Long relievers -- what am I missing?

Qeltar · 04-23-2018, 04:42 PM

I am rebuilding the Marlins and after MUCH work I have a starting rotation that is.. bad. It was TERRIBLE when I started -- ever face the Yankees lineup with a 1-star SP? -- so this is an improvement.

However, I am still constantly dealing with the occasional bad day and a guy getting bombed early. And I don't know how to deal with it, because the game doesn't seem to ever let me make a long reliever who can actually eat some innings.

Right now I have my least-good SP in the LR role. He has a Stamina of 65, but the last time I put him in he was toast for days after only 42 pitches. Now 4 or 5 days later I put him back in, and after only 22 pitches he's already in the yellow.

Same game, the AI put in a 35 Stamina RP and he threw 50 pitches. ???

Can anyone provide any guidance on this? Thanks.

Qeltar · 04-23-2018, 08:50 PM

Just had it happen again. My full Stamina 50 "long relief" guy died after 2 innings. The other team's regular RP had no problem pitching 3.

The next day it showed this long relief guy at 81% so I figured "okay maybe he just can't go too many innings in one day." My whole staff is whacked out so I pencilled him in for a spot start.

He went from 81% to 0% after 22 pitches. What?

I really hope there's a bug in here somewhere because it really doesn't make any sense. Real teams have long relievers who can go 4 or 5 innings every few days. That's what they are for.

NickG · 04-23-2018, 09:05 PM

Can you point us to a current real-life example of a long reliever that goes 4 or 5 innings every few days?

NoOne · 04-23-2018, 09:27 PM

they only go ~40 pitches as RP and "higher" stamina won't improve that much... ie a lower stamina guy may not reach ~40, but it won't take much beyond a 20/100 or so stamina to get there... just the way fatigue wiorks for RP in ootp.

i've mad ea suggestion to up it or change it in some way, feel free to bump my thread or make a new one

(if used as an rp, it's how it works even if position is set at SP in a long relieve role on depth chart.. test this out to verify, but pretty sure an ootp-agent said as much in a forum post... plus, it might cost you the slight bump in Stuff you receive from SP->RP position change - so don't try to game the system if it doesn't increase how many they can throw - match position to role for best results, imo)

RL long reliever go ~60 pitches when needed, but that's beside the point.. it doesn't work that way in ootp... so only pitch them until thay change to ~slightly tired or w/e you normally do. they's probably need ~3days off for sure..maybe 2?

back to ootp:

81% farigue status will reduce what they can throw in an outing quite a bit...

fatigue for pitchers is about pitch count, not IP.. so if they went ~3ip it was because they had a pitch count low enough to do so... or the ai pitched them while tired and got a bit of luck etc etc...

if the 35stam rp threw 50, he was throwing tired for sure... and while doing so thew with a reduciton to his ratings as appropriately...

learn how it works relative to # of pitches thrown... e.g. decent stamina CL can go 3 straight days and not be deathly tired when they come in for that third day.. BUT not if they threw too much in either of the 2 previous outings... ~15 or less in each should allow for it with a decent RP stamina.

unles they threw ~40 in previous outing, bakc-to-back should be no problem for all but the extremely low stamina RP.

Qeltar · 04-23-2018, 09:30 PM

Nick, I may have overstated that to some extent. But any SP in a LR role should certainly be able to fairly easily go 5 innings every 5 or 6 days, just as they would in a rotation. But I cannot get any pitcher in the LR spot to do that. Why? Are they set up wrong?

NoOne, thanks. The system does seem to need tweaking. I just put in a 34 year old position player to mop up and he was able to go 2 full innings without any problem, where my long reliever couldn't go more than 3. Granted, he doesn't throw as hard...

I may just stick with a 6-man rotation to get through this part of the schedule (20 days in a row with no off-day... my bullpen is good but the starters just can't put in the innings without getting beat up.)

