Disappointed with 19th century expansion

BaseballMan · 03-22-2017, 06:17 PM

Hope this isn't taken as a i'm done with ootp rant because its not.
Everybody has things they like or don't like about the game and this is one is disappointing to me.

Looks like they have made it only possible to use the historical expansion with the game. This is disappointing to say the least. Following a fictional historical expansion for 19th century leagues is easy but some of us would like the real teams. I can understand that ootp may not have the time to improve it but i don't like that you are basically forced to follow ootp's version of 19th century play. At least leave the option to do it yourself as we could before.

I believe i have shown from my 1871 thread that it is possible to have the real expansion from 1871-1899. I believe the same thing could be done with the Negro leagues and Federal League.

I can use ootp17 to play up to 1899 and then use ootp 18 so i'm not giving a i'm done with ootp rant but it is as i said disappointing.
Its great to have Negro leagues and 19th century players in the game but it seems like more work is needed. Having 4 AL teams in a 1871 historic league is an easy solution but it doesn't feel right.

Spritze · 03-22-2017, 06:26 PM

OOTP needs to stop with the unhistorical historical 19th century mess. It ought to be real. No reason for it not to be anymore.

BaseballMan · 03-22-2017, 06:44 PM

I agree.
To be honest it should not be listed under historical setup as it is really a fictional league using real historic players that converts to a real historic league in 1900.

Its not that it cant be done it just takes a little effort. It took me some time to make a list of actual roster transactions. I did have to estimate on some of them but at least the players went to the correct teams.
Problem is ootp wants to get everything from a database and you cant do that with the 19th century play. You have to look at the teams in the league,
the schedule, when teams folded etc. You cant just pick a transaction date for a player when there is no date listed. You have to look at the teams he played for so you don't have him traded before a team played a game. Some teams started later in the season.
Yes this takes some effort but i believe my 1871-? thread has shown that it can be done. Sure it may be a little chaotic but thats what the real National Association and early National League was like.
It wasn't a a perfect 8 team league.
Not saying take the easy option out as some people don't mind the fictional expansion. i just think people who want real and accurtate 19th century play should not be forced to use the 19th century fictional expansion.

Erosa · 03-22-2017, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

I agree.
To be honest it should not be listed under historical setup as it is really a fictional league using real historic players that converts to a real historic league in 1900.

Its not that it cant be done it just takes a little effort. It took me some time to make a list of actual roster transactions. I did have to estimate on some of them but at least the players went to the correct teams.
Problem is ootp wants to get everything from a database and you cant do that with the 19th century play. You have to look at the teams in the league,
the schedule, when teams folded etc. You cant just pick a transaction date for a player when there is no date listed. You have to look at the teams he played for so you don't have him traded before a team played a game. Some teams started later in the season.
Yes this takes some effort but i believe my 1871-? thread has shown that it can be done. Sure it may be a little chaotic but thats what the real National Association and early National League was like.
It wasn't a a perfect 8 team league.
Not saying take the easy option out as some people don't mind the fictional expansion. i just think people who want real and accurtate 19th century play should not be forced to use the 19th century fictional expansion.

Very disappointing indeed. Perhaps now that the Federal League and Negro Leagues are finally a reality, next edition might see the 19th century get a second look. If we request it enough, perhaps we can draw some attention to it.

Spritze · 03-22-2017, 10:15 PM

With all we learned from taming the Negro Leagues that is also applicable to the 19th century a fairly consistent historical 19th century oughta be doable. It won't be perfectly exact but would be 10,572 times better than now.

swampdragon · 03-22-2017, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Hope this isn't taken as a i'm done with ootp rant because its not.
Everybody has things they like or don't like about the game and this is one is disappointing to me.

Looks like they have made it only possible to use the historical expansion with the game. This is disappointing to say the least. Following a fictional historical expansion for 19th century leagues is easy but some of us would like the real teams. I can understand that ootp may not have the time to improve it but i don't like that you are basically forced to follow ootp's version of 19th century play. At least leave the option to do it yourself as we could before.

I believe i have shown from my 1871 thread that it is possible to have the real expansion from 1871-1899. I believe the same thing could be done with the Negro leagues and Federal League.

I can use ootp17 to play up to 1899 and then use ootp 18 so i'm not giving a i'm done with ootp rant but it is as i said disappointing.
Its great to have Negro leagues and 19th century players in the game but it seems like more work is needed. Having 4 AL teams in a 1871 historic league is an easy solution but it doesn't feel right.

What have they done that keeps you from being able to do what you did last year? I've started an 1871 game while waiting for defensive imports to be fixed so I can start my main project. I deleted the AL after moving all of the teams to the NL, added the 9th team, and imported the schedule, all with no problem. I assume I can manually expand and contract teams through 1881, at which time I have to either add a subleague or make the AA a minor league. What have they changed that means I can't do this?

