Issue with importing historical 2016 (and also: what the heck's up with Jose Altuve?)

[dewelar]

So, I started out wanting to import 2016 Jose Altuve into the league I'd ported over from v17. When I did so, I noticed that several of his ratings were way too low -- e.g., Contact 18, Power *1*, Avoid K's 10 -- so after ReCalc-ing twice without seeing any changes, I decided to create a 2016 historical game. I checked Altuve, and he looked fine there, so I decided to see what would happen if I tried to import the whole 2016 MLB league into mine. I had done this before -- it's how I built the league in the first place -- but this time it wouldn't let me. I got the following error message:

"Error!
The loading of the historical league failed. Please make sure the year is between 1871 and 2016, and the path to the database is correct!"

Thinking this was odd, I then tried to import 2015 MLB as a league. That worked as expected, so I tried to import 2016 again. Lo and behold, it imported just fine! And Jose Altuve looked fine too! So, I can work around this issue, and am reporting it here as well.

Note: After additional experimentation, the crazy ratings for Altuve only appear when importing him using neutralized stats. When importing him using real stats, the ratings appear more like I expected -- Contact 94, Power 66, Avoid K's 78.

More: Okay, after attempting to replicate this, I think I've narrowed down the problem. I can import 2016 if I select Real Stats on which to base current ratings. If I select Neutralized Stats, the import fails.

Still more: Apparently, I can also import the league using Neutralized Stats if I also select "Import complete history up to 2016". However, if I do that, I get the wonky ratings for Altuve again. In fact, everybody's rating is screwy when I import with Neutralized Stats -- Mike Trout has an OVR rating of 21, and nobody in all of MLB has an OVR rating above 27 (Salvador Perez -- a few other catchers at 25 and nobody else above 24). So, apparently the importing problem only occurs if I de-select that and use Neutralized Stats, but there's a much bigger issue going on with Neutralized Stats as well.

Hoo, boy...going back to v17 for now, I guess...

[Spritze]

Neutralized stats do not exist for 2016.

Neutralized Stats most likely will not be updated unless someone volunteers to spend several months making them. When they were broken in 17 nobody reported it for 7 months so they are not overly used.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by Spritze

Neutralized stats do not exist for 2016.

Neutralized Stats most likely will not be updated unless someone volunteers to spend several months making them. When they were broken in 17 nobody reported it for 7 months so they are not overly used.

Dagnab it. When did they break in 17? I guess I missed it because I went back to playing 16 after all the issues with 17. How would one go about making neutralized batting, fielding, and pitching stats if one was to set out to do it? Neutralized Stats work so well with random debut historicals. I can't really use Real Stats because you've got everybody from all eras playing in the game. You need Neutralized Stats in that situation. What Neutralized Stats are missing? I notice a lot of guys from about 2000 forward have issues in this area. I'm not very handy with database stuff, but I can track down who's missing what. Lemme know what I can do.

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

Dagnab it. When did they break in 17? They never worked, it was a simple error on my part, not OOTP. I guess I missed it because I went back to playing 16 after all the issues with 17. How would one go about making neutralized batting, fielding, and pitching stats if one was to set out to do it?. It takes several databases and about one thousand processes Neutralized Stats work so well with random debut historicals. I can't really use Real Stats because you've got everybody from all eras playing in the game. You need Neutralized Stats in that situation. What Neutralized Stats are missing? All of them for 2016 I notice a lot of guys from about 2000 forward have issues in this area. I'm not very handy with database stuff, but I can track down who's missing what. Lemme know what I can do.

Up through 2015 is just fine. Did not bother to put in the many hours needed to create them for 2016 since they were not being used by OOTP17 players. So you can use them for everything other than 2016. Don't include 2016 in your random league and away you go. I spent my time on the Negro and Minor Leagues this year.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by Spritze

Up through 2015 is just fine. Did not bother to put in the many hours needed to create them for 2016 since they were not being used by OOTP17 players. So you can use them for everything other than 2016. Don't include 2016 in your random league and away you go. I spent my time on the Negro and Minor Leagues this year.