Mike D · 04-23-2018, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qeltar

I am rebuilding the Marlins and after MUCH work I have a starting rotation that is.. bad. It was TERRIBLE when I started -- ever face the Yankees lineup with a 1-star SP? -- so this is an improvement.

However, I am still constantly dealing with the occasional bad day and a guy getting bombed early. And I don't know how to deal with it, because the game doesn't seem to ever let me make a long reliever who can actually eat some innings.

Right now I have my least-good SP in the LR role. He has a Stamina of 65, but the last time I put him in he was toast for days after only 42 pitches. Now 4 or 5 days later I put him back in, and after only 22 pitches he's already in the yellow.

Same game, the AI put in a 35 Stamina RP and he threw 50 pitches. ???

Can anyone provide any guidance on this? Thanks.

Might sound silly but also make sure your pitcher’s position is set to RP and not SP.

Qeltar · 04-23-2018, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike D

Might sound silly but also make sure your pitcher’s position is set to RP and not SP.

I think I tried that but I'll check it again.

Whoofe · 04-23-2018, 10:03 PM

from my experience this is what I have noticed...

a pitcher set to SP will be able to throw more pitches, but lose a bit of "stuff" and will require more days in between appearances (at least 3 days rest)

same pitcher set to RP will get a bump to his "stuff" but won't be able to throw as many pitches, but will be able to throw every 1 to 3 days

5-4-3 · 04-23-2018, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whoofe

from my experience this is what I have noticed...

a pitcher set to SP will be able to throw more pitches, but lose a bit of "stuff" and will require more days in between appearances (at least 3 days rest)

same pitcher set to RP will get a bump to his "stuff" but won't be able to throw as many pitches, but will be able to throw every 1 to 3 days

This is also my experience.

Timofmars · 04-23-2018, 11:57 PM

Wait, you mean just changing the role of the pitcher has an effect, not just if he actually starts or not?

I assumed a pitcher who starts a game would get a stamina "boost" to allow him to pitch longer, even if his position setting was RP. I thought that would be the only deciding factor, while the pitcher setting that you can change on the player profile was just cosmetic and would affect just which stats are reported in the news, such as reporting saves for a closer.

Matt Arnold · 04-24-2018, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timofmars

Wait, you mean just changing the role of the pitcher has an effect, not just if he actually starts or not?

I assumed a pitcher who starts a game would get a stamina "boost" to allow him to pitch longer, even if his position setting was RP. I thought that would be the only deciding factor, while the pitcher setting that you can change on the player profile was just cosmetic and would affect just which stats are reported in the news, such as reporting saves for a closer.

It's more like this. We track a fatigue and pitch count for both starters and relievers, and report on their current role. So you may see a guy show as 0% as a starter and 80% as a reliever. But when you bring him in, his pitch count limit in-game will be based on whether he's brought in as a starter or reliever.

We'll look to adjust this for a future patch - I do feel like we're a little too strict at having the true long reliever right now, but it's always a balancing act between allowable pitches and AI strategy for when to remove guys or pitch them tired, and to make sure we aren't too generous with reliever fatigue.

Qeltar · 04-24-2018, 12:35 AM

Thanks for the reply.

One thing that also confused me was I had one guy whose actual current ratings changed dynamically based on whether I set him to RP or SP. It felt like it would affect his effectiveness, but I am not sure.

Qeltar · 04-24-2018, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

We'll look to adjust this for a future patch - I do feel like we're a little too strict at having the true long reliever right now, but it's always a balancing act between allowable pitches and AI strategy for when to remove guys or pitch them tired, and to make sure we aren't too generous with reliever fatigue.

Understood, but the current system is problematic.

The best strategy for me as a manager right now is to use position players in blowout games. In fact, the guy I have been using so far hasn't given up any runs despite 0 pitching ability. Trying to manage a LR is much harder and yields worse results...

Rain King · 04-24-2018, 11:05 AM

I really think the game needs an added element here where essentially instead of the stamina/recovery being based on the role they would be based on a "Stretched Out" type rating which would slowly adjust to their role and/or usage.