Edit: I do 100% agree with you that we should have 19th century support by now. I suppose it must be harder than it looks to go back and forth between one and two subleagues. But if you make the American Association a minor league as they did with the Federal League, you'd just have to add a subleague one time in 1901, and you'd never have to subtract one.

BaseballMan · 03-23-2017, 05:01 AM

Well if you do it manually then doesn't the game add it's teams back the next year. Plus you have to manually add the rookies to the correct teams. The way I was doing it before the correct teams would show up and the rookies would go to the correct teams automatically.
The players all come from the same database so I don't understand why this couldn't be improved by now.

BaseballMan · 03-23-2017, 06:36 AM

There is only 2 years that there were 3 leagues.
In the other years the American Association could be a pre American League.
When it's only the National League just have the top 2 teams play for the championship or
just let the top team win the championship.

I was able to get automatic expansion with correct rookies in ootp17. I had to manually release and sign players from a list I created but I think that could be done automatically.
If I can run a league with close to accurate teams and rosters for 1871-1899, it shouldn't be that hard for ootp to do it. Just doesn't seem like they are listening or want to improve that part of the game.

BaseballMan · 03-23-2017, 06:46 AM

In previous versions you could get the correct teams and rookies on correct teams by editing the batting, pitching, fielding and teams csv files and changing all league abbreviations to AL or NL. That's all it took.
Now that's gone and im guessing everything is in the database file.
I suppose the same thing could be done to that file but that's not something I would know.

But if they could do that or maybe make 2 databases it might help.
Then we could help out by providing a list of transactions, league settings etc.

spleen1015 · 03-23-2017, 07:22 AM

I think it is a supply vs demand situation. How many folks play 19th century? If there's not enough people playing that way, then they should be working on other things.

I do agree with you that more could be done with it. I have briefly looked at your thread, so I don't know the work that went into it, but I assume programming it will be a big undertaking.

I went through the National Association, National League, American Association & Western League (Becomes AL in 1900) and made a spreadsheet with all of the team movement, keeping track of the details. The leagues were so volatile back then. There was tons of team movement let alone player movement.

How much of the 19th century do you want them to cover? I went with these 4 leagues because they are ultimately where many of the current teams started.

Spritze · 03-23-2017, 08:31 AM

I for one no longer play 19th century and I suspect most who tried abandoned it as well.

It was not originally announced as fictional but that is what it is.

Padreman · 03-23-2017, 10:12 AM

Well for what it's worth anything that's 19 century I don't even consider baseball it's more like a glorified cricket

BaseballMan · 03-23-2017, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spleen1015

I think it is a supply vs demand situation. How many folks play 19th century? If there's not enough people playing that way, then they should be working on other things.

I do agree with you that more could be done with it. I have briefly looked at your thread, so I don't know the work that went into it, but I assume programming it will be a big undertaking.

I went through the National Association, National League, American Association & Western League (Becomes AL in 1900) and made a spreadsheet with all of the team movement, keeping track of the details. The leagues were so volatile back then. There was tons of team movement let alone player movement.

How much of the 19th century do you want them to cover? I went with these 4 leagues because they are ultimately where many of the current teams started.

I agree it's probably sup ply and demand but not much as been done in awhile. I'm guessing a few have given up because not much effort has been made to improve it. That's why I say disappointed because I don't want it to come across as a user that didn't get his way. As I do feel ootp 18 is great game so far.

I'm not sure how much programming is really needed other than editing the database to get the correct teams and rookies to go to their correct teams
. As for the trades I would suggest just keeping a simple release and sign.
I believe that could be done in the transaction file. The problem with using 19th century transactions is that you can't just estimate dates when there is no data. You have to look at the team's in the league since teams changed during the season.
I had to do the trades and manually and I had to use human managers to prevent the ai from signing the wrong players. But if the transaction file was edited to match the team's I believe this could be done automatically.
But in any case they could at least allow the reall historical expansion. Even if they can't get the correct transactions at this time.

spleen1015 · 03-23-2017, 10:27 AM

Yeah, this is one of the few features of OOTP that are really good ideas but need a bit of polish.

After spending some time looking at how those 4 leagues evolved, I've got a huge interest in learning more about 19th Century baseball. I would like to learn more about the players, etc. I have my eye on a few books. Someone mentioned watching the Ken Burns documentary on Monday while we were waiting for the game to drop. I started watching it and when it got to the Players League, I started thinking about how to make it work in OOTP.

So much happened back then, its all very interesting.

