Base Stealing

DaleReeck · 03-17-2003, 01:00 AM

I've noticed a few annoyances in base stealing while playing out the games. First, I can't begin to count the number of missed base steal attempts (and resulting double plays) due to the "couldn't get a good jump" messages. About 3/4 of my base steal attempts never happen because of this message and its very annoying. I often end up in double plays because I can't even try to get the guy off first base.

Also, when there are two strikes or two outs, I cannot call a steal at all. The computer however, has no such limitation and this seems awfully unfair that the computer can call a steal with two outs and I can't.

Riverdawg · 03-17-2003, 01:03 AM

This has been common in the game since OOTP 3...this is not something new. I guess I have become accustommed to it. True its not fair but it is part of the game. Wonder how much work it would be to make changes for this...

crackpott · 03-17-2003, 01:05 AM

Something else that annoys me is say your player gets a "bad jump" on 3-0. That pitch will ALWAYS be a strike. The pitcher must be a freakin' machine. You'd think occasionally it would be "doesn't get a good jump, but that's ball four, so he'll take 2nd anyway..."

baseballbob · 03-17-2003, 01:08 AM

ouch.

yeah, that doesn't sound too good.

I don't have enough direct experience with directly playing through a game yet to experience that problem firsthand. Actually, I've watched the computer play itself in which the issue that your post is about would not present itself.

But, yeah, assuming that you have everything set up correctly, I would say that is not a small problem in the game but a rather large one really. I really hope this issue gets addressed....if a jump is not available for the player, there should still be an option to try a hit and run.

And not being able to steal with 2 strikes is, well, just kinda silly really.

DaleReeck · 03-17-2003, 01:10 AM

I never noticed this before since this is the first version where I actually play the games instead of simming.

I can live with the "cannot get a good jump" thing, but not being able to steal on two outs or strikes needs to be addressed. The human and computer shouldn't have to play the same game with different rules. I lost a chance to tie a game because I couldn't steal with two outs. Not good.

magicmike · 03-17-2003, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by crackpott
Something else that annoys me is say your player gets a "bad jump" on 3-0. That pitch will ALWAYS be a strike. The pitcher must be a freakin' machine. You'd think occasionally it would be "doesn't get a good jump, but that's ball four, so he'll take 2nd anyway..."

I agree wholeheartedly on this one. It seems to be one of the scenarios with only one possible outcome. Another one is when the third baseman steps on third for the force out and NEVER gets the ball to first in time to complete the double play.

baseballbob · 03-17-2003, 01:24 AM

Did I just now re-read the initial post correctly?

It says that its not possible to steal with 2 outs?

Is that right?

I opened up the game to test for myself.
It gave me the option to attempt a steal with 2 outs, but the player was not able to get a jump on the first two tries...and, of course, that was all the tries available.

Is it the case that its not possilbe to successfully get a jump with 2 outs?

Ragnar · 03-17-2003, 01:38 AM

You CAN steal with 2 outs. I find it no more difficult to steal with 2 outs than normal. You just can't steal with 2 strikes. And as far as the computer is concerned he CANNOT steal with 2 strikes either.

magicmike · 03-17-2003, 01:44 AM

Does anyone else think it's way to easy to double steal? Provided I have a fast runner at second I almost never fail on double steals. On the other hand stealing third when no one's on first seems to be suitably challenging.

baseballbob · 03-17-2003, 01:49 AM

Thanks Ragnar...that does make me feel somewhat better.

I'm not sure that I should have said it is 'silly' to not have steals with 2 strikes since OOTP5 is set up around a modified one-pitch mode anyway...so, in a way, assuming that all steals require the batter to take the pitch (which is also not realistic LOL)....

how about the option to 'run and hit'
I think that would solve the problems here.
On a run and hit, the priority is on the stolen base attempt...but, if the batter gets a pitch he wants (and, if there are 2 strikes and its in the strike zone it is certainly a pitch he wants) then the batter can swing at it at his discretion.

Other than having to code for the possibility of a strike em out throw em out end of inning (which might entail some bug hunting to implement smoothly) it seems that the option of a run and hit would take care of what currently seems to be the strategic-based difficulty in allowing SB attempts with 2 strikes.

Charlie Hustle · 03-17-2003, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by baseballbob
Other than having to code for the possibility of a strike em out throw em out end of inning (which might entail some bug hunting to implement smoothly) it seems that the option of a run and hit would take care of what currently seems to be the strategic-based difficulty in allowing SB attempts with 2 strikes.

I generally sim most of my games, but I'm almost possitive I've taken part in a strike'em-out-throw'em-out double play. I think it happened to me on a failed hit and run with 1 out and a man at first.

Like I said, I generally sim, so I could be wrong here.

