Something About AI Manager Pitcher Use is Driving Me Crazy

Charley575 · 12-30-2016, 01:49 PM

I used to sim out the games but lately I've been watching them play out. I've noticed something wonky about the way the AI manager uses relief pitchers that is making me nuts.
Example situation:
Start of the 8th inning. We are up 2-1. Starter has pitched 7 great innings. All the middle and back of bullpen guys are rested and available. 3, 4, and 5 hitters due up. It's L-L-R. AI manager goes to the 8th inning setup man, who is a righty. Ok, he's the 8th inning guy so no argument there. 3 hitter grounds out 4-3. 4 hitter comes up, New Pitcher. AI manager goes to lefty middle relief guy. Why? Why bring the setup man in to face one lefty hitter and then pull him for a lefty-lefty matchup with the next hitter after he gets the first hitter out? Now in this case the 4 hitter singles and the setup man is spent, so now we go to the 7th inning guy, a righty, for the 5 hitter. 5 hitter retired F7. Opponent manager inserts lefty PH, who strikes out looking. The result is ok, but the inning has been completely mismanaged, no? If you want the lefty-lefty matchup, you start with the lefty and go to the 8th inning righty setup man when the right handed hitting 5 hitter comes up. Or is their some new fangled sabermetric logic that I have yet to be enlightened to?

Thoughts?

David Watts · 12-30-2016, 02:00 PM

My thought. Play 50's, 60 and 70's ball and tell yourself lefty specialists, 7th inning guys and 8th inning guys were never invented

I'm joking....well kind of

Now let the serious discussion commence.

RchW · 12-30-2016, 02:09 PM

My impression, and it drives me crazy too, is that the AI does not pay any attention to how I categorize my RP when simming. So, what I think is my set up group regularly get used too early or too late. The most annoying thing is the AI will often decide that pitcher X and sometimes pitcher Y are not part of the bullpen and will pitch the remaining guys to exhaustion based on the above flawed evaluation. This includes closer usage. Nothing beats the frustration of seeing my 3rd choice as closer blowing a save and/or losing a game while my designated closer sits for the 3rd day in a row. Even forced roles seem to have little effect.

All I want for XVIII is some assurance that "my" RP roles will be recognized and used by the AI as set. If I lose it's on me. I can take it.

pstrickert · 12-30-2016, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charley575

I used to sim out the games but lately I've been watching them play out. I've noticed something wonky about the way the AI manager uses relief pitchers that is making me nuts.
Example situation:
Start of the 8th inning. We are up 2-1. Starter has pitched 7 great innings. All the middle and back of bullpen guys are rested and available. 3, 4, and 5 hitters due up. It's L-L-R. AI manager goes to the 8th inning setup man, who is a righty. Ok, he's the 8th inning guy so no argument there. 3 hitter grounds out 4-3. 4 hitter comes up, New Pitcher. AI manager goes to lefty middle relief guy. Why? Why bring the setup man in to face one lefty hitter and then pull him for a lefty-lefty matchup with the next hitter after he gets the first hitter out? Now in this case the 4 hitter singles and the setup man is spent, so now we go to the 7th inning guy, a righty, for the 5 hitter. 5 hitter retired F7. Opponent manager inserts lefty PH, who strikes out looking. The result is ok, but the inning has been completely mismanaged, no? If you want the lefty-lefty matchup, you start with the lefty and go to the 8th inning righty setup man when the right handed hitting 5 hitter comes up. Or is their some new fangled sabermetric logic that I have yet to be enlightened to?

Thoughts?

My sentiments exactly. The last couple of years, I've raised this issue during beta, providing numerous examples. The response, IIRC, was that it's not easy to get it right, since there are many different factors involved. I know the AI will never be perfect. But some of the pitcher misuse needs to be fixed.

NoOne · 12-30-2016, 03:29 PM

the roles defintiely influence the AI - no fear there... i am certain of that becuase of what i do in the playoffs with my bullpen... i was sick of seeing the bottom 2 guys used more than they needed to so i set them to unspecified roles. that seemed to do the trick. now, like clockwork, my top 3-5 guys get all the work in the playoffs.

there's likely a few more thngs going into that AI decision than just the depth chart and game situation. the ai likely has processes that help avoid tired bullpens with compact schedules. anytime it deviates, there is a cause for why it made that decisions (not saying it's a good decision or bad - not important to this context of the paragraph). they definitely need to continue to tweak the AI for the pen...

a basic decision tree is very simple thing for this situation but... i had to remove this paragraph because this makes sense:

i think the bigger problem is how to incorporate something like "high leverage" and "use more/less" and coaching preferences into the loop of logic. using a pecking order, checking fatigue and possibly the next X-days on schedul until a day off is not complex to handle and use for the pen despite what it sounds like... that other crap influencing it is the difficult part and i'd wager that "extra stuff" cause for bad ai decisions (not just preference, but stupid decisions, hands-down). that extra stuff gives more realism, though, so i am not saying it should be removed but maybe simplified in it's application... maybe 3-4 base decisions trees for overall bullpen use for certain types of underlying factors (the coach? more?), then adjust for other factors in the loop of logic that are more easily incorporated and applied well.

that, instead of all outside factors influence 1 decisions tree (or howewver you wish to visualize the logic). multiple bullpen decisions trees for various coach types as a base (or other factors if a better foundation) and then further manipulation within each of those exclusive decisions trees based on use more/less, higher leverage etc.. i think if they layered it differently it should handle all the qualifications better.

everything you do to make a decision, the ai has access to the same info - anytihgn relevant to the game.. some humans will use irrelevant things, lol. the ai can make decisions just like you do, if coded properly (obviously i mean 1 strategy and some variants of it, and not all of our indidivdual wishes as to how it should work). they just need to approach it differently if thy say it's "too hard"... it's just being attacked in the wrong way or wrong order... if it doens't work, stop doing it and do it differently. quit forcing the square peg through the round hole, lenny!