BaseballMan · 03-23-2017, 02:25 PM

Some good books i've read are
"Baseball in the Garden of Eden" John Thorn
'Baseball the Early years" Harold Seymour
"The Rank and File of 19th Century Major league Baseball" David Nemec
"Fifty Nine in 84" and "The Summer of Beer and Whiskey" Edward Achorn
Bill James "Baseball Abstract" has some information as well.

swampdragon · 03-23-2017, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Well if you do it manually then doesn't the game add it's teams back the next year. Plus you have to manually add the rookies to the correct teams. The way I was doing it before the correct teams would show up and the rookies would go to the correct teams automatically.
The players all come from the same database so I don't understand why this couldn't be improved by now.

It hasn't changed the structure back unless you check automatic expansion. I don't like trying to edit files or databases, so I'll probably just go back to 1901 unless by some miracle 19th century support is added. OOTP is a great game, and I'm not going to invite frustration by playing an unsupported version of the 19th century.

BaseballMan · 03-23-2017, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swampdragon

It hasn't changed the structure back unless you check automatic expansion. I don't like trying to edit files or databases, so I'll probably just go back to 1901 unless by some miracle 19th century support is added. OOTP is a great game, and I'm not going to invite frustration by playing an unsupported version of the 19th century.

Yeah unfortunately it will if you have automatic expansion on and doesn't if you do it manually.
Which kinda defeats the point of having correct teams if it can't be done automatically anymore.
The one solution i have for me is that i can still use ootp 17 up to 1900 and then convert to ootp 18.
It should be easier for me the next time i start in 1871 as i did most of the work in my current sim. Even easier if i don't do historical transactions.
It probably took me 3 years to get my transaction list to match up with the teams. Took me from April to around christmas to sim from 1871-1900. But thats because i was looking at every team's opening day rosters, when transactions could happen in which there was not much real life data.
I found things that worked and areas that still need improving. It was a lot of work for someone who isnt a computer programmer but i can also say i totally enjoyed it. I think i probably enjoy it more than other historical leagues ive ran because to me it felt more like the struggle of baseball beginnings. I am up to 1930 and the history of the league feels more realistic to me.

BaseballMan · 03-27-2017, 07:56 PM

So i did some some more thinking on 19th century play and i think i am either gonna have to go back to ootp 17 for 19th century play and then convert to 18 when i get to 1900.
I thought i could just copy the rookies to my spreadsheet and then sign them to the correct teams. I could handle expansion manually.

Its not as difficult as the first time cause i know i can go by the spreadsheet. Heck i can even copy all the historical managers i have created. Though at this point they are just cosmetic.

Problem is i can not get park data. I was hoping i could copy for each season but it doesnt seem to work. I have 1871 start league from ootp 17 but i dont want the expansion teams to have fictional ballparks.

swampdragon · 03-27-2017, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

So i did some some more thinking on 19th century play and i think i am either gonna have to go back to ootp 17 for 19th century play and then convert to 18 when i get to 1900.
I thought i could just copy the rookies to my spreadsheet and then sign them to the correct teams. I could handle expansion manually.

Its not as difficult as the first time cause i know i can go by the spreadsheet. Heck i can even copy all the historical managers i have created. Though at this point they are just cosmetic.

Problem is i can not get park data. I was hoping i could copy for each season but it doesnt seem to work. I have 1871 start league from ootp 17 but i dont want the expansion teams to have fictional ballparks.

I would get park factors from Seamheads.

BaseballMan · 03-27-2017, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swampdragon

I would get park factors from Seamheads.

Thanks.
Do i need to input the data for the parks or do i download a file to my game
folder?

03-22-2017, 06:17 PM	#1
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,647	Disappointed with 19th century expansion Hope this isn't taken as a i'm done with ootp rant because its not. Everybody has things they like or don't like about the game and this is one is disappointing to me. Looks like they have made it only possible to use the historical expansion with the game. This is disappointing to say the least. Following a fictional historical expansion for 19th century leagues is easy but some of us would like the real teams. I can understand that ootp may not have the time to improve it but i don't like that you are basically forced to follow ootp's version of 19th century play. At least leave the option to do it yourself as we could before. I believe i have shown from my 1871 thread that it is possible to have the real expansion from 1871-1899. I believe the same thing could be done with the Negro leagues and Federal League. I can use ootp17 to play up to 1899 and then use ootp 18 so i'm not giving a i'm done with ootp rant but it is as i said disappointing. Its great to have Negro leagues and 19th century players in the game but it seems like more work is needed. Having 4 AL teams in a 1871 historic league is an easy solution but it doesn't feel right.

