Fictional Divisional Alignment

AndyHustle · 08-22-2017, 01:10 AM

In my 32 team fictional league, I have had the two leagues set at two, 8 team divisions within each league since the last expansion probably 20 years ago. I'm thinking of switching to 4x4 instead of the 2x8. What are the pros and cons that you guys know of?

Currently, the 2x8 seems to keep everybody in the playoff hunt longer which I really like.

cmaug · 08-22-2017, 07:22 AM

one of the consistent complaints about 4-team divisions is that you are more likely to get a crappy team in the playoffs as a division winner

Mr. Marlin · 08-22-2017, 08:23 AM

It's your game, you can play it your way. That is the beauty of OOTP. But this is just my $.02. What appealed to me about baseball in the beginning was that it was a true meritocracy. If you win your league in the regular season you went to the championship. Having the best record in the regular season was all that mattered. That means the regular season matters. In the NBA & NHL, almost a third of all the teams get in the playoffs. The regular season does not means as much. And with many small divisions a bad team can win a bad division as cmaug pointed out. I prefer two leagues with one division each. Every regular season win is meaningful then and if makes you watch the scoreboard every single game.

Hrycaj · 08-22-2017, 08:40 AM

I prefer divisions based on geography. It makes more sense in my mind. However, one thing that I do differently is how I handle my playoffs. At seasons end I manually put the teams with the best records into the playoffs. So weak divisions are not represented for a few years at times. I like to write about my fictional leagues. I get great story lines when a team out of a certain division represents that division for the first time in x amount of years.

Le Grande Orange · 08-22-2017, 09:52 PM

Divisions of just four teams are too small for the majors, in my opinion. Six teams strikes me as perhaps the ideal size; five or seven is acceptable (though of course odd numbers made scheduling more difficult). Eight is too many.

In spite of the scheduling difficulties it presents, I'd opt for three divisions: 6-5-5 (or variant thereof).

YMMV, naturally.

Charley575 · 08-22-2017, 10:53 PM

I currently have the same setup. 2 Leagues, 2 Divisions of 8 in each. For the playoffs, there is 1 wildcard from each league. #1 Seed gets a first round bye. 2nd Seed plays an all home 3 game series against the WC to advance to the league championship, which is set up as a traditional 2-3-2 series.
I had tried the 8 divisions of 4 teams in a previous league and hated it. There's always that one garbage division that spits out a "champion" with a losing record. I think I had a 75 win team get in once (162 game season). I swore never again. (Don't get me started about the current NFL setup. That's bull____.)
Anyways I'm quite happy with the way I have it set up now.

thirdsaint · 08-23-2017, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Marlin

It's your game, you can play it your way. That is the beauty of OOTP. But this is just my $.02. What appealed to me about baseball in the beginning was that it was a true meritocracy. If you win your league in the regular season you went to the championship. Having the best record in the regular season was all that mattered. That means the regular season matters. In the NBA & NHL, almost a third of all the teams get in the playoffs. The regular season does not means as much. And with many small divisions a bad team can win a bad division as cmaug pointed out. I prefer two leagues with one division each. Every regular season win is meaningful then and if makes you watch the scoreboard every single game.

Although, on the flip side of that, if only one team from each league makes it you could end up with playoff races that are over by June. I find the sweet spot in the middle somewhere and liked the old 3 division winners + 1 Wild Card. That's about 25% of the league that makes the playoffs which is way better than 50%. To each his own though for sure.

NoOne · 08-23-2017, 11:24 AM

it's all about the competition for me. i have 3 divisions of 10 teams.

162/9= 18games vs each team in the divisions. still plenty of games vs each other... if it got too small that's when i'd say there's too many teams in the division.

no luck from playing a weaker division in an unbalanced schedule or even more likely from a smaller # of inter-league games that are almost guaranteed to be unfair and beneficial to some teams every year.

still all sorts of good/bad luck with timing of injuries and other things you cannot control, of course... but, i avoid the things that i do control that introduces this type of impurity to the competition. i want the best teams in the playoffs.

30T and i let 6 into the playoffs. top team gets a bye like NFL -- basically they have no SP fatigue issues their first series, and one less series, which i think is a hefty reward. i try not to ever let more than 1/4th into the playoffs in any league. 6/30 in my setup will never have a team that's ~2g above .500 make the playoffs... mediocrity will not make it. that's important to me. if the "7th" best team was really good.. .well.. tough t&tties to them. don't be the 7th best team... there's no trophy for 7th!

also, out of 8-10 teams you should have 3-4 each year vying for at least a wildcard in each division. that will b emore about how the market sizes are distributed and up/down years of the well-endowed budget teams.