12-30-2016, 01:49 PM	#1
Charley575 All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 544	Something About AI Manager Pitcher Use is Driving Me Crazy I used to sim out the games but lately I've been watching them play out. I've noticed something wonky about the way the AI manager uses relief pitchers that is making me nuts. Example situation: Start of the 8th inning. We are up 2-1. Starter has pitched 7 great innings. All the middle and back of bullpen guys are rested and available. 3, 4, and 5 hitters due up. It's L-L-R. AI manager goes to the 8th inning setup man, who is a righty. Ok, he's the 8th inning guy so no argument there. 3 hitter grounds out 4-3. 4 hitter comes up, New Pitcher. AI manager goes to lefty middle relief guy. Why? Why bring the setup man in to face one lefty hitter and then pull him for a lefty-lefty matchup with the next hitter after he gets the first hitter out? Now in this case the 4 hitter singles and the setup man is spent, so now we go to the 7th inning guy, a righty, for the 5 hitter. 5 hitter retired F7. Opponent manager inserts lefty PH, who strikes out looking. The result is ok, but the inning has been completely mismanaged, no? If you want the lefty-lefty matchup, you start with the lefty and go to the 8th inning righty setup man when the right handed hitting 5 hitter comes up. Or is their some new fangled sabermetric logic that I have yet to be enlightened to? Thoughts?

12-30-2016, 02:09 PM	#3
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	My impression, and it drives me crazy too, is that the AI does not pay any attention to how I categorize my RP when simming. So, what I think is my set up group regularly get used too early or too late. The most annoying thing is the AI will often decide that pitcher X and sometimes pitcher Y are not part of the bullpen and will pitch the remaining guys to exhaustion based on the above flawed evaluation. This includes closer usage. Nothing beats the frustration of seeing my 3rd choice as closer blowing a save and/or losing a game while my designated closer sits for the 3rd day in a row. Even forced roles seem to have little effect. All I want for XVIII is some assurance that "my" RP roles will be recognized and used by the AI as set. If I lose it's on me. I can take it. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

12-30-2016, 03:29 PM	#5
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/1 (3)	the roles defintiely influence the AI - no fear there... i am certain of that becuase of what i do in the playoffs with my bullpen... i was sick of seeing the bottom 2 guys used more than they needed to so i set them to unspecified roles. that seemed to do the trick. now, like clockwork, my top 3-5 guys get all the work in the playoffs. there's likely a few more thngs going into that AI decision than just the depth chart and game situation. the ai likely has processes that help avoid tired bullpens with compact schedules. anytime it deviates, there is a cause for why it made that decisions (not saying it's a good decision or bad - not important to this context of the paragraph). they definitely need to continue to tweak the AI for the pen... a basic decision tree is very simple thing for this situation but... i had to remove this paragraph because this makes sense: i think the bigger problem is how to incorporate something like "high leverage" and "use more/less" and coaching preferences into the loop of logic. using a pecking order, checking fatigue and possibly the next X-days on schedul until a day off is not complex to handle and use for the pen despite what it sounds like... that other crap influencing it is the difficult part and i'd wager that "extra stuff" cause for bad ai decisions (not just preference, but stupid decisions, hands-down). that extra stuff gives more realism, though, so i am not saying it should be removed but maybe simplified in it's application... maybe 3-4 base decisions trees for overall bullpen use for certain types of underlying factors (the coach? more?), then adjust for other factors in the loop of logic that are more easily incorporated and applied well. that, instead of all outside factors influence 1 decisions tree (or howewver you wish to visualize the logic). multiple bullpen decisions trees for various coach types as a base (or other factors if a better foundation) and then further manipulation within each of those exclusive decisions trees based on use more/less, higher leverage etc.. i think if they layered it differently it should handle all the qualifications better. everything you do to make a decision, the ai has access to the same info - anytihgn relevant to the game.. some humans will use irrelevant things, lol. the ai can make decisions just like you do, if coded properly (obviously i mean 1 strategy and some variants of it, and not all of our indidivdual wishes as to how it should work). they just need to approach it differently if thy say it's "too hard"... it's just being attacked in the wrong way or wrong order... if it doens't work, stop doing it and do it differently. quit forcing the square peg through the round hole, lenny! Last edited by NoOne; 12-30-2016 at 03:48 PM.

12-30-2016, 02:00 PM	#2
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 10,217 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	My thought. Play 50's, 60 and 70's ball and tell yourself lefty specialists, 7th inning guys and 8th inning guys were never invented I'm joking....well kind of Now let the serious discussion commence.