How deep IS the detail in this game? Young pitchers, pitch counts, and inactivity.

[One Post Wonder]

I recently read that OOTP keeps track of wear and tear on a pitchers arm that goes beyond what you can see on the screen. I had no idea of this and I've been playing this game for at least 15 years.

So what that means is, a 21 year old pitcher who is throwing 240 innings a year, 120 pitches a game, is probably not going to wind up with a long career. That does match up with my own playing experience, but is that actually true (as in coded in the game), or just coincidence?

Also for the first time in 15 years of play, I really paid attention to pitch counts in the last solo season I played. Pitch counts of 75 for starters in Spring Training, relatively low counts in early/mid April, and then extending to normal pitch counts based upon individual stamina after that. I was stunned at the results - I had no significant injuries, shaved a run off my ERA with largely the same pitchers and almost led the NL in that category. As the Cubs.

Do pitch counts really work in this way, or did I get lucky?

And what else have I not picked up on?

Do bench players and bottom of the bullpen guys lose their edge if you don't use them regularly? Not talking about ratings here, I'm talking about on-field performance.

Do non-pitchers drop off in the late months if you're playing them nearly every day, even if their fatigue level says that they're fully rested? Is this especially true if your home park is in a hot part of the country?

Should pitchers that have just come back from an injury be really limited in their pitch counts? Especially severe injuries?

There's other questions that I haven't thought of yet, but you get what I'm saying... on top of the above, how deep does this game go when it comes to such things? It all might answer a lot of gripes people have about injuries and players in their prime suddenly falling off a cliff.

[slugger922cubs]

Short answer: Yes to all of that. If you handle those things like you see MLB teams handle those things you will get better, more realistic results.

Long Answer: As with everything in baseball its really tough to quantify the effects of those things and OOTP is a simulation. It ultimately gets most things rights but its trying to emulate what may happen in real lfe and it may not be 100% accurate. Best to feel things out for what the proper balances maybe in OOTP vs what actaully happens in real life. But in general concepts are the same. Players fatigue, wear, get rust and need to balance playing time for rest and sharpness. Platooning and splits do matter and have effects, etc.

[One Post Wonder]

That's very impressive. It's like I've got a whole new game in front of me right now. I've been underestimating OOTP for a long, long time - playing it solely based on what the screen and manual are telling me and not as a 'real' baseball man.

Sounds bad that I'd have such glaring gaps in my knowledge after so much time with this game, but even without that I was good enough to easily crush the AI, so I never felt the need to push the envelope. I had been wondering why I never had one of those hall of fame pitchers that stayed with me throughout their career, though, since I emphasize pitching and put some amazing staffs out there. I'd just dump a guy at any sign of decline and bring someone else in. Those pitchers, all along, were probably getting early declines because of overuse.

Of course, I was well aware of platooning and splits. That information is right there on the screen, after all. But these other things regarding health, development, and fatigue are a real eye-opener.

Gotta say though that the manual is in sore need of an upgrade. This stuff is a really big deal. Of course, this is a baseball simulation and baseball concepts should apply, but you can't necessarily assume that a game is going to be that true to life unless it tells you so.

[NoOne]

ST won't require a pitch count.. i think it's @60 or so without setting anything... 4ip for a starter before tehy are taken out, regardless.

you probably won't get that much of an improvement of your era over a longer period of time, but if you were pitchign guys tired more often than you do now, you will see some improvement.

this assumes you adjust to context too.. sometimes a really bad bullpen causes you to run that SP out for one more inning etc. sometimes the opposite and everythign in between.

if you play games out, simply take note of the moment they turn "slightly tired".. if you don't go far beyond that, they typically recover near ~100% by their next turn in the rotation. a pitch count for the ai should be ~7-10 below that point to acheive the same ends (~100% by next start).

at the moment, i don't htink inactivity during the season is a problem... this assumes that 'rust' was knocked off during spring training. since these types of guys are lower inning totals even for an RP, it's nearly impossible to tell from 1 or 2 players in 1 season. during the season, you do not accrue rust on an active roster from what i know, but it does take playing time to knock rust off from offseason or injuries that take you off the active roster for longer periods of time.

i often will switch up a more often used older RP with an up and coming RP. when this occurs midseason and consider many players, it works out as you would expect based on ratings. (or if unseen, the ratings you cannot see)

[Marsupilami]

i think its all hogwash

[One Post Wonder]

Yeah, I think I got waaay too excited before based on what I thought I was seeing.

I exclusively sim. Coaches/Managers off (not being able to see how good a coach is without the editor drives me up the wall). Bullpen was the same both years (above average, not overworked), and so were strategy settings.

A big thing I didn't mention was that this was also the first year where I had the rotation on a strict order vs highest rested. The AI considers 80% rested to be good enough to start a game. I don't. So with strict order, now my guys were starting at 100% all year.

I don't think long term arm fatigue or general player fatigue is counted beyond what we see after all, because there are just no numbers like that in the editor. I guess it's possible that for each high stress start, the pitcher has a slight chance of a small increase in injury percentage or tiny decrease in ability or something. And pitches thrown are counted as stats. But I'm not seeing where they could be realistically applied to a player.

Same with in-season rust. It's a shame that these kinds of things aren't in - OOTP is mature enough now that these types of details should be a part of the game IMHO.