Eugene Church · 03-17-2003, 02:13 AM

I play out a lot of games and have never seen a strike'm out throw'm out double play...or a step on third and throw to first double play...it's also extremely rare to get a home to first double play. Catchers only average about 3 DP's per season in OOTP4...and around 10 in real life.

Ragnar · 03-17-2003, 04:41 AM

OOTP is getting there. They added the pickoffs which is nice. Run and Hit will probably be next. But running logic would also be nice. Like aggressive/normal, or caucious on the base pads. An added IP feature for H2H play would get me to buy it at almost any price (:

Dazooz · 03-17-2003, 09:34 AM

I have no numbers to back up my comments, but in my opinion, after playing 2 1/2 full seasons, every game played out, I find it too easy to double steal, stealing third with lone runner on second feels about right, but stealing 2nd seems a bit tougher than it should be. I consistently have fast runners and good base stealers (A,B or B,A) thrown out by C arm catchers and C rating on pitchers. I get thrown out probably almost 40-45% of the time with these fast runners. I have also found that it is more difficult than it should be to steal second with a runner on 1st and 3rd. That is usually a pretty easy steal for major leaguers but is more difficult in playing out OOTP.

ctorg · 03-17-2003, 11:33 AM

What I don't like is that you can't hit & run with 2 strikes, which I'd really like to be able to do. And whenever I've had runners on 1st and 2nd, I've never not been able to get a good lead to double steal. And if you can't get a good lead, you should still be able to steal, just with diminished chances for success, like in Strat-O-Matic.

It's little things like these limitations and the overall lack of options that prevent me from playing out games. I don't really mind, since I'm more into the GM-Commish roles anyway, but hopefully at some point the in-game play can be overhauled.

Sweed · 03-17-2003, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DaleReeck
I've noticed a few annoyances in base stealing while playing out the games. First, I can't begin to count the number of missed base steal attempts (and resulting double plays) due to the "couldn't get a good jump" messages. About 3/4 of my base steal attempts never happen because of this message and its very annoying. I often end up in double plays because I can't even try to get the guy off first base.

Also, when there are two strikes or two outs, I cannot call a steal at all. The computer however, has no such limitation and this seems awfully unfair that the computer can call a steal with two outs and I can't.

What are the speed and steal ratings of the player? Did you know the speed rating determines if the player gets a jump while the steal rating determines if he's succesful? In other words if a guy has a "D" for speed and an "A" for stealing he won't get many jumps but he will be succesful a high pct of the time if he does get a jump. IMHO the system works pretty well, I've had no trouble getting "A-A" guys to get 40 or more steals and guys that are "D-A"get maybe 10 because they don't read pitchers well enough to get a jump.

Remember too, you can always hit and run forcing your runner on first to go.

strayhorn · 03-18-2003, 05:04 PM

I find that the only way I can steal bases is through Hit and Runs. Using the straight steal button results in the "doesn't get a good jump" far too often, but with hit and runs, he's going no matter what. To me, if I want my player to steal, even if he gets a bad jump, he should still try to steal the base because I told him to. He may be caught stealing more, but at least the player followed my orders to steal.

Another minor problem is that everyone steals on the first pitch. I think a "take pitch" choice might help. This way, we might be able to steal/hit and run on counts other than 0-0. Right now it's either hit and run on the first pitch, a bad jump, or a steal (which rarely happens due to the bad jumps). For me it's rare to get a 3-0 or 3-1 hit and runs or steals because you'd need to get bad jumps on three balls to get that count. Either that or some kind of stoppage like a wild pitch.

Another possiblity might be more foul balls on hit and runs (resulting in more variety of counts) or even different counts when stealing.

Speaking of stolen bases, I'd like to see a double steal option for guys on 1st and 3rd with the guy on 3rd waiting to see if the catch throws to 2nd before making a possible steal to home. Usually in these double steals, the catcher will hold the ball or throw it back to the pitcher and give up the stolen base instead of risking an error or having the guy from 3rd come in.

ctorg · 03-19-2003, 09:21 AM

I like the "take pitch" idea. That would really be a cool option.

As for stealing, I like how Strat-O-Matic does it, which follows a similar sequence of events.

Based on a first rating, the game determines whether the runner gets a good jump. If he does, he can steal at his normal rating. If he doesn't, he has something like a 20% less chance of success. The game then asks you if you still want to give it a try. Usually, the 20% drop is enough to dissuade a manager from stealing, but at least you still have the option.

Big Train · 03-20-2003, 02:35 PM

Yeah the problem with double stealing is the computer never tries to throw out the runner going from 1st to 2nd,which it should do if that runner is very slow. That way only double steals with two fast runners would have a good chance of success (which is realistic)

I personally like the "can't get a good jump" thing. Otherwise it would be like the runner was always stealing on the 1st pitch. Sometimes your base stealer doesn't feel confident about stealing even though you want him to

JML · 03-20-2003, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by magicmike
Does anyone else think it's way to easy to double steal? Provided I have a fast runner at second I almost never fail on double steals. On the other hand stealing third when no one's on first seems to be suitably challenging.

