Hiring & Firing staff

PSUColonel · 05-31-2016, 02:56 PM

Is there any type of temporary penalty for flipping staff in season? If not, should there be? Should there be some type of cohesion between players and coaching staff?

Déjà Bru · 05-31-2016, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Is there any type of temporary penalty for flipping staff in season? If not, should there be? Should there be some type of cohesion between players and coaching staff?

Depends upon the frequency of "flipping," I would imagine, if what you mean is firing and hiring - see the highlighted sentence below. I mean, you can always fire personnel but if you do it too often in too short a time . . .

If, on the other hand, you mean reassigning personnel, moving them up and down the ladder (as long as the downward-heading ones accept their fates), there does not seem to be a penalty for this.

PSUColonel · 05-31-2016, 04:45 PM

I think I meant more with the team. Players who might have a positive relationship with a coach don't appear to get upset when you fire them. Players who don't have a good relationship with players don't get elated either. Players don't seem to grow any cohesion with a coaching staff over time...something I that IMO should be part of the personality model within OOTP.

Bluenoser · 05-31-2016, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I think I meant more with the team. Players who might have a positive relationship with a coach don't appear to get upset when you fire them. Players who don't have a good relationship with players don't get elated either. Players don't seem to grow any cohesion with a coaching staff over time...something I that IMO should be part of the personality model within OOTP.

Can you give some real life examples of coach firings that affected players? How do you implement it? Give a decrease in performance when a nice guy is fired, a boost when a grouch is fired? Seems to me it would be an awful lot of research to measure the effect, and then implement it.

SxSnts9 · 05-31-2016, 06:03 PM

I think PSU Colonel is on to something. Maybe not a direct affect to performance ratings, but it should affect the morale of players. In the relationships tabs you can see who each coach as a better relationship with and a worse relationship with. So, in a way oversimplified form, the guys who had a better relationship should have a slight hit to their morale temporarily and the guys who had a worse relationship should have a slight bonus to their morale temporarily. Obviously things like adaptability, recent team success, team leadership among players and other things should affect it on a more individual level, but this could work and make personnel more interesting.

Like I said, I WAYYY oversimplified it, but it's something that should be explored and tested for the next OOTP in my opinion.

As for real life examples I'm sure there are plenty. Most recently my chicago white sox are blowing it (as basically everyone expected) and the players are coming to Ventura's defense as he has a "better relationship" with some of them. It's up to management if they want to appease the players and keep Ventura or possibly upset their stars and go out to find a manager who won't sacrifice bunt with their #3 hitter. Makes for interesting drama.

BIG17EASY · 05-31-2016, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

Can you give some real life examples of coach firings that affected players? How do you implement it? Give a decrease in performance when a nice guy is fired, a boost when a grouch is fired? Seems to me it would be an awful lot of research to measure the effect, and then implement it.

This is spot on. Plus, a coach firing could affect one player negatively and another positively. And how do you really tell if any change in production was caused by the coach's dismissal?

Baseball can be viewed in the microscopic (one pitch, one at bat, one inning) or the macroscopic (a week, a month, a season, a career), and things can look vastly different depending on what view you take. For instance, at first glance, it looks like Daniel Murphy is thriving under the Nationals' coaching staff. But many believe it was actually the influence of Mets hitting coach Kevin Long (hired for the 2015 season) who had a big effect by working with him to be more aggressive and pull the ball. But (if that's true), Murphy's not reaping the full benefits until he left the Mets and Long. That's completely counter to the OP's suggestion of a negative impact when a player and coach are no longer working together.

curt · 05-31-2016, 07:01 PM

I fired batting and pitching coach and "suffered" a penalty. My team started hitting and pitching again

. Hope its not temporary.

Déjà Bru · 05-31-2016, 07:01 PM

Plus, I hate to say it but I will: Maybe the coaching module is getting a bit too cumbersome, murky, and intrusive as it is. (Yes, I am the Village Idiot. I ought to apply to have my name and avatar changed accordingly. Duh.