NoOne · 04-24-2018, 11:35 AM

a logistic growth curve...

ie 0-10 not much growth.. lag phase portion which can be choosen upto any stamina value etc... if not "10" (total guess, change all #'s as needed)

maybe 10-20 or 30 you get to the faster growth to ~30-40 pitch count a closer needs / or how it allows 2-3days in a row of work possible (as is how it works roughly now, i believe) but then an an acceleration after a certain point to a limit of ~50-60pitches...

precludes the low stamina guys from doing it... and more tuned to a future SP or just an RP with inordinate amount of stamina.

where it gets steep is the ~stamina rating for aLR you want to be able to start throwing more pitches before tired. all 100% controllable withthe right curve/equation.

https://image.slidesharecdn.com/popu...?cb=1375892093

except independent variable is obviously is the stamina rating and dependent variable is # of pitches before reaching "slightly tired" or any other specific point that makes sense from a broader perspective than mine.

timmermac · 04-24-2018, 11:35 AM

I have a different idea. Can stamina be an absolute rating regardless of role? I have a pitcher with a stamina of 109 that I use as a long reliever, but I can't get him through more than maybe 4 or 5 innings and about 60 pitches, when guys in the rotation with similar stamina ratings can throw 130+ pitches.

Rain King · 04-24-2018, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmermac

I have a different idea. Can stamina be an absolute rating regardless of role? I have a pitcher with a stamina of 109 that I use as a long reliever, but I can't get him through more than maybe 4 or 5 innings and about 60 pitches, when guys in the rotation with similar stamina ratings can throw 130+ pitches.

There needs to be an adjustment when a pitcher pitches out of the bullpen vs. the rotation. The game does this pretty well currently for the guys who are pitching in true relief roles. What doesn't get accounted for right now is the in-between, guys who are long men or guys who are transitioning between the roles.

NoOne · 04-24-2018, 12:52 PM

yeah, fatigue recovery is different ... sp and rp is like a SS and a CF .. completely different, but similar in that it's still catch and throw etc (and chase for a fielder).

they could probably devise a way.. but since it's based on 'use' it's not a problem. i.e. you can't game the system by assigning role/position and use differently with the same effect. (glad tehy cleared it up, becuase a post above conflicts with that)

it's techinically a different player in each role... they throw harder etc different regimanes on offdays... so the stuff goes up and that's going to affect how they tire during the game... 2 completely different animals..

plus, a lr can't go 100pitches or they need 4 days off like a starter... which i guess could be a choice to make? rationally speaking but a rare thing either way.

highandoutside · 04-24-2018, 01:07 PM

Just a note: it is very rare for a reliever to pitch 4 or 5 innings in a game. Out of 2,430 games played last season, a reliever pitched 5 or more innings only 20 times. Only 82 times did a reliever go 4 or more innings.

Rain King · 04-24-2018, 01:20 PM

Yea, 4 or 5 inning relievers aren't really a thing unless we are talking about an extra inning game or if you wanted to do a piggy-back situation (where those 4 or 5 innings would essentially be considered a start).

However, there should be a bullpen spot for a guy who can be stretched to 3 innings on a fairly regular basis.

Bigger bullpens have done away with the long reliever in the modern game for the most part, but it should still be possible.

04-23-2018, 04:42 PM	#1
Qeltar Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 382	Long relievers -- what am I missing? I am rebuilding the Marlins and after MUCH work I have a starting rotation that is.. bad. It was TERRIBLE when I started -- ever face the Yankees lineup with a 1-star SP? -- so this is an improvement. However, I am still constantly dealing with the occasional bad day and a guy getting bombed early. And I don't know how to deal with it, because the game doesn't seem to ever let me make a long reliever who can actually eat some innings. Right now I have my least-good SP in the LR role. He has a Stamina of 65, but the last time I put him in he was toast for days after only 42 pitches. Now 4 or 5 days later I put him back in, and after only 22 pitches he's already in the yellow. Same game, the AI put in a 35 Stamina RP and he threw 50 pitches. ??? Can anyone provide any guidance on this? Thanks. Last edited by Qeltar; 04-23-2018 at 04:55 PM.