YES. I can't remember the last time a runner was thrown out on a double steal. Stealing third seems to be pretty tough, but if it's a double steal, the runners ALWAYS get a good jump, and pretty much never get thrown out. Also, even with an A runner at second and an E runner at first, the catcher will always throw to third, so I never have to worry about the snail going for second getting thrown out.

03-17-2003, 01:00 AM	#1
DaleReeck Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 91	Base Stealing I've noticed a few annoyances in base stealing while playing out the games. First, I can't begin to count the number of missed base steal attempts (and resulting double plays) due to the "couldn't get a good jump" messages. About 3/4 of my base steal attempts never happen because of this message and its very annoying. I often end up in double plays because I can't even try to get the guy off first base. Also, when there are two strikes or two outs, I cannot call a steal at all. The computer however, has no such limitation and this seems awfully unfair that the computer can call a steal with two outs and I can't.

03-17-2003, 01:03 AM	#2
Riverdawg Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Woodstock...not NY Posts: 198	This has been common in the game since OOTP 3...this is not something new. I guess I have become accustommed to it. True its not fair but it is part of the game. Wonder how much work it would be to make changes for this... __________________ "The ball didn't do its job. I did my job. The ball didn't do its job," - Coca Crisp comments after he dropped a routine fly ball during a home opener for the Cleveland Indians on April 12, 2004.

03-17-2003, 01:05 AM	#3
crackpott Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,961	Something else that annoys me is say your player gets a "bad jump" on 3-0. That pitch will ALWAYS be a strike. The pitcher must be a freakin' machine. You'd think occasionally it would be "doesn't get a good jump, but that's ball four, so he'll take 2nd anyway..." __________________ Abandoned Planet - Check it out. The photos don't suck anymore.

03-17-2003, 01:44 AM	#9
magicmike Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Hawaii Posts: 365	Does anyone else think it's way to easy to double steal? Provided I have a fast runner at second I almost never fail on double steals. On the other hand stealing third when no one's on first seems to be suitably challenging. __________________ aloha and mahalo HCBL Kansas City Royals 2003 AL Central Champs SMLB Houston Astros VLB Anaheim Angels UBL Pittsburgh Pirates "Barry Bonds? I'll tell you what, if he hit a home run off (Bob) Gibson or (Don) Drysdale and stood and admired it, they'd knock that earring out of his ear the next time up." - National League Umpire Doug Harvey

03-17-2003, 11:33 AM	#15
ctorg Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 9,848	What I don't like is that you can't hit & run with 2 strikes, which I'd really like to be able to do. And whenever I've had runners on 1st and 2nd, I've never not been able to get a good lead to double steal. And if you can't get a good lead, you should still be able to steal, just with diminished chances for success, like in Strat-O-Matic. It's little things like these limitations and the overall lack of options that prevent me from playing out games. I don't really mind, since I'm more into the GM-Commish roles anyway, but hopefully at some point the in-game play can be overhauled. __________________ My music "When the trees blow back and forth, that's what makes the wind." - Steven Wright Fjord emena pancreas thorax fornicate marmalade morpheme proteolysis smaxa cabana offal srue vitriol grope hallelujah lentils

03-17-2003, 01:08 AM	#4
baseballbob Minors (Double A) Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 101	ouch. yeah, that doesn't sound too good. I don't have enough direct experience with directly playing through a game yet to experience that problem firsthand. Actually, I've watched the computer play itself in which the issue that your post is about would not present itself. But, yeah, assuming that you have everything set up correctly, I would say that is not a small problem in the game but a rather large one really. I really hope this issue gets addressed....if a jump is not available for the player, there should still be an option to try a hit and run. And not being able to steal with 2 strikes is, well, just kinda silly really.

03-17-2003, 01:10 AM	#5
DaleReeck Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 91	I never noticed this before since this is the first version where I actually play the games instead of simming. I can live with the "cannot get a good jump" thing, but not being able to steal on two outs or strikes needs to be addressed. The human and computer shouldn't have to play the same game with different rules. I lost a chance to tie a game because I couldn't steal with two outs. Not good.

03-17-2003, 01:24 AM	#7
baseballbob Minors (Double A) Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 101	Did I just now re-read the initial post correctly? It says that its not possible to steal with 2 outs? Is that right? I opened up the game to test for myself. It gave me the option to attempt a steal with 2 outs, but the player was not able to get a jump on the first two tries...and, of course, that was all the tries available. Is it the case that its not possilbe to successfully get a jump with 2 outs?