David Watts · 08-23-2017, 11:51 AM

For you folks that say you give the top team a bye, do you feel that team shows any signs of rust once their series begins?

Charley575 · 08-23-2017, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Watts

For you folks that say you give the top team a bye, do you feel that team shows any signs of rust once their series begins?

That's why I settled on just a 3 game series for round 1.Long enough to make sure the 1 seed's top starter is rested and their bullpen is fresh but not so long as to make them rusty, or at least it doesn't seem to. I'd have to pour over all 26 seasons to give you exact numbers but if anything I have the impression I may be giving the 1 seed too much advantage.

low · 08-23-2017, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Marlin

It's your game, you can play it your way. That is the beauty of OOTP. But this is just my $.02. What appealed to me about baseball in the beginning was that it was a true meritocracy. If you win your league in the regular season you went to the championship. Having the best record in the regular season was all that mattered. That means the regular season matters. In the NBA & NHL, almost a third of all the teams get in the playoffs. The regular season does not means as much. And with many small divisions a bad team can win a bad division as cmaug pointed out. I prefer two leagues with one division each. Every regular season win is meaningful then and if makes you watch the scoreboard every single game.

It's more than a third. This is one reason why I'll never take the NBA, NHL, or the MLS seriously. And there's no point in divisions if over half the teams in each conference make the playoffs. I totally despise how these leagues work. If the NFL expands the playoffs like they want to I'm going to lose my mind.

BKL · 08-23-2017, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Watts

For you folks that say you give the top team a bye, do you feel that team shows any signs of rust once their series begins?

I play a 24 team, 2 leagues, 2 divisions (6 teams each division) fictional league. In my 15th season, play out every game. Each division winner and one wildcard advance per league. The team with the best record in the league gets a bye.

What I have found is that the team with the bye doesn't so much get rusty as the teams that win the wildcard may be a little hotter since they just won a series and often their players are hot. So, it kind of has the same effect. The team with the bye usually doesn't have any hot players given they had the week off. With that said, I have found this format works very well, with the best teams typically advancing to the World Series.

wallewalls · 08-23-2017, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charley575

I currently have the same setup. 2 Leagues, 2 Divisions of 8 in each. For the playoffs, there is 1 wildcard from each league. #1 Seed gets a first round bye. 2nd Seed plays an all home 3 game series against the WC to advance to the league championship, which is set up as a traditional 2-3-2 series.
I had tried the 8 divisions of 4 teams in a previous league and hated it. There's always that one garbage division that spits out a "champion" with a losing record. I think I had a 75 win team get in once (162 game season). I swore never again. (Don't get me started about the current NFL setup. That's bull____.)
Anyways I'm quite happy with the way I have it set up now.

ohh i like your setup, will be doing that i think in my new fictional league set up

NoOne · 08-23-2017, 04:35 PM

no rust occurs while on an active 25-man roster. no worries about a bye, if you want one.

to the commen about the NFL above, the NHL is the worst... more than half the teams make it! what a joke. at least nfl is closer to 1/3 than 1/2. still too many, i also agree.

Charley575 · 08-23-2017, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoOne

no rust occurs while on an active 25-man roster. no worries about a bye, if you want one.

to the commen about the NFL above, the NHL is the worst... more than half the teams make it! what a joke. at least nfl is closer to 1/3 than 1/2. still too many, i also agree.

I hear you. I just have a huge problem with the notion that a 6 or 7 win team could end up not just in the playoffs, but getting a home game on top of it. Ridiculous.

victims_sanction · 08-23-2017, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Divisions of just four teams are too small for the majors, in my opinion. Six teams strikes me as perhaps the ideal size; five or seven is acceptable (though of course odd numbers made scheduling more difficult). Eight is too many.

In spite of the scheduling difficulties it presents, I'd opt for three divisions: 6-5-5 (or variant thereof).

YMMV, naturally.

This is the set up in going with in my league now (6-5-5). I had for 4 years had the 4x4 set up and there were too many cases of poor teams making it in over deserving teams, also division winners were relatively stable.

For scheduling I just downloaded one that matched my set up from that master list, no problem at all.

buckeye22 · 08-23-2017, 07:30 PM

I like 8 divisions of 4 and HEAVY on divisional play. We're talking 30 games against the other 3 in your division, no interleague, 6 against the other 12 in your league. Really promotes rivalries, should help with the whole "weak division producing a losing record" thing (you're playing so many inside your division, one team is bound to take advantange of the weak division and at least have a winning record), and I'm a huge believer that if you can't even win your division you have no business playing for a title. Wild Cards are absolutely stupid.

