the order you place them -- even leadoff which would most beneifit bill(y).

a 'runaway' is a bit hard to swallow... it's clearly close. comes down to perception of defense, which i don't see their positions listed in ss.

this is a prime example of why WAR is trash -- the difference between these two players is just plain wrong and arguably backward. it's just somethign pretty to look at. it's also not a rate... it's another 'counting' stat which is worthless to compare between 2 players because it is apples and oranges if they don't have the same PA/IP.

ops+ is a far superior stat to use in an overall manner like war is. it's unwise to rely solely on ops+ too, because the equation isn't perfect, like war's. just as overall/potential doesn't guarantee a higher value is better than a lower value... these aggregate/congolmerate/ all-in-one stats are deeply flawed for the exact same reasons no one likes overall/potential in OotP.

so, if oyu don't like overall/pot as far as what it can tell you, you also should have a healthy disdain for WAR, ops+, era+, and any other similar advanced metric. sorta useful, but don't tell you specifically much about anything.

Germaniac · 07-17-2018, 01:16 PM

Definitely Ed Delahanty

ThePretender · 07-17-2018, 01:21 PM

170 vs 182 ops+ means they're basically equally productive. So again it comes down to what position they play and how well they play it. With a War gap that big it means the first guy plays a much tougher defensive position and plays it well, or the second guy is an awful defender. Either way it's not close and Hamilton is better.

Also they have a similar pa so it's not like one guy has an advantage over the other in this area like you suggest.

Also you ignore the massive obp difference which makes up the slugging as well. I'd be willing to bet the wRC+ makes the offensive gap even smaller.

Even without war it's pretty clear he's better.

Op- I'd love to see wRC+ and the defensive values and positions for both guys.

scott1964 · 07-17-2018, 02:32 PM

Here are the second page of stats

Billy

Ed

ThePretender · 07-17-2018, 04:30 PM

Thanks for showing that. Could you let us know the position they played if you have the time?

And as I said, the OBP difference was massive enough that the wRC+ is identical. Anybody arguing that one player is better than the other missed the point, when it came to park factors, overrating the slugging edge, and underrating the OBP edge. They had identical offensive production, so when we inevitably find out Hamilton played a tougher defensive position, and that they had identical production, it'll be impossible to argue against him being the clear-cut MVP.

scott1964 · 07-17-2018, 07:58 PM

Here you go

Billy

Ed

scott1964 · 07-17-2018, 08:05 PM

Second page

Billy

Ed

ThePretender · 07-17-2018, 08:17 PM

Thanks again.

So we see a guy who is +15 UZR in RF (AKA a guy good enough to play CF) vs a -11 LF (AKA a DH).

So 2 guys with identical wRC+ and a massive difference in fielding. Nearly 2.5-3 win difference on fielding alone. So the difference in WAR is pretty legit, and anybody complaining about WAR being the issue clearly doesn't understand how WAR works. Two identical bats, one an elite fielder, one a DH pretending to play the OF...

Yeah, MVP Billy.

scott1964 · 07-20-2018, 12:36 AM

In 1895 Ed gets revenge on Billy

Le Grande Orange · 07-20-2018, 07:10 PM

I suggest Thunderdome rules to break the tie: two players enter, one player leaves!

07-15-2018, 11:51 PM	#1
scott1964 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Denver Posts: 5,624	MVP Award Tie Breaker Need a tie breaker for the MVP Award Who deserves it more? Billy Hamilton Ed Delahanty __________________ This just feels more like waiting in line at the Department of Motor Vehicles. PETA.....People Eating Tasty Animals.

07-16-2018, 11:48 AM	#4
Hemi425HP Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 202	I think I'd be more wary of Delahanty when he came to the plate. For me that would push it to him. __________________

07-16-2018, 12:10 PM	#5
mitchkenn Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Oregon, not by design Posts: 2,872	another for big ed. though it's close. __________________ "This is my opening farewell " - Jackson Browne “They make a desolation and call it peace.” ― Agha Shahid Ali "Maybe she just has to sing, for the sake of the song - And who do I think that I am to decide that she's wrong." - Townes Van Zandt "I saw a young man leaning on his wooden crutch - He called out to me, 'Don't ask for so much' And a young woman leaning in her darkened door She cried out to me, 'Why not ask for more?' " - Leonard Cohen "Hello darkness, my old Friend ...." - Paul Simon Before Mays, before DiMaggio, there was Oscar Charleston. "All the lies about Babe Ruth are true." - Waite Hoyt Avatar is the late great Townes Van Zandt. rip.

07-16-2018, 12:23 PM	#6
texasmame All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Planet Texas Posts: 1,662	Too close to call based on their stats, but Billy's WAR is impressive. Whichever guy was on a playoff team gets my vote. __________________ Managing and rebuilding the 98-loss TOKYO THUNDER.

07-17-2018, 01:16 PM	#12
Germaniac Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Frankenthal, Germany Posts: 3,088	Definitely Ed Delahanty __________________ I'm going to have to meet my Maker some day. And if He asks me why I didn't let this boy play, and I say it's because he's black, that might not be a satisfactory answer. Happy Chandler, 1947

View Poll Results: MVP?
Billy Hamilton	18	54.55%
Ed Delahanty	15	45.45%
Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

07-16-2018, 12:55 AM	#2
Jtward9 Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 45	I can't help you, but if I was voting I would have voted for Delahanty. I could have been your tie breaker!