03-17-2003, 01:38 AM	#8
Ragnar Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,563	You CAN steal with 2 outs. I find it no more difficult to steal with 2 outs than normal. You just can't steal with 2 strikes. And as far as the computer is concerned he CANNOT steal with 2 strikes either.

03-17-2003, 01:49 AM	#10
baseballbob Minors (Double A) Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 101	Thanks Ragnar...that does make me feel somewhat better. I'm not sure that I should have said it is 'silly' to not have steals with 2 strikes since OOTP5 is set up around a modified one-pitch mode anyway...so, in a way, assuming that all steals require the batter to take the pitch (which is also not realistic LOL).... how about the option to 'run and hit' I think that would solve the problems here. On a run and hit, the priority is on the stolen base attempt...but, if the batter gets a pitch he wants (and, if there are 2 strikes and its in the strike zone it is certainly a pitch he wants) then the batter can swing at it at his discretion. Other than having to code for the possibility of a strike em out throw em out end of inning (which might entail some bug hunting to implement smoothly) it seems that the option of a run and hit would take care of what currently seems to be the strategic-based difficulty in allowing SB attempts with 2 strikes.

03-17-2003, 02:13 AM	#12
Eugene Church Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 36,140	I play out a lot of games and have never seen a strike'm out throw'm out double play...or a step on third and throw to first double play...it's also extremely rare to get a home to first double play. Catchers only average about 3 DP's per season in OOTP4...and around 10 in real life.

03-17-2003, 04:41 AM	#13
Ragnar Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,563	OOTP is getting there. They added the pickoffs which is nice. Run and Hit will probably be next. But running logic would also be nice. Like aggressive/normal, or caucious on the base pads. An added IP feature for H2H play would get me to buy it at almost any price (:

03-17-2003, 09:34 AM	#14
Dazooz Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 193	I have no numbers to back up my comments, but in my opinion, after playing 2 1/2 full seasons, every game played out, I find it too easy to double steal, stealing third with lone runner on second feels about right, but stealing 2nd seems a bit tougher than it should be. I consistently have fast runners and good base stealers (A,B or B,A) thrown out by C arm catchers and C rating on pitchers. I get thrown out probably almost 40-45% of the time with these fast runners. I have also found that it is more difficult than it should be to steal second with a runner on 1st and 3rd. That is usually a pretty easy steal for major leaguers but is more difficult in playing out OOTP.

03-18-2003, 05:04 PM	#17
strayhorn Bat Boy Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 13	I find that the only way I can steal bases is through Hit and Runs. Using the straight steal button results in the "doesn't get a good jump" far too often, but with hit and runs, he's going no matter what. To me, if I want my player to steal, even if he gets a bad jump, he should still try to steal the base because I told him to. He may be caught stealing more, but at least the player followed my orders to steal. Another minor problem is that everyone steals on the first pitch. I think a "take pitch" choice might help. This way, we might be able to steal/hit and run on counts other than 0-0. Right now it's either hit and run on the first pitch, a bad jump, or a steal (which rarely happens due to the bad jumps). For me it's rare to get a 3-0 or 3-1 hit and runs or steals because you'd need to get bad jumps on three balls to get that count. Either that or some kind of stoppage like a wild pitch. Another possiblity might be more foul balls on hit and runs (resulting in more variety of counts) or even different counts when stealing. Speaking of stolen bases, I'd like to see a double steal option for guys on 1st and 3rd with the guy on 3rd waiting to see if the catch throws to 2nd before making a possible steal to home. Usually in these double steals, the catcher will hold the ball or throw it back to the pitcher and give up the stolen base instead of risking an error or having the guy from 3rd come in.

03-19-2003, 09:21 AM	#18
ctorg Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 9,848	I like the "take pitch" idea. That would really be a cool option. As for stealing, I like how Strat-O-Matic does it, which follows a similar sequence of events. Based on a first rating, the game determines whether the runner gets a good jump. If he does, he can steal at his normal rating. If he doesn't, he has something like a 20% less chance of success. The game then asks you if you still want to give it a try. Usually, the 20% drop is enough to dissuade a manager from stealing, but at least you still have the option. __________________ My music "When the trees blow back and forth, that's what makes the wind." - Steven Wright Fjord emena pancreas thorax fornicate marmalade morpheme proteolysis smaxa cabana offal srue vitriol grope hallelujah lentils

03-20-2003, 02:35 PM	#19
Big Train Major Leagues Join Date: May 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 402	Yeah the problem with double stealing is the computer never tries to throw out the runner going from 1st to 2nd,which it should do if that runner is very slow. That way only double steals with two fast runners would have a good chance of success (which is realistic) I personally like the "can't get a good jump" thing. Otherwise it would be like the runner was always stealing on the 1st pitch. Sometimes your base stealer doesn't feel confident about stealing even though you want him to Last edited by Big Train; 03-20-2003 at 02:39 PM.