Not your fault dude. You're swamped. I wish I'd been informed of this before I dropped $60 CDN on this game though. There was no information about this anywhere before I ordered on Sunday. That's what I'm upset about. The lack of transparency, and that's not your department either. That goes all the way to the top.

In my mind Neutralized Stats is the only way to go with random debut historicals because of the whole everyone from every era in one league. Deadballers Shoeless Joe Jackson (326 HR so far in 17 seasons) and Home Run Baker (297 HR so far in 12 seasons) have hit with solid power in my random debut in OOTP16. That would never have happened with Real Stats. This is a gamebreaker for me, and it's not your fault. You need some help if this feature of the game is going to continue to be a feature of the game. What can I do to help? What can others do? I'm sure I'm not the only one that uses Neutralized Stats.

[Spritze]

You may be the only one. That is why it was dropped. Seven months is a long time with no one playing even one single game with neutralized stats. It took 3 seconds to fix the error once it was mentioned. I had just sent the wrong file to OOTP on accident. The correct one was on my desktop.

OOTP 18 still has one more usable neutered year in it than 17 did.

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

Not your fault dude. You're swamped. I wish I'd been informed of this before I dropped $60 CDN on this game though. There was no information about this anywhere before I ordered on Sunday. That's what I'm upset about. The lack of transparency, and that's not your department either. That goes all the way to the top.

In my mind Neutralized Stats is the only way to go with random debut historicals because of the whole everyone from every era in one league. Deadballers Shoeless Joe Jackson (326 HR so far in 17 seasons) and Home Run Baker (297 HR so far in 12 seasons) have hit with solid power in my random debut in OOTP16. That would never have happened with Real Stats. This is a gamebreaker for me, and it's not your fault. You need some help if this feature of the game is going to continue to be a feature of the game. What can I do to help? What can others do? I'm sure I'm not the only one that uses Neutralized Stats.

At the moment all you can do is if you see errors pre-2016 report them. You mentioned after 2000 something was off but were not specific. No one has ever reported anything as off in those years. I check everything out that gets reported and fix it if something is wrong.

[Spritze]

BTW: A form of Neutralization is built into random debut leagues automagically.

[dewelar]

Originally Posted by Spritze

Neutralized stats do not exist for 2016.

Oh, blitznak.

Originally Posted by Spritze

You may be the only one.

Only two, then?

Originally Posted by Spritze

BTW: A form of Neutralization is built into random debut leagues automagically.

Well, that's something at least. My current league isn't random debut, but a fictional league using the best individual season of a large number real players (which is why I wanted 2016 Altuve). I suppose I could create the 2016 stats myself, as the number of 2016 players I'll be using is probably fairly small. To that end, do you (or anybody) know if bb-ref still has its normalization feature? I can't find it since they did their most recent redesign.

[Spritze]

Since BBref's site update my computer locks up when I try to navigate their new phone friendly site so I can't give you a clue.

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by dewelar

Only two, then? So Far

Seems like last year again. Nobody has noticed it is gone yet except the two of you. Maybe its time has passed. Like Romeo and Juliet or Godzilla and Kong. Men in rubber monster costumes are not state of the art no more.

[JaBurns]

Make it at least three using neutralized stats.

[David Watts]

This whole issue makes me wish I would have looked at Neutralized stats during my 17 use. Of course, most of my early play with 17 was trying to get historical minors to work, so I was using real stats.

All that being said, the last random debut I was running right before I purchased 18 was one using real stats and 3 year recalc. After 4 seasons and 2 months into the 5th season, the guy sitting 2nd in career home runs was Dave Brain. Brain had some pop in real life for the time period he played in, but that amounted to 27 career bombs. In my game he was hitting 30+ bombs a year.

[Spritze]

I'd need to know what year were playing to comment or check anything. If your playing random steroid era the same player will have very different stats than in the deadball era.

In his real era the Brain was in the top 10 of HR's many years but keep in mind that many more old-time HR's were inside the park than what happens now but OOTP can not know that from the stats it has at its disposal. They are all out of the park as far as it knows.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Spritze

I'd need to know what year were playing to comment or check anything. If your playing random steroid era the same player will have very different stats than in the deadball era.