04-23-2018, 08:50 PM	#2
Qeltar Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 382	Just had it happen again. My full Stamina 50 "long relief" guy died after 2 innings. The other team's regular RP had no problem pitching 3. The next day it showed this long relief guy at 81% so I figured "okay maybe he just can't go too many innings in one day." My whole staff is whacked out so I pencilled him in for a spot start. He went from 81% to 0% after 22 pitches. What? I really hope there's a bug in here somewhere because it really doesn't make any sense. Real teams have long relievers who can go 4 or 5 innings every few days. That's what they are for. Last edited by Qeltar; 04-23-2018 at 08:51 PM.

04-23-2018, 09:27 PM	#4
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/1 (3)	they only go ~40 pitches as RP and "higher" stamina won't improve that much... ie a lower stamina guy may not reach ~40, but it won't take much beyond a 20/100 or so stamina to get there... just the way fatigue wiorks for RP in ootp. i've mad ea suggestion to up it or change it in some way, feel free to bump my thread or make a new one (if used as an rp, it's how it works even if position is set at SP in a long relieve role on depth chart.. test this out to verify, but pretty sure an ootp-agent said as much in a forum post... plus, it might cost you the slight bump in Stuff you receive from SP->RP position change - so don't try to game the system if it doesn't increase how many they can throw - match position to role for best results, imo) RL long reliever go ~60 pitches when needed, but that's beside the point.. it doesn't work that way in ootp... so only pitch them until thay change to ~slightly tired or w/e you normally do. they's probably need ~3days off for sure..maybe 2? back to ootp: 81% farigue status will reduce what they can throw in an outing quite a bit... fatigue for pitchers is about pitch count, not IP.. so if they went ~3ip it was because they had a pitch count low enough to do so... or the ai pitched them while tired and got a bit of luck etc etc... if the 35stam rp threw 50, he was throwing tired for sure... and while doing so thew with a reduciton to his ratings as appropriately... learn how it works relative to # of pitches thrown... e.g. decent stamina CL can go 3 straight days and not be deathly tired when they come in for that third day.. BUT not if they threw too much in either of the 2 previous outings... ~15 or less in each should allow for it with a decent RP stamina. unles they threw ~40 in previous outing, bakc-to-back should be no problem for all but the extremely low stamina RP. Last edited by NoOne; 04-23-2018 at 09:31 PM.

04-23-2018, 09:30 PM	#5
Qeltar Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 382	Nick, I may have overstated that to some extent. But any SP in a LR role should certainly be able to fairly easily go 5 innings every 5 or 6 days, just as they would in a rotation. But I cannot get any pitcher in the LR spot to do that. Why? Are they set up wrong? NoOne, thanks. The system does seem to need tweaking. I just put in a 34 year old position player to mop up and he was able to go 2 full innings without any problem, where my long reliever couldn't go more than 3. Granted, he doesn't throw as hard... I may just stick with a 6-man rotation to get through this part of the schedule (20 days in a row with no off-day... my bullpen is good but the starters just can't put in the innings without getting beat up.) Last edited by Qeltar; 04-23-2018 at 09:34 PM.

04-24-2018, 11:35 AM	#15
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/1 (3)	a logistic growth curve... ie 0-10 not much growth.. lag phase portion which can be choosen upto any stamina value etc... if not "10" (total guess, change all #'s as needed) maybe 10-20 or 30 you get to the faster growth to ~30-40 pitch count a closer needs / or how it allows 2-3days in a row of work possible (as is how it works roughly now, i believe) but then an an acceleration after a certain point to a limit of ~50-60pitches... precludes the low stamina guys from doing it... and more tuned to a future SP or just an RP with inordinate amount of stamina. where it gets steep is the ~stamina rating for aLR you want to be able to start throwing more pitches before tired. all 100% controllable withthe right curve/equation. https://image.slidesharecdn.com/popu...?cb=1375892093 except independent variable is obviously is the stamina rating and dependent variable is # of pitches before reaching "slightly tired" or any other specific point that makes sense from a broader perspective than mine. Last edited by NoOne; 04-24-2018 at 11:39 AM.