)

Coaching was too easy a few versions ago. Just recruit on the basis of blue ratings. So, OOTPD suppressed the display of those ratings (but not their effect, as I have opined in other threads), in favor of fuzzy stuff like reputation, personality, and player relationships.

Which are too fuzzy.

And which lead to the same phenomenon as before, but a different procedure. Since you really cannot pin this fuzzy stuff down, hire and fire coaches until they seem to be doing the job. Reputation does not help; it comes after the fact and is variable; ever higher a coach with a "good" reputation, watch your team tank, and see the rep become "poor" in short order?

Long story made short: Any further complications to the coaching module such as PSUColonel proposes should be part of several layers of options as to how coaches work and effect gameplay. The options should not be just "On" and "Off" which is basically what it boils down to, still.

PSUColonel · 05-31-2016, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Plus, I hate to say it but I will: Maybe the coaching module is getting a bit too cumbersome, murky, and intrusive as it is. (Yes, I am the Village Idiot. I ought to apply to have my name and avatar changed accordingly. Duh.

)

Coaching was too easy a few versions ago. Just recruit on the basis of blue ratings. So, OOTPD suppressed the display of those ratings (but not their effect, as I have opined in other threads), in favor of fuzzy stuff like reputation, personality, and player relationships.

Which are too fuzzy.

And which lead to the same phenomenon as before, but a different procedure. Since you really cannot pin this fuzzy stuff down, hire and fire coaches until they seem to be doing the job. Reputation does not help; it comes after the fact and is variable; ever higher a coach with a "good" reputation, watch your team tank, and see the rep become "poor" in short order?

Long story made short: Any further complications to the coaching module such as PSUColonel proposes should be part of several layers of options as to how coaches work and effect gameplay. The options should not be just "On" and "Off" which is basically what it boils down to, still.

Cumbersome? If anything it's too simplistic! There is so much more than can be done in this area.

risp2out · 05-31-2016, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Cumbersome? If anything it's too simplistic! There is so much more than can be done in this area.

I think it depends on how much you like to control play on the field. I'm a very hands-on field manager, so yeah, just getting "blue" hitting and pitching coaches is my main concern. However, if you're hands-off of your field manager, you may be quite interested in the manager's tendencies toward stealing, defensive substitutions, lifting starters, etc., etc. Like most things in OOTP, it depends a lot on how you play.

BigRed75 · 05-31-2016, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SxSnts9

I think PSU Colonel is on to something. Maybe not a direct affect to performance ratings, but it should affect the morale of players. In the relationships tabs you can see who each coach as a better relationship with and a worse relationship with. So, in a way oversimplified form, the guys who had a better relationship should have a slight hit to their morale temporarily and the guys who had a worse relationship should have a slight bonus to their morale temporarily. Obviously things like adaptability, recent team success, team leadership among players and other things should affect it on a more individual level, but this could work and make personnel more interesting.

Like I said, I WAYYY oversimplified it, but it's something that should be explored and tested for the next OOTP in my opinion.

I wouldn't say you over-simplified it. I would say that right there is as complicated as it needs to be.

PSUColonel · 06-09-2016, 05:52 PM

Another problem is.....hiring hitting and pitching coaches just feels empty.

Pick a guy with a good reputation, and that's it. Maybe coaches should have preferred people the like to work with as well as a list of notable players they've had a hand in developing?

Another possibility for realism, is to expand the staff to include catching coaches, bullpen coaches, 1st and 3rd base coaches, and simply allow the manager you hire to pick the staff they prefer to have under them. You could do the hiring yourself if you like, but some managers may be insistant (depending on reputation) that you hire who they want. Some others may only want an individual or two, while others may give you full control over whom you hire for the coaching staff. Of course if you don't want to do any of the hiring, you could simply as the manager to pick whom he likes, which brings me to another point.

