New to game and baseball - help with setting up pitching staff

Wibbster · 04-09-2018, 03:09 AM

Hey all,

So I'm completely new to OOTP, and almost new to baseball in general. I have a bunch of questions related to setting up the pitching staff that I'd really appreciate some help with.....

What's the difference between a Stopper and a Closer?
Apart from general pitching ability, what factors should I consider for deciding my starting rotation? I get that my 'ace' should be first, but is it then just a case of ordering by how good they are?
Which ratings are important for the different pitching roles? What makes a good Starter vs Reliever vs Closer?
What do I need to consider when setting up my relievers?

I realise there's a lot of questions here, but I've been struggling to find the answers to these. There's a fair bit of information around on setting up batting lineups, but nowhere near as much about pitching.

Thanks in advance,

Wibbster

DB930 · 04-09-2018, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wibbster

Hey all,

So I'm completely new to OOTP, and almost new to baseball in general. I have a bunch of questions related to setting up the pitching staff that I'd really appreciate some help with.....

What's the difference between a Stopper and a Closer?
Apart from general pitching ability, what factors should I consider for deciding my starting rotation? I get that my 'ace' should be first, but is it then just a case of ordering by how good they are?
Which ratings are important for the different pitching roles? What makes a good Starter vs Reliever vs Closer?
What do I need to consider when setting up my relievers?

I realise there's a lot of questions here, but I've been struggling to find the answers to these. There's a fair bit of information around on setting up batting lineups, but nowhere near as much about pitching.

1 - There are always exceptions, but the general rule of thumb is that the closer will come in to get the final 3 outs (of a close game; 3-run lead or less), whereas a stopper will come in earlier in a "tight" spot (for example, 7th inning, tying and go-ahead runs in scoring position, only 1 out). It's a little confusing, because "stopper" can also be used to refer to a team's ace starting pitcher--the guy who can be counted on to stop a losing streak. But for OOTP purposes, it's the first one.

2 - Yes, just slot 'em in best to worst.

3 - A good starter should have 3 or more (quality) pitches, and at least decent stamina. Relievers can get away with just 2 pitches... or, if they're Mariano Rivera, just 1.

Closers are usually guys with big strikeout numbers (high "stuff" rating). Middle- and setup-relievers can either be guys who can rack up strikeouts, or groundball pitchers who can induce double plays. If possible try to avoid relievers who give up a lot of HRs, because it's a lot harder to recover from a 3-run HR in the 8th than it is in the 2nd.

4 - Start with the closer, and build backwards from there. That is, after you've found your closer, try to get a couple of good setup men, then a couple of decent middle-men, etc. Try to have at least a couple of middle/setup relievers who can get lefties out. And middle- and long-relief can sometimes be a good way to work a young starting prospect into the mix for a little while before putting him in the rotation.

joefromchicago · 04-09-2018, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DB930

1 - There are always exceptions, but the general rule of thumb is that the closer will come in to get the final 3 outs (of a close game; 3-run lead or less), whereas a stopper will come in earlier in a "tight" spot (for example, 7th inning, tying and go-ahead runs in scoring position, only 1 out). It's a little confusing, because "stopper" can also be used to refer to a team's ace starting pitcher--the guy who can be counted on to stop a losing streak. But for OOTP purposes, it's the first one.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that OOTP considers stoppers and closers to be mutually exclusive categories - stoppers are used up to around 1985 and closers thereafter. But I might be wrong about that - I'm running a 1916 replay right now and I see closers in the game (which is definitely not how relievers were used back then), so I'm not entirely sure how the game uses relievers any more

NoOne · 04-09-2018, 03:30 PM

yeah, it's now available as an option outside of historical play. (stopper)

it's a similar but slightly different role from closer.. if i gave an answer it would simply be copy/pasted from a google search, lol...

probably typically used more than 1 inning at a time is the biggest difference? not quite as specific of a role.

i am familiar with closers and typically use them 8th+ or later instead of 9thonly.

i'm sure a stopper in a modern bullpen settings (extreme use of even 1 tick down on Stats and AI settings page).will be very similar in use to a closer... i would venture to say that other dynamics from historic play would make it diverge more.

trial and error in ootp no matter what people say.. how does it work for you? compare the two and use the role you prefer.