04-23-2018, 09:05 PM	#3
NickG Minors (Double A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 138	Can you point us to a current real-life example of a long reliever that goes 4 or 5 innings every few days?

04-23-2018, 10:03 PM	#8
Whoofe All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 590	from my experience this is what I have noticed... a pitcher set to SP will be able to throw more pitches, but lose a bit of "stuff" and will require more days in between appearances (at least 3 days rest) same pitcher set to RP will get a bump to his "stuff" but won't be able to throw as many pitches, but will be able to throw every 1 to 3 days

04-23-2018, 11:57 PM	#10
Timofmars Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 251	Wait, you mean just changing the role of the pitcher has an effect, not just if he actually starts or not? I assumed a pitcher who starts a game would get a stamina "boost" to allow him to pitch longer, even if his position setting was RP. I thought that would be the only deciding factor, while the pitcher setting that you can change on the player profile was just cosmetic and would affect just which stats are reported in the news, such as reporting saves for a closer.

04-24-2018, 12:35 AM	#12
Qeltar Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 382	Thanks for the reply. One thing that also confused me was I had one guy whose actual current ratings changed dynamically based on whether I set him to RP or SP. It felt like it would affect his effectiveness, but I am not sure.

04-24-2018, 11:05 AM	#14
Rain King Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 3,323	I really think the game needs an added element here where essentially instead of the stamina/recovery being based on the role they would be based on a "Stretched Out" type rating which would slowly adjust to their role and/or usage.

04-24-2018, 11:35 AM	#16
timmermac Major Leagues Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 449	I have a different idea. Can stamina be an absolute rating regardless of role? I have a pitcher with a stamina of 109 that I use as a long reliever, but I can't get him through more than maybe 4 or 5 innings and about 60 pitches, when guys in the rotation with similar stamina ratings can throw 130+ pitches. __________________ Running with the 1950 Braves. Crush the baseball. Drive it before you. And hear the lamentation of the opponent's women. I am king of the diamond! Let there be a grand clubhouse feast! Bring me the finest meats and cheeses in all the land!

04-24-2018, 12:52 PM	#18
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/1 (3)	yeah, fatigue recovery is different ... sp and rp is like a SS and a CF .. completely different, but similar in that it's still catch and throw etc (and chase for a fielder). they could probably devise a way.. but since it's based on 'use' it's not a problem. i.e. you can't game the system by assigning role/position and use differently with the same effect. (glad tehy cleared it up, becuase a post above conflicts with that) it's techinically a different player in each role... they throw harder etc different regimanes on offdays... so the stuff goes up and that's going to affect how they tire during the game... 2 completely different animals.. plus, a lr can't go 100pitches or they need 4 days off like a starter... which i guess could be a choice to make? rationally speaking but a rare thing either way. Last edited by NoOne; 04-24-2018 at 12:55 PM.

04-24-2018, 01:07 PM	#19
highandoutside All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 697	Just a note: it is very rare for a reliever to pitch 4 or 5 innings in a game. Out of 2,430 games played last season, a reliever pitched 5 or more innings only 20 times. Only 82 times did a reliever go 4 or more innings.

04-24-2018, 01:20 PM	#20
Rain King Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 3,323	Yea, 4 or 5 inning relievers aren't really a thing unless we are talking about an extra inning game or if you wanted to do a piggy-back situation (where those 4 or 5 innings would essentially be considered a start). However, there should be a bullpen spot for a guy who can be stretched to 3 innings on a fairly regular basis. Bigger bullpens have done away with the long reliever in the modern game for the most part, but it should still be possible. Last edited by Rain King; 04-24-2018 at 01:21 PM.