I don't have a huge problem with 4x8, assuming the 4 champs are the only ones in the playoffs. But we all know MLB won't go for a major reduction in playoff schedule, so 8x4 is the more likely answer. Either that or we're going to get 3rd place teams in the playoffs more often. Yuck.

Le Grande Orange · 08-23-2017, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Watts

For you folks that say you give the top team a bye, do you feel that team shows any signs of rust once their series begins?

It doesn't seem to hurt too often the real-life top finisher in the KBO, and it gets layoffs lasting quite a few days.

Charley575 · 08-24-2017, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buckeye22

I like 8 divisions of 4 and HEAVY on divisional play. We're talking 30 games against the other 3 in your division, no interleague, 6 against the other 12 in your league. Really promotes rivalries, should help with the whole "weak division producing a losing record" thing (you're playing so many inside your division, one team is bound to take advantange of the weak division and at least have a winning record), and I'm a huge believer that if you can't even win your division you have no business playing for a title. Wild Cards are absolutely stupid.

I don't have a huge problem with 4x8, assuming the 4 champs are the only ones in the playoffs. But we all know MLB won't go for a major reduction in playoff schedule, so 8x4 is the more likely answer. Either that or we're going to get 3rd place teams in the playoffs more often. Yuck.

I agree in general principle, however when you have two divisions of eight teams in each league, one wildcard is ok, since you still are only letting six teams out of 32 in, which is less than 20% of all teams. My experience has been that quite often, the wildcard team is a 90-95 win team. That's ok with me because I consider 90 wins to be the threshold of "good". My goal was to ensure only good teams get in, and to create some additional intrigue around the month of September when sometimes one or more divisions are not competitive.

NoOne · 08-24-2017, 09:38 AM

based on another discussion i may be a bit off on the 25-man = no rust...

however, at the very least, if wrong, you would need a 14-day layoff. Maybe a 9-game series takes that long, plus a day or 2 off between end of reg season/between playoff rounds etc.

i guess worst-case scenario you might see rust on back of Rotation in 2nd round, but based on small sample results, i see no rust at all. i'm pretty sure anytime outside of offseason and injury you do not accrue rust while on an active roster.

playoffs:

1/5th making it should guarantee respectable records in almost all situations... figure .540-.550 being the lower end most years that "make it" with a setup that minimizes opportunities for crap teams to make the playoffs.

small divisions and/or certain custom playoff setups could throw a wrench in that, of course. other motivations may come into play per opinion of individual of course. but anythng that increases % chance of a crap team getting in will do so, regardless of that opinion.

08-22-2017, 08:40 AM	#4
Hrycaj All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,571	I prefer divisions based on geography. It makes more sense in my mind. However, one thing that I do differently is how I handle my playoffs. At seasons end I manually put the teams with the best records into the playoffs. So weak divisions are not represented for a few years at times. I like to write about my fictional leagues. I get great story lines when a team out of a certain division represents that division for the first time in x amount of years. __________________ Click on my signature to read about the great game of baseball in Normington.

08-23-2017, 11:24 AM	#8
NoOne Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,268 Infractions: 1/0 (0)	it's all about the competition for me. i have 3 divisions of 10 teams. 162/9= 18games vs each team in the divisions. still plenty of games vs each other... if it got too small that's when i'd say there's too many teams in the division. no luck from playing a weaker division in an unbalanced schedule or even more likely from a smaller # of inter-league games that are almost guaranteed to be unfair and beneficial to some teams every year. still all sorts of good/bad luck with timing of injuries and other things you cannot control, of course... but, i avoid the things that i do control that introduces this type of impurity to the competition. i want the best teams in the playoffs. 30T and i let 6 into the playoffs. top team gets a bye like NFL -- basically they have no SP fatigue issues their first series, and one less series, which i think is a hefty reward. i try not to ever let more than 1/4th into the playoffs in any league. 6/30 in my setup will never have a team that's ~2g above .500 make the playoffs... mediocrity will not make it. that's important to me. if the "7th" best team was really good.. .well.. tough t&tties to them. don't be the 7th best team... there's no trophy for 7th! also, out of 8-10 teams you should have 3-4 each year vying for at least a wildcard in each division. that will b emore about how the market sizes are distributed and up/down years of the well-endowed budget teams. Last edited by NoOne; 08-23-2017 at 11:27 AM.