Doing this may make a manger very happy, and there should be some sort of morale system for staff members. Some may want to be promoted and feel they've earned it. There could be a variety of environmental factors which play a role in staff morale and happiness.

MrBojangles · 06-09-2016, 09:19 PM

I'd be a fan of implementing some of these details for the coaching staff. Like so many other things in OOTP, you could choose to get into the detail, or choose not to.

BigRed75 · 06-09-2016, 10:53 PM

One of my least favorite developments in Football Manager was the increase in detail in all of the training regimens. I hated dealing with that crap, anyway, and then I felt like I had to do it, and do it well, if I wanted any of my players to develop. I couldn't just leave it to the coaches that I hired.

I'd hate it if OOTP when down that same route. Frankly, I don't care about player development. I just want to build the teams and see how they go. Thankfully, there's a GM-only mode for that. I'd hate for player development to intrude on GM-only mode. Billy Beane ain't down their setting up sliding drills or hitting fungoes. He's got people that he hires and trusts to do all of that.

I'm just saying...

PSUColonel · 06-09-2016, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRed75

One of my least favorite developments in Football Manager was the increase in detail in all of the training regimens. I hated dealing with that crap, anyway, and then I felt like I had to do it, and do it well, if I wanted any of my players to develop. I couldn't just leave it to the coaches that I hired.

I'd hate it if OOTP when down that same route. Frankly, I don't care about player development. I just want to build the teams and see how they go. Thankfully, there's a GM-only mode for that. I'd hate for player development to intrude on GM-only mode. Billy Beane ain't down their setting up sliding drills or hitting fungoes. He's got people that he hires and trusts to do all of that.

I'm just saying...

This is a GM situation and player development is EVERYTHING. I am talking about staff...which is something a GM DOES deal with. I am not talking about setting up hitting drills...which is something a GM DOES NOT do.

Baldrick88 · 06-09-2016, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRed75

One of my least favorite developments in Football Manager was the increase in detail in all of the training regimens. I hated dealing with that crap, anyway, and then I felt like I had to do it, and do it well, if I wanted any of my players to develop. I couldn't just leave it to the coaches that I hired.

I'd hate it if OOTP when down that same route. Frankly, I don't care about player development. I just want to build the teams and see how they go. Thankfully, there's a GM-only mode for that. I'd hate for player development to intrude on GM-only mode. Billy Beane ain't down their setting up sliding drills or hitting fungoes. He's got people that he hires and trusts to do all of that.

I'm just saying...

You have to dabble in your minors to make sure those stars are utilized and trained properly. I usually make the minors lineups and rotation etc. Take an upcoming star and train him in 2 positions. Adjust game strategy etc. Move players up and down and adjust. The current AI coaches are terrible and you need to micro manage your minors to get the best benefit.

MrBojangles · 06-11-2016, 12:13 AM

I work really hard to get good trades and bring good prospects into my system. I do the same with searching for great coaches.
But, then I leave it to the coaches to manage the prospects. Sounds like that part is a mistake.

RonCo · 07-11-2016, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

This is a GM situation and player development is EVERYTHING. I am talking about staff...which is something a GM DOES deal with. I am not talking about setting up hitting drills...which is something a GM DOES NOT do.

This is why, when a GM goes to hire a coach, he does his background/reference checks and ascertains some idea of skills (ratings) related to things like "teaches hitting," or "teaches pitching" or "deals with kids" or "handles veterans" or ... you know, the things we used to have.

As I've said before, IMHO, the answer to the "fog of war" questions here are to give more information rather than take away what we had.

Here would be a great listing for a prospective pitching coach, IHMO. (All items in red would make a difference in his performance).