07-16-2018, 10:12 AM	#3
Whoofe All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 590	ed

07-16-2018, 07:40 PM	#7
Cobby Minors (Triple A) Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 252	I vote for Hamilton. The offensive stats are close - with a slight edge to Delahanty, but Hamilton's WAR is over 2.5 wins greater than Delahanty's even though they played the same number of games. That tells me that Hamilton is contributing quite bit more on defense in addition to the superb offense. To me, that's decisive.

07-16-2018, 08:28 PM	#8
itsmb8 All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 1,341	I voted Ed, but that was before I saw the WAR numbers.. I now vote Billy.

07-16-2018, 09:55 PM	#9
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/1 (3)	war is junk i don't think i'd let Ed attempt another stolen base ever again though, lol. either a low %success rate in that particular league or they'd be better if they stole less often and upped their terrible %-success (bill -- because no adult should go by 'billy')

07-16-2018, 10:03 PM	#10
ThePretender All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,331	Hamilton and it's not particularly close. I assume either he's an insanely good defender or playing a much tougher defensive position.

07-17-2018, 01:07 PM	#11
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/1 (3)	a .110ish iso...(not a great stat but gets the idea across) that's poopey. he's a singles machine with a bloated war and can't steal bases all sorts of negative things i can point out about that more replaceable singles-machine. i'd go with a raker over a leadoff type anytime it's close. they get paid more on average for good reasons. ed could be nearly as good leadoff and more rbi there too... bet he'd be involved in more RS (rbi + r) no matter what spot in the order you place them -- even leadoff which would most beneifit bill(y). a 'runaway' is a bit hard to swallow... it's clearly close. comes down to perception of defense, which i don't see their positions listed in ss. this is a prime example of why WAR is trash -- the difference between these two players is just plain wrong and arguably backward. it's just somethign pretty to look at. it's also not a rate... it's another 'counting' stat which is worthless to compare between 2 players because it is apples and oranges if they don't have the same PA/IP. ops+ is a far superior stat to use in an overall manner like war is. it's unwise to rely solely on ops+ too, because the equation isn't perfect, like war's. just as overall/potential doesn't guarantee a higher value is better than a lower value... these aggregate/congolmerate/ all-in-one stats are deeply flawed for the exact same reasons no one likes overall/potential in OotP. so, if oyu don't like overall/pot as far as what it can tell you, you also should have a healthy disdain for WAR, ops+, era+, and any other similar advanced metric. sorta useful, but don't tell you specifically much about anything.

07-17-2018, 01:21 PM	#13
ThePretender All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,331	170 vs 182 ops+ means they're basically equally productive. So again it comes down to what position they play and how well they play it. With a War gap that big it means the first guy plays a much tougher defensive position and plays it well, or the second guy is an awful defender. Either way it's not close and Hamilton is better. Also they have a similar pa so it's not like one guy has an advantage over the other in this area like you suggest. Also you ignore the massive obp difference which makes up the slugging as well. I'd be willing to bet the wRC+ makes the offensive gap even smaller. Even without war it's pretty clear he's better. Op- I'd love to see wRC+ and the defensive values and positions for both guys. Last edited by ThePretender; 07-17-2018 at 01:25 PM.

07-17-2018, 02:32 PM	#14
scott1964 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Denver Posts: 5,624	Here are the second page of stats Billy Ed __________________ This just feels more like waiting in line at the Department of Motor Vehicles. PETA.....People Eating Tasty Animals.

07-17-2018, 04:30 PM	#15
ThePretender All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,331	Thanks for showing that. Could you let us know the position they played if you have the time? And as I said, the OBP difference was massive enough that the wRC+ is identical. Anybody arguing that one player is better than the other missed the point, when it came to park factors, overrating the slugging edge, and underrating the OBP edge. They had identical offensive production, so when we inevitably find out Hamilton played a tougher defensive position, and that they had identical production, it'll be impossible to argue against him being the clear-cut MVP.

07-17-2018, 07:58 PM	#16
scott1964 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Denver Posts: 5,624	Here you go Billy Ed __________________ This just feels more like waiting in line at the Department of Motor Vehicles. PETA.....People Eating Tasty Animals.

07-17-2018, 08:05 PM	#17
scott1964 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Denver Posts: 5,624	Second page Billy Ed __________________ This just feels more like waiting in line at the Department of Motor Vehicles. PETA.....People Eating Tasty Animals.

07-17-2018, 08:17 PM	#18
ThePretender All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,331	Thanks again. So we see a guy who is +15 UZR in RF (AKA a guy good enough to play CF) vs a -11 LF (AKA a DH). So 2 guys with identical wRC+ and a massive difference in fielding. Nearly 2.5-3 win difference on fielding alone. So the difference in WAR is pretty legit, and anybody complaining about WAR being the issue clearly doesn't understand how WAR works. Two identical bats, one an elite fielder, one a DH pretending to play the OF... Yeah, MVP Billy.

07-20-2018, 12:36 AM	#19
scott1964 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Denver Posts: 5,624	In 1895 Ed gets revenge on Billy __________________ This just feels more like waiting in line at the Department of Motor Vehicles. PETA.....People Eating Tasty Animals.

07-20-2018, 07:10 PM	#20
Le Grande Orange Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Up There Posts: 15,644	I suggest Thunderdome rules to break the tie: two players enter, one player leaves!