03-22-2017, 06:26 PM	#2
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	OOTP needs to stop with the unhistorical historical 19th century mess. It ought to be real. No reason for it not to be anymore. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

03-22-2017, 10:15 PM	#5
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	With all we learned from taming the Negro Leagues that is also applicable to the 19th century a fairly consistent historical 19th century oughta be doable. It won't be perfectly exact but would be 10,572 times better than now. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

03-23-2017, 08:31 AM	#11
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	I for one no longer play 19th century and I suspect most who tried abandoned it as well. It was not originally announced as fictional but that is what it is. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

03-23-2017, 10:12 AM	#12
Padreman Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2013 Location: Tijuana, Baja California, Mexico (formally San Diego, CA.) Posts: 4,131	Well for what it's worth anything that's 19 century I don't even consider baseball it's more like a glorified cricket __________________ Chargers= Despicable Traitors

03-22-2017, 06:44 PM	#3
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,647	I agree. To be honest it should not be listed under historical setup as it is really a fictional league using real historic players that converts to a real historic league in 1900. Its not that it cant be done it just takes a little effort. It took me some time to make a list of actual roster transactions. I did have to estimate on some of them but at least the players went to the correct teams. Problem is ootp wants to get everything from a database and you cant do that with the 19th century play. You have to look at the teams in the league, the schedule, when teams folded etc. You cant just pick a transaction date for a player when there is no date listed. You have to look at the teams he played for so you don't have him traded before a team played a game. Some teams started later in the season. Yes this takes some effort but i believe my 1871-? thread has shown that it can be done. Sure it may be a little chaotic but thats what the real National Association and early National League was like. It wasn't a a perfect 8 team league. Not saying take the easy option out as some people don't mind the fictional expansion. i just think people who want real and accurtate 19th century play should not be forced to use the 19th century fictional expansion.

03-23-2017, 05:01 AM	#7
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,647	Well if you do it manually then doesn't the game add it's teams back the next year. Plus you have to manually add the rookies to the correct teams. The way I was doing it before the correct teams would show up and the rookies would go to the correct teams automatically. The players all come from the same database so I don't understand why this couldn't be improved by now.

03-23-2017, 06:36 AM	#8
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,647	There is only 2 years that there were 3 leagues. In the other years the American Association could be a pre American League. When it's only the National League just have the top 2 teams play for the championship or just let the top team win the championship. I was able to get automatic expansion with correct rookies in ootp17. I had to manually release and sign players from a list I created but I think that could be done automatically. If I can run a league with close to accurate teams and rosters for 1871-1899, it shouldn't be that hard for ootp to do it. Just doesn't seem like they are listening or want to improve that part of the game.

03-23-2017, 06:46 AM	#9
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,647	In previous versions you could get the correct teams and rookies on correct teams by editing the batting, pitching, fielding and teams csv files and changing all league abbreviations to AL or NL. That's all it took. Now that's gone and im guessing everything is in the database file. I suppose the same thing could be done to that file but that's not something I would know. But if they could do that or maybe make 2 databases it might help. Then we could help out by providing a list of transactions, league settings etc.

03-23-2017, 07:22 AM	#10
spleen1015 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,008	I think it is a supply vs demand situation. How many folks play 19th century? If there's not enough people playing that way, then they should be working on other things. I do agree with you that more could be done with it. I have briefly looked at your thread, so I don't know the work that went into it, but I assume programming it will be a big undertaking. I went through the National Association, National League, American Association & Western League (Becomes AL in 1900) and made a spreadsheet with all of the team movement, keeping track of the details. The leagues were so volatile back then. There was tons of team movement let alone player movement. How much of the 19th century do you want them to cover? I went with these 4 leagues because they are ultimately where many of the current teams started.

03-23-2017, 10:27 AM	#14
spleen1015 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,008	Yeah, this is one of the few features of OOTP that are really good ideas but need a bit of polish. After spending some time looking at how those 4 leagues evolved, I've got a huge interest in learning more about 19th Century baseball. I would like to learn more about the players, etc. I have my eye on a few books. Someone mentioned watching the Ken Burns documentary on Monday while we were waiting for the game to drop. I started watching it and when it got to the Players League, I started thinking about how to make it work in OOTP. So much happened back then, its all very interesting.

03-23-2017, 02:25 PM	#15
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,647	Some good books i've read are "Baseball in the Garden of Eden" John Thorn 'Baseball the Early years" Harold Seymour "The Rank and File of 19th Century Major league Baseball" David Nemec "Fifty Nine in 84" and "The Summer of Beer and Whiskey" Edward Achorn Bill James "Baseball Abstract" has some information as well.

03-27-2017, 07:56 PM	#18
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,647	So i did some some more thinking on 19th century play and i think i am either gonna have to go back to ootp 17 for 19th century play and then convert to 18 when i get to 1900. I thought i could just copy the rookies to my spreadsheet and then sign them to the correct teams. I could handle expansion manually. Its not as difficult as the first time cause i know i can go by the spreadsheet. Heck i can even copy all the historical managers i have created. Though at this point they are just cosmetic. Problem is i can not get park data. I was hoping i could copy for each season but it doesnt seem to work. I have 1871 start league from ootp 17 but i dont want the expansion teams to have fictional ballparks.