2) sometimes a lefty isn't quite in order of best to worst, but yeah.. i like accumulating career stats, so i often will set it up based on whom i will keep longer.. but that's irrational behaviour and results in a couple less wins in some years.. but they get more wins and GS

3) what "he" said. i don't care how an rp gets them out.. as long as he doesn't let up runs i like them. max and >max stuff wil be the elite Setup and Closers for sure... preferably your top MR should be similar too on a team that has WS aspirations.

rp can dip a bit lower in control -- mainly because i think it doesn't degrade as much the first ~20 pitches or whatever (made up #). that's the only reason i can come up with.. but a sub 50/100 control can still rack up awesome RP stats worthy of HoF. way less likely for an SP.

so dynamics are a bit different for each. just look at top RP and SP each year.. try to eliminate the one-year wonders and find a correlation. see how far any one rating can dip and still have amazing results.

what allows for that to happen? is it consistent?

4) without getting into too much opinion, i let teh quality of my rotation dictate a lot of the choices i make in my bullpen. are they going to be in heavy use or light use or somewhere in between.

that's a function of stamina and quality of those SP. if they all get 200ip or more, you can be very aggressive in your use of your bullpen, because you should feel fairly confidnet they will get regular rest.

my best RP is the closer, but some don't like that... they prefer to use the best guy in the 'worst' situations.. or higher leverage situations... unless you play the games out.. this is very difficult to ensure through a depth chart. i tweak my coaches - i use 1-2 ticks twoard non-traditional use of closer and 8th+ or later to attempt to do the same thing without worry too much about it. i want saves more than concern for leverage, lol.. (irrational).

i want my top ~4 guys (70-80ip/year or more, if possible) to get all the important innings. that leaves 100-200ip for the rest depending on strength of the rotation.

i set up my depth chart for that to be the case... the ai won't run out an overly tired "use more" guy when a fully rested "use less" guy is there... etc.. i stratify it as best i can. if i want the lefty spec. to be used as 2nd MR, MR should be his primary role and lefty spec secondary... then don't have anyone listed as primary lefty spec. if you don't want them used first.

==> learn dynamics of how the ai makes choices based onteh pecking order you give it in the depth chart. an odd one i like to use for up-and-coming SP aces that aren't quite good enough to crack rotation -- Long Relief with a high levereage secondary role - these guys can get 100ip or more with this role.

this ignores injuries, and you can't predict them. adjust on the fly as needed.

when i have a strong rotation, i often only use 1 setup primary role.. the top MR will often have a setup secondary - or whomever i want the ai to choose when theother guy is tired. cl 8th plus with a su 7 or later or sometimes 6th or later if innings are scarce... ie they can't reach 70-80ip consistently.

i let the use dictate such things. with experience you can predict it. I know when 2 setup guys are going to split ~100ip and adjust to taht context.. if i have a crap rotation, you need 2 setup for sure.

Timofmars · 04-10-2018, 03:27 AM

Players that are the starter in a game get a kind of a multiplier bonus to stamina, allowing them to pitch longer than they would be able to if that came in as a reliever. On the other hand, relievers get a bonus to their Stuff rating that is determined by the strength of their best 2 pitches compared to their other pitches (representing the idea that they don't need to mix in their other weaker pitches because they will only see a batter 1 time usually, unlike a starter that goes through the lineup multiple times). You can see this effect on Stuff by changing a player's role in their action menu. Though I prefer to think of the reliever bonus stuff as a starting pitcher penalty. So if I have 2 pitchers capable of being a starter, I must consider who suffers the largest penalty playing as pitcher (it'll be the pitcher whose best 2 pitches are much better than the others), and also who I want to have a stamina bonus to be able to pitch more (I want the better pitcher throwing more)

Relievers will generally get better results against batters because of that stuff bonus and because of the fact that there's a bigger pool of relievers (anyone can be a reliever), but only a subset of pitchers can be a starter. Starters need more stamina (I think 25/100 is the minimum required by the game, I've heard?), and they generally need 3 or more pitches that are decent compared to each other. If they only have 2 strong pitches, but the 3rd is weak, they would get a large bonus to stuff if they are a reliever, and so would be giving up that large bonus if forced to be a starter.