08-23-2017, 04:35 PM	#14
NoOne Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,268 Infractions: 1/0 (0)	no rust occurs while on an active 25-man roster. no worries about a bye, if you want one. to the commen about the NFL above, the NHL is the worst... more than half the teams make it! what a joke. at least nfl is closer to 1/3 than 1/2. still too many, i also agree. Last edited by NoOne; 08-23-2017 at 04:38 PM.

08-24-2017, 09:38 AM	#20
NoOne Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,268 Infractions: 1/0 (0)	based on another discussion i may be a bit off on the 25-man = no rust... however, at the very least, if wrong, you would need a 14-day layoff. Maybe a 9-game series takes that long, plus a day or 2 off between end of reg season/between playoff rounds etc. i guess worst-case scenario you might see rust on back of Rotation in 2nd round, but based on small sample results, i see no rust at all. i'm pretty sure anytime outside of offseason and injury you do not accrue rust while on an active roster. playoffs: 1/5th making it should guarantee respectable records in almost all situations... figure .540-.550 being the lower end most years that "make it" with a setup that minimizes opportunities for crap teams to make the playoffs. small divisions and/or certain custom playoff setups could throw a wrench in that, of course. other motivations may come into play per opinion of individual of course. but anythng that increases % chance of a crap team getting in will do so, regardless of that opinion. Last edited by NoOne; 08-24-2017 at 09:45 AM.

08-22-2017, 01:10 AM	#1
AndyHustle Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: Kalamazoo, MI Posts: 33	Fictional Divisional Alignment In my 32 team fictional league, I have had the two leagues set at two, 8 team divisions within each league since the last expansion probably 20 years ago. I'm thinking of switching to 4x4 instead of the 2x8. What are the pros and cons that you guys know of? Currently, the 2x8 seems to keep everybody in the playoff hunt longer which I really like.

08-22-2017, 07:22 AM	#2
cmaug Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 344	one of the consistent complaints about 4-team divisions is that you are more likely to get a crappy team in the playoffs as a division winner

08-22-2017, 08:23 AM	#3
Mr. Marlin All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,274	It's your game, you can play it your way. That is the beauty of OOTP. But this is just my $.02. What appealed to me about baseball in the beginning was that it was a true meritocracy. If you win your league in the regular season you went to the championship. Having the best record in the regular season was all that mattered. That means the regular season matters. In the NBA & NHL, almost a third of all the teams get in the playoffs. The regular season does not means as much. And with many small divisions a bad team can win a bad division as cmaug pointed out. I prefer two leagues with one division each. Every regular season win is meaningful then and if makes you watch the scoreboard every single game.

08-22-2017, 09:52 PM	#5
Le Grande Orange Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Up There Posts: 15,644	Divisions of just four teams are too small for the majors, in my opinion. Six teams strikes me as perhaps the ideal size; five or seven is acceptable (though of course odd numbers made scheduling more difficult). Eight is too many. In spite of the scheduling difficulties it presents, I'd opt for three divisions: 6-5-5 (or variant thereof). YMMV, naturally.

08-22-2017, 10:53 PM	#6
Charley575 All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 544	I currently have the same setup. 2 Leagues, 2 Divisions of 8 in each. For the playoffs, there is 1 wildcard from each league. #1 Seed gets a first round bye. 2nd Seed plays an all home 3 game series against the WC to advance to the league championship, which is set up as a traditional 2-3-2 series. I had tried the 8 divisions of 4 teams in a previous league and hated it. There's always that one garbage division that spits out a "champion" with a losing record. I think I had a 75 win team get in once (162 game season). I swore never again. (Don't get me started about the current NFL setup. That's bull____.) Anyways I'm quite happy with the way I have it set up now.

08-23-2017, 11:51 AM	#9
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 9,626 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	For you folks that say you give the top team a bye, do you feel that team shows any signs of rust once their series begins?

08-23-2017, 07:30 PM	#17
buckeye22 Major Leagues Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 322	I like 8 divisions of 4 and HEAVY on divisional play. We're talking 30 games against the other 3 in your division, no interleague, 6 against the other 12 in your league. Really promotes rivalries, should help with the whole "weak division producing a losing record" thing (you're playing so many inside your division, one team is bound to take advantange of the weak division and at least have a winning record), and I'm a huge believer that if you can't even win your division you have no business playing for a title. Wild Cards are absolutely stupid. I don't have a huge problem with 4x8, assuming the 4 champs are the only ones in the playoffs. But we all know MLB won't go for a major reduction in playoff schedule, so 8x4 is the more likely answer. Either that or we're going to get 3rd place teams in the playoffs more often. Yuck.