The thing is, I'm not really sure what real-life factors are in and there's no way to tell. For example, I read in the manual not long ago that according to OOTP the difference between artificial and grass surfaces was strictly cosmetic, which is nonsense. But then I looked through the stats of a lot of pitchers in my world, and it seems like groundballers are getting hammered on turf, which is how it should be. On the other hand, power pitchers IRL are supposed to be more effective at night, but I haven't seen any sign of that in the game. I see what looks like an increase in strikeouts but no overall favoring of any type of pitcher.

I still play this game in a lot of ways like I played OOTP4. Get the best players I can, find effective platoons, etc, etc.. very basic stuff. It's good enough to be successful, but I'm not getting all I can get out of the game, I think. I know the engine is far more realistic now than back then, but without details there's not much point in adjusting my strategy to accommodate those changes.

[NoOne]

this is all real as shown be very basic math and a few facts we know or can observe in game without a spreadsheet or a calculator (just an eyeball).

they are more liekly to get hurt when pitchign tired, that's for sure true..
they don't pitch as well when tired -- defintieyl true
it costs more for 1 pitch after 'tired' than before that point relative to how much they can throw in the next game. it is not an equal cost.

so, avoiding it will help for sure. maybe not a full 1.00era less, though.

one other note about starting highest rested -- this is where a pitch count helps a lot. ~80% won't happen with a good pitch count. maximizing GS results in more IP then pitchign tired in a few games and the resulting loss of pitches or delayed start in their next spot in rotation due to being <100%.

the percentage fatigue you lose (or gain depending on perspective) per pitch after "tired" is not equal to the first ~100 or so pitches... therefore, you can throw more in a season when you avoid a pitcher throwing when tired.

e.g. let's say it is +10 (totally made up, use "x") pitches beyond "slightly tired" where that pitcher will be ~82% by their next regular day in rotation. they lose MORE than 10pitches relative to how many it takes to get to "tired" in that start. i.e. they can throw fewer times in same # of GS and at a lower ability when tired, remember too.

this is most easily seen with a high-end KB pitcher, because they are more consistent at staying in a game long enouhg that pitch count is often enough that pitch count is used neaerly every start.

i can get ~280ip with no pitch counts, but i can get 2 extra GS and ~300ip when i use a pitch count. mileage may vary (i have custom 6on1off schedule for example) but what cannot change is the dynamic...the math stays the same. 1 way costs more. it is not 6 in one half dozen in the other.

it costs more stamina/fatigue to pithc tired, therefore if you pitch tired in a lot of starts you will throw fewer innings over a season. and, a larger portion of those pitches will be thrown when tired and at a lower ability than normal for that pitcher... quantitatively worse.

Strict order -- not as important when there is a day off - removing it for 1 GS is always an option... it doesn't have to be the same pitch count every game.

without a day off, you have no option to substitute that ~80% SP excluding a AAA call-up, which also may have fatigue issues by chance, if last second decision like this.

1 other factor could make it unimportant to a large degree... this will assume 5-man rotation - 2 SP fatigue settings work for a 5-man rotation... if you see the high stamina guys "ready" 1 day early, it's not the same setting as i am using and some things that i say need to be amended based on those differences.

low and very low? i can't recall the syntax. 1 allows for the high-stamina SP guys to pitch on 3 days off instead of 4 days off. all the concepts would apply, but 1 less day for those guys etc... you could get more starts under that 'other' setting for sure on these guys... (1/4 of 162)=GS > (1/5*162) not counting days off that help..7 or 8 more starts in that situation will guarantee more IP than ekeing out a few tired innings over the course of a season.. and better results (quantitatively true due to pitchign tired being a negative effect and minimizing such behaviour)

either way, paying attnetion to pitch counts and their effect on the next start can most defintieyl improve your results. it's undeniable in OotP. to argue with it is to argue with what basic math tells us to be true and not some opinion or feeling.

[One Post Wonder]

Oh, I agree completely with what you're saying about pitch counts here. There is no arguing the math and common sense. In terms of value per pitch, pitching a tried SP is destructive and pointless.

But when I talk about realism, I'm talking about the long-term real life effects of pitch counts. So take one of your 300 ip starters. Now in real life, if that's a 22 year old and you're throwing him 300 ip per season, it's almost a guarantee that he's going to be average at best by age 30. In OOTP, that type of long-term fatigue doesn't seem to apply. The odds are still good that a young phenom will drop off, but that's more because of random talent influences and injury effects than innings pitched.

Also with the 80% vs 100%... the problem is that even with pitch counts, the AI considers 80% rested to be 'ready to go'. So an SP with pitch counts might be at 80% in 3 days instead of 4, and the AI will start him then. He's still at 80%, just a day earlier. What I want is for the AI to wait that extra day until he's at 98 or 100%, so I'm getting the best out of him. But the AI as far as I can see won't do that. So the only way I can avoid that is turn off, "Start Highest Rested".

I used to like to get large amounts of IP for my SP so that they'd put up gaudy counting stats and win awards, but now I'm the type that would rather get 230 truly optimal innings out of a pitcher than 300 good, but not the best he can do innings, if you know what I mean.

IMO the AI sim strategy hasn't kept up with the improvements to the game engine itself. There should be ways that I, or an AI manager can say, "Try not to use an SP until he's 100% unless it's the playoffs or we're in a really tight race in late September". I should be able to say, "Try not to start a groundball pitcher in the Astrodome", or with offense be able to say, "When this guy is playing left field and they bring in a lefthander, sub him out and put his platoon partner there."

I'm going to start playing 7 day lineups I think... it's the only way I'm going to be really satisfied with the way the rotation is used. I suspect that at the end of the season I'll be leading the league in ERA, even though I'm playing in Wrigley Field for 81 games a year.