Skills/Traits:
Current Baseball Reputation: Average
Personality: Controlling
Preferred Role: Pitching Coach
Teaches Power Pitches: Legendary
Specialties: Cutter, Slider
Teaches Finesse Pitches: Average
Teaches Mechanics: Below Average
Teaches Running Game Management: Average
Teaches Fielding: Poor
Stresses Conditioning: Average
Relates to Young Players: Outstanding
Relates to Veterans: Average

Tactical Preferences:
Stolen Base: Often
Baserunning: Highly Aggressive
Hit and Run: Average
Bunt for Hit: Often
Sac Bunt: Rarely
Starting Pitcher Hook: Quick
Relief Pitcher Hook: Quick
Uses Platoon Advantage: Often
Uses Pinch Hitters: Often
Uses Infield Shifts: Average

Hrycaj · 07-11-2016, 02:48 PM

I feel like pitching and hitting coaches can do more. Roger Craig comes to mind. From everything I have read he was directly responsible for many of the pitchers in the 80's learning the split finger fastball. Why can't SOME of the pc's have a signature pitch that your players have a chance of developing based on a number of factors. They do the same thing with knuckleballers, teams hire the same guys to work with potential knuckles all the time. If feel like you could do the same with hitters as well. If Maury Wills was a hitting coach he could specialize in bunting or something. I have read plenty of threads that wondered if pitchers learn new pitches. At least this way you know you have a chance that one of your guys will learn a new pitch or a new hitting technique based on a coach.

BigRed75 · 07-11-2016, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baldrick88

You have to dabble in your minors to make sure those stars are utilized and trained properly. I usually make the minors lineups and rotation etc. Take an upcoming star and train him in 2 positions. Adjust game strategy etc. Move players up and down and adjust. The current AI coaches are terrible and you need to micro manage your minors to get the best benefit.

And that's the crap I don't want to deal with. There's a reason to hire minor league coaches.

05-31-2016, 02:56 PM	#1
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,111	Hiring & Firing staff Is there any type of temporary penalty for flipping staff in season? If not, should there be? Should there be some type of cohesion between players and coaching staff?

05-31-2016, 06:03 PM	#5
SxSnts9 Minors (Double A) Join Date: May 2016 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 154	I think PSU Colonel is on to something. Maybe not a direct affect to performance ratings, but it should affect the morale of players. In the relationships tabs you can see who each coach as a better relationship with and a worse relationship with. So, in a way oversimplified form, the guys who had a better relationship should have a slight hit to their morale temporarily and the guys who had a worse relationship should have a slight bonus to their morale temporarily. Obviously things like adaptability, recent team success, team leadership among players and other things should affect it on a more individual level, but this could work and make personnel more interesting. Like I said, I WAYYY oversimplified it, but it's something that should be explored and tested for the next OOTP in my opinion. As for real life examples I'm sure there are plenty. Most recently my chicago white sox are blowing it (as basically everyone expected) and the players are coming to Ventura's defense as he has a "better relationship" with some of them. It's up to management if they want to appease the players and keep Ventura or possibly upset their stars and go out to find a manager who won't sacrifice bunt with their #3 hitter. Makes for interesting drama. __________________ "They let me down real easy when they cut me. I showed up at the stadium and was told that visitors aren't allowed in the clubhouse." - Bob Uecker

05-31-2016, 07:01 PM	#8
Déjà Bru Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Long Island Posts: 11,742	Plus, I hate to say it but I will: Maybe the coaching module is getting a bit too cumbersome, murky, and intrusive as it is. (Yes, I am the Village Idiot. I ought to apply to have my name and avatar changed accordingly. Duh. ) Coaching was too easy a few versions ago. Just recruit on the basis of blue ratings. So, OOTPD suppressed the display of those ratings (but not their effect, as I have opined in other threads), in favor of fuzzy stuff like reputation, personality, and player relationships. Which are too fuzzy. And which lead to the same phenomenon as before, but a different procedure. Since you really cannot pin this fuzzy stuff down, hire and fire coaches until they seem to be doing the job. Reputation does not help; it comes after the fact and is variable; ever higher a coach with a "good" reputation, watch your team tank, and see the rep become "poor" in short order? Long story made short: Any further complications to the coaching module such as PSUColonel proposes should be part of several layers of options as to how coaches work and effect gameplay. The options should not be just "On" and "Off" which is basically what it boils down to, still. __________________ - Bru