The idea behind stopper is that you may want your best guys to come in when there is trouble, since that may be when their strong abilities will have the most effect on the outcome of the game. The idea behind closers is that you use the closer in the last inning when holding a lead because you know their success in the inning will be valuable because it gives you the win, whereas using a reliever successfully earlier in the game may or may not be important depending on if that scoreless inning made the difference in the game's outcome. If your team scored a bunch of insurance runs later, or if the other team took the lead later anyway, that earlier inning performance was wasted. So both stoppers and closers are different ways to try to maximize the value of an elite pitcher.

As for what ratings are important, it can depend on the situation. With a 1 run lead, a homerun would be big, so movement is quite important then.

If there are runners on base, especially runners on 3rd, and there are less than 2 outs, then stuff is very important because you want the strikeout so that the runner can't score on a groundout or sacrifice fly. So Stuff would be very important to a stopper, I think.

If there are runners on consecutive bases, especially bases loaded, then control becomes very important. Again, this may be more likely to be the case with a stopper.

If there are no runners on, then control may be less important, as you can maybe afford to give up some walks. This going to be the case for the closer that comes in at the 9th inning. So if you have great pitcher that just lacks control, he perhaps may be used most efficiently as a closer instead of having him try to get you out of a jam in an earlier inning where his lack of control might make him only marginally better than your other more balanced options. But this kind of closer might be okay with the 8th+ setting, where he'll come in late in the 8th if there's trouble, assuming he will be able to get through the 9th as well without getting tired.

If you have a more balanced superstar reliever, with high stuff and pretty good control, then I would put them as stopper.

Another factor is that you want your best relievers to pitch more often, just because they are better. But you need to balance that against needing your best pitchers to be rested and available for important situations. I mean, if your middle relievers are poor and giving away games early because you have too many setup/stopper/closers sitting in the bullpen well-rested because you assigned those roles to your best guys, then you probably would win more games having more of those late guys be assigned to the top middle-relief position, even if it might mean your late game superstars are unavailable some games due to being tired. Your weaker middle relief guys should still have a good chance to put the game away in those cases. That's better than having your stars go mostly unused.

Left/right matchups are nice too. If I have a lefty and righty that are roughly the same in terms of overall ability, I like to try to put them with the same setting (maybe both middle-relief and use-more-often, or both setup secondary, etc.) so that the AI will select the better L/R matchup when possible.

If you have a player that is really good versus only lefties or only righties, and you really don't want him pitching against others, you can use the specialist role. It'd be good to also use this player for long relief, since he can help eat up innings in blowouts, and he otherwise doesn't usually get that much use. Maybe he faces one batter and that's it, when put in as a specialist.

Stamina is nice on a long reliever to help minimize the need for anyone else to pitch during a blowout. Though stamina helps for any player so they can be used more often, but that can be a bit of a luxury to find on a good reliever.

I made another post on pitchers recently here.