In his real era the Brain was in the top 10 of HR's many years but keep in mind that many more old-time HR's were inside the park than what happens now but OOTP can not know that from the stats it has at its disposal. They are all out of the park as far as it knows.

The random debut Brain was playing in perpetual 1984. By that I mean, I started the league in 1984 and reset it to 1984 modifiers prior to each season. Jose Abreu was the only cat with more home runs after 4+ seasons.

Didn't really want you to check anything. I was just saying that Brain was hitting home runs at a good clip in a random debut, even though I was using real stats.

[dewelar]

Originally Posted by Spritze

Since BBref's site update my computer locks up when I try to navigate their new phone friendly site so I can't give you a clue.

Yeesh. Well, I feel fairly comfortable eyeballing things if necessary. It just sucks that it seems to be necessary.

Originally Posted by Spritze

In his real era the Brain was in the top 10 of HR's many years but keep in mind that many more old-time HR's were inside the park than what happens now but OOTP can not know that from the stats it has at its disposal. They are all out of the park as far as it knows.

True enough. I always adjust pre-Ruth players to account for this. Especially in the 19th century, home runs were more indicative of speed than power (some parks didn't even HAVE fences you could hit balls over), and triples about half-and-half rather than almost all speed like more recent eras.

Originally Posted by David Watts

I was just saying that Brain was hitting home runs at a good clip in a random debut, even though I was using real stats.

That's...oddly comforting, actually.

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by David Watts

The random debut Brain was playing in perpetual 1984. By that I mean, I started the league in 1984 and reset it to 1984 modifiers prior to each season. Jose Abreu was the only cat with more home runs after 4+ seasons.

Didn't really want you to check anything. I was just saying that Brain was hitting home runs at a good clip in a random debut, even though I was using real stats.

24.5 to 35 HR's would be the expected range for Brain in 162 games in 1984 so 30 per year seems about right.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by Spritze

You may be the only one. That is why it was dropped. Seven months is a long time with no one playing even one single game with neutralized stats. It took 3 seconds to fix the error once it was mentioned. I had just sent the wrong file to OOTP on accident. The correct one was on my desktop.

OOTP 18 still has one more usable neutered year in it than 17 did.

I'm sure many of us play with neutralized stats. When you and Garlon created the original neutralized stats database, you had many devotees and enthusiastic neutralized stats players following along or have you forgotten? Did we suddenly decide we preferred to watch Ted Williams become a shell of his usual beastly self from 1943-1945 and 1952-1953 because his gaps in those seasons don't get filled in when using Real Stats like they do when using Neutralized Stats? I highly doubt it.

Where I may be alone is that I may be the only one who pokes around in the Real Life Stats > Neutralized Batting, Pitching and Fielding stat tabs of players entering my games via the draft, looking for gaps and errors but I'm far from the only one who plays the game this way. I think most Neutralized Stats players just hit the option in the game setup, and assume that everything will work tickety boo and don't give it a second thought as to whether or not the database actually has stats for the seasons they're interested in playing. I'm sure anyone who plays with Neutralized Stats would be quite upset to learn that guys like Francisco Lindor, Carlos Correa, Corey Seager, Trevor Story, Michael Fulmer etc are gonna be...well...neutered in their Neutralized Stats games because there are no Neutralized Stats to go off of for the majority of their (so far) short careers.

I'll get on the pre-2016 Neutralized Stats as soon as I can. Have to gather together all the guys who I deleted in 16 and brought in Spritze database replacements for because the Spritzeified guys were done how they should have been done and made excellent replacements. In the back of my mind, I do wonder if I'm wasting my time though, because it sounds like a design decision has been made to stop making Neutralized Stats part of the game. I know that BB-Ref's Neutralized Stats function is not working right now, so that may be a part of it. I understand it's very time consuming and it may have been decided that because Neutralized Stats and Real Historical Minor Leagues are incompatible that it's time to let Neutralized Stats go the way of the dodo. Doesn't mean I have to be happy about it.