06-09-2016, 10:53 PM	#14
BigRed75 Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 2,430	One of my least favorite developments in Football Manager was the increase in detail in all of the training regimens. I hated dealing with that crap, anyway, and then I felt like I had to do it, and do it well, if I wanted any of my players to develop. I couldn't just leave it to the coaches that I hired. I'd hate it if OOTP when down that same route. Frankly, I don't care about player development. I just want to build the teams and see how they go. Thankfully, there's a GM-only mode for that. I'd hate for player development to intrude on GM-only mode. Billy Beane ain't down their setting up sliding drills or hitting fungoes. He's got people that he hires and trusts to do all of that. I'm just saying... __________________ Mainline team SPTT team Was not a Snag fan...until I saw the fallout once he was gone and realized what a good job he was actually doing. - Ty Cobb

07-11-2016, 02:48 PM	#19
Hrycaj All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,724	I feel like pitching and hitting coaches can do more. Roger Craig comes to mind. From everything I have read he was directly responsible for many of the pitchers in the 80's learning the split finger fastball. Why can't SOME of the pc's have a signature pitch that your players have a chance of developing based on a number of factors. They do the same thing with knuckleballers, teams hire the same guys to work with potential knuckles all the time. If feel like you could do the same with hitters as well. If Maury Wills was a hitting coach he could specialize in bunting or something. I have read plenty of threads that wondered if pitchers learn new pitches. At least this way you know you have a chance that one of your guys will learn a new pitch or a new hitting technique based on a coach. __________________ Click on my signature to read about the great game of baseball in Normington.

05-31-2016, 04:45 PM	#3
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,111	I think I meant more with the team. Players who might have a positive relationship with a coach don't appear to get upset when you fire them. Players who don't have a good relationship with players don't get elated either. Players don't seem to grow any cohesion with a coaching staff over time...something I that IMO should be part of the personality model within OOTP.

05-31-2016, 07:01 PM	#7
curt Major Leagues Join Date: May 2013 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 472	I fired batting and pitching coach and "suffered" a penalty. My team started hitting and pitching again . Hope its not temporary.

06-09-2016, 05:52 PM	#12
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,111	Another problem is.....hiring hitting and pitching coaches just feels empty. Pick a guy with a good reputation, and that's it. Maybe coaches should have preferred people the like to work with as well as a list of notable players they've had a hand in developing? Another possibility for realism, is to expand the staff to include catching coaches, bullpen coaches, 1st and 3rd base coaches, and simply allow the manager you hire to pick the staff they prefer to have under them. You could do the hiring yourself if you like, but some managers may be insistant (depending on reputation) that you hire who they want. Some others may only want an individual or two, while others may give you full control over whom you hire for the coaching staff. Of course if you don't want to do any of the hiring, you could simply as the manager to pick whom he likes, which brings me to another point. Doing this may make a manger very happy, and there should be some sort of morale system for staff members. Some may want to be promoted and feel they've earned it. There could be a variety of environmental factors which play a role in staff morale and happiness.

06-09-2016, 09:19 PM	#13
MrBojangles All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: low and inside Posts: 568	I'd be a fan of implementing some of these details for the coaching staff. Like so many other things in OOTP, you could choose to get into the detail, or choose not to.

06-11-2016, 12:13 AM	#17
MrBojangles All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: low and inside Posts: 568	I work really hard to get good trades and bring good prospects into my system. I do the same with searching for great coaches. But, then I leave it to the coaches to manage the prospects. Sounds like that part is a mistake.