04-09-2018, 03:09 AM	#1
Wibbster Bat Boy Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 5	New to game and baseball - help with setting up pitching staff Hey all, So I'm completely new to OOTP, and almost new to baseball in general. I have a bunch of questions related to setting up the pitching staff that I'd really appreciate some help with..... What's the difference between a Stopper and a Closer? Apart from general pitching ability, what factors should I consider for deciding my starting rotation? I get that my 'ace' should be first, but is it then just a case of ordering by how good they are? Which ratings are important for the different pitching roles? What makes a good Starter vs Reliever vs Closer? What do I need to consider when setting up my relievers? I realise there's a lot of questions here, but I've been struggling to find the answers to these. There's a fair bit of information around on setting up batting lineups, but nowhere near as much about pitching. Thanks in advance, Wibbster

04-09-2018, 03:30 PM	#4
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/1 (3)	yeah, it's now available as an option outside of historical play. (stopper) it's a similar but slightly different role from closer.. if i gave an answer it would simply be copy/pasted from a google search, lol... probably typically used more than 1 inning at a time is the biggest difference? not quite as specific of a role. i am familiar with closers and typically use them 8th+ or later instead of 9thonly. i'm sure a stopper in a modern bullpen settings (extreme use of even 1 tick down on Stats and AI settings page).will be very similar in use to a closer... i would venture to say that other dynamics from historic play would make it diverge more. trial and error in ootp no matter what people say.. how does it work for you? compare the two and use the role you prefer. 2) sometimes a lefty isn't quite in order of best to worst, but yeah.. i like accumulating career stats, so i often will set it up based on whom i will keep longer.. but that's irrational behaviour and results in a couple less wins in some years.. but they get more wins and GS 3) what "he" said. i don't care how an rp gets them out.. as long as he doesn't let up runs i like them. max and >max stuff wil be the elite Setup and Closers for sure... preferably your top MR should be similar too on a team that has WS aspirations. rp can dip a bit lower in control -- mainly because i think it doesn't degrade as much the first ~20 pitches or whatever (made up #). that's the only reason i can come up with.. but a sub 50/100 control can still rack up awesome RP stats worthy of HoF. way less likely for an SP. so dynamics are a bit different for each. just look at top RP and SP each year.. try to eliminate the one-year wonders and find a correlation. see how far any one rating can dip and still have amazing results. what allows for that to happen? is it consistent? 4) without getting into too much opinion, i let teh quality of my rotation dictate a lot of the choices i make in my bullpen. are they going to be in heavy use or light use or somewhere in between. that's a function of stamina and quality of those SP. if they all get 200ip or more, you can be very aggressive in your use of your bullpen, because you should feel fairly confidnet they will get regular rest. my best RP is the closer, but some don't like that... they prefer to use the best guy in the 'worst' situations.. or higher leverage situations... unless you play the games out.. this is very difficult to ensure through a depth chart. i tweak my coaches - i use 1-2 ticks twoard non-traditional use of closer and 8th+ or later to attempt to do the same thing without worry too much about it. i want saves more than concern for leverage, lol.. (irrational). i want my top ~4 guys (70-80ip/year or more, if possible) to get all the important innings. that leaves 100-200ip for the rest depending on strength of the rotation. i set up my depth chart for that to be the case... the ai won't run out an overly tired "use more" guy when a fully rested "use less" guy is there... etc.. i stratify it as best i can. if i want the lefty spec. to be used as 2nd MR, MR should be his primary role and lefty spec secondary... then don't have anyone listed as primary lefty spec. if you don't want them used first. ==> learn dynamics of how the ai makes choices based onteh pecking order you give it in the depth chart. an odd one i like to use for up-and-coming SP aces that aren't quite good enough to crack rotation -- Long Relief with a high levereage secondary role - these guys can get 100ip or more with this role. this ignores injuries, and you can't predict them. adjust on the fly as needed. when i have a strong rotation, i often only use 1 setup primary role.. the top MR will often have a setup secondary - or whomever i want the ai to choose when theother guy is tired. cl 8th plus with a su 7 or later or sometimes 6th or later if innings are scarce... ie they can't reach 70-80ip consistently. i let the use dictate such things. with experience you can predict it. I know when 2 setup guys are going to split ~100ip and adjust to taht context.. if i have a crap rotation, you need 2 setup for sure.