Please understand that this is not a shot against you. I respect and admire everything that you have put into OOTP over the years (and have repeatedly expressed that in the past and will continue to do so), and if I had 1/1000th of your database skills, I'd be doing all I could do to save this feature. Alas, I don't. So I'll have to stick to reporting pre-2016 gaps and errors, and hope that this feature stays around and continues to save Mr. Williams (and other not so prominent players and their gaps) from his exile to the bench for five seasons of the 22 season duration of his career.

[David Watts]

What would be incredible is if there was a way for OOTP to some how gauge the big picture and not destroy a stud player for war years, injury years etc, but still recalc the scrub life at the same time. In otherwords, if a guys a stud, don't make bad. Ugh, not even sure if something like that would be feasible though. I love one year recalc for the ups and downs it provides the everyday non injured bloke. I just wish I didn't have to deal with what it does to a Chris Carpenter or a Ken Griffey Jr. Heck, even if the development engine just took over it would be cool.

I'm currently playing 1952 with 18 using complete minors. I'm 40+ games into the season and Ted Williams has played 4 games for the Red Sox, starting 2. This is using real stats. This is just an example, not a complaint.

Of course, if something like this was possible, it would have to be an option. If using real transactions/real lineups, I probably want the drought years. If replaying single seasons, I probably want the bad years as well.

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

I'm sure many of us play with neutralized stats. When you and Garlon created the original neutralized stats database, you had many devotees and enthusiastic neutralized stats players following along or have you forgotten? They seem to have mostly disappeared. Did we suddenly decide we preferred to watch Ted Williams become a shell of his usual beastly self from 1943-1945 and 1952-1953 because his gaps in those seasons don't get filled in when using Real Stats like they do when using Neutralized Stats? I highly doubt it.

Where I may be alone is that I may be the only one who pokes around in the Real Life Stats > Neutralized Batting, Pitching and Fielding stat tabs of players entering my games via the draft, looking for gaps and errors but I'm far from the only one who plays the game this way. I think most Neutralized Stats players just hit the option in the game setup, and assume that everything will work tickety boo and don't give it a second thought as to whether or not the database actually has stats for the seasons they're interested in playing. I'm sure anyone who plays with Neutralized Stats would be quite upset to learn that guys like Francisco Lindor, Carlos Correa, Corey Seager, Trevor Story, Michael Fulmer etc are gonna be...well...neutered in their Neutralized Stats games because there are no Neutralized Stats to go off of for the majority of their (so far) short careers.

I'll get on the pre-2016 Neutralized Stats as soon as I can. Have to gather together all the guys who I deleted in 16 and brought in Spritze database replacements for because the Spritzeified guys were done how they should have been done and made excellent replacements. In the back of my mind, I do wonder if I'm wasting my time though, because it sounds like a design decision has been made to stop making Neutralized Stats part of the game. I know that BB-Ref's Neutralized Stats function is not working right now, so that may be a part of it. OOTP does not use this at all I understand it's very time consuming and it may have been decided that because Neutralized Stats and Real Historical Minor Leagues are incompatible that it's time to let Neutralized Stats go the way of the dodo. Naw, I just did not have the time Doesn't mean I have to be happy about it.

Please understand that this is not a shot against you. I respect and admire everything that you have put into OOTP over the years (and have repeatedly expressed that in the past and will continue to do so), and if I had 1/1000th of your database skills, I'd be doing all I could do to save this feature. Alas, I don't. So I'll have to stick to reporting pre-2016 gaps and errors, and hope that this feature stays around and continues to save Mr. Williams (and other not so prominent players and their gaps) from his exile to the bench for five seasons of the 22 season duration of his career.

Defuncting Newts was not an OOTP decision. It was mine alone. Time constraints. Finishing up the MiLB and adding the NeL took many more hours than you could imagine.

The WWII Williams is still in the db as is everyone else. Only 2016 is not present.

You will notice the feature still exists. In reality until players have 3 years of actual data they won't neutralize properly anyway. So in OOTP17 you would have only gotten good newts 1871-2013.