04-10-2018, 03:27 AM	#5
Timofmars Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 251	Players that are the starter in a game get a kind of a multiplier bonus to stamina, allowing them to pitch longer than they would be able to if that came in as a reliever. On the other hand, relievers get a bonus to their Stuff rating that is determined by the strength of their best 2 pitches compared to their other pitches (representing the idea that they don't need to mix in their other weaker pitches because they will only see a batter 1 time usually, unlike a starter that goes through the lineup multiple times). You can see this effect on Stuff by changing a player's role in their action menu. Though I prefer to think of the reliever bonus stuff as a starting pitcher penalty. So if I have 2 pitchers capable of being a starter, I must consider who suffers the largest penalty playing as pitcher (it'll be the pitcher whose best 2 pitches are much better than the others), and also who I want to have a stamina bonus to be able to pitch more (I want the better pitcher throwing more) Relievers will generally get better results against batters because of that stuff bonus and because of the fact that there's a bigger pool of relievers (anyone can be a reliever), but only a subset of pitchers can be a starter. Starters need more stamina (I think 25/100 is the minimum required by the game, I've heard?), and they generally need 3 or more pitches that are decent compared to each other. If they only have 2 strong pitches, but the 3rd is weak, they would get a large bonus to stuff if they are a reliever, and so would be giving up that large bonus if forced to be a starter. The idea behind stopper is that you may want your best guys to come in when there is trouble, since that may be when their strong abilities will have the most effect on the outcome of the game. The idea behind closers is that you use the closer in the last inning when holding a lead because you know their success in the inning will be valuable because it gives you the win, whereas using a reliever successfully earlier in the game may or may not be important depending on if that scoreless inning made the difference in the game's outcome. If your team scored a bunch of insurance runs later, or if the other team took the lead later anyway, that earlier inning performance was wasted. So both stoppers and closers are different ways to try to maximize the value of an elite pitcher. As for what ratings are important, it can depend on the situation. With a 1 run lead, a homerun would be big, so movement is quite important then. If there are runners on base, especially runners on 3rd, and there are less than 2 outs, then stuff is very important because you want the strikeout so that the runner can't score on a groundout or sacrifice fly. So Stuff would be very important to a stopper, I think. If there are runners on consecutive bases, especially bases loaded, then control becomes very important. Again, this may be more likely to be the case with a stopper. If there are no runners on, then control may be less important, as you can maybe afford to give up some walks. This going to be the case for the closer that comes in at the 9th inning. So if you have great pitcher that just lacks control, he perhaps may be used most efficiently as a closer instead of having him try to get you out of a jam in an earlier inning where his lack of control might make him only marginally better than your other more balanced options. But this kind of closer might be okay with the 8th+ setting, where he'll come in late in the 8th if there's trouble, assuming he will be able to get through the 9th as well without getting tired. If you have a more balanced superstar reliever, with high stuff and pretty good control, then I would put them as stopper. Another factor is that you want your best relievers to pitch more often, just because they are better. But you need to balance that against needing your best pitchers to be rested and available for important situations. I mean, if your middle relievers are poor and giving away games early because you have too many setup/stopper/closers sitting in the bullpen well-rested because you assigned those roles to your best guys, then you probably would win more games having more of those late guys be assigned to the top middle-relief position, even if it might mean your late game superstars are unavailable some games due to being tired. Your weaker middle relief guys should still have a good chance to put the game away in those cases. That's better than having your stars go mostly unused. Left/right matchups are nice too. If I have a lefty and righty that are roughly the same in terms of overall ability, I like to try to put them with the same setting (maybe both middle-relief and use-more-often, or both setup secondary, etc.) so that the AI will select the better L/R matchup when possible. If you have a player that is really good versus only lefties or only righties, and you really don't want him pitching against others, you can use the specialist role. It'd be good to also use this player for long relief, since he can help eat up innings in blowouts, and he otherwise doesn't usually get that much use. Maybe he faces one batter and that's it, when put in as a specialist. Stamina is nice on a long reliever to help minimize the need for anyone else to pitch during a blowout. Though stamina helps for any player so they can be used more often, but that can be a bit of a luxury to find on a good reliever. I made another post on pitchers recently here.