Scoring Question

[battists]

So, if a runner gets on due to an error, and then the next batter hits a home run, it only counts as one earned run, right?

However, what if the person who committed the error that allowed the runner to get on base was the pitcher?

[cheo25]

It's still only one earned run in your scenario. Pitchers' ERAs are not hurt by their own errors.

And in your scenario, it would be zero earned runs if the error occurred with two outs.

[Curve Ball Dave]

Originally Posted by cheo25

It's still only one earned run in your scenario. Pitchers' ERAs are not hurt by their own errors.

Exactly.

And if a pitcher gives up a lot of unearned runs that will show up in other stats, particularly opponents' batting average.

[battists]

Thanks! (I didn't even know the two out rule!)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MrBojangles]

I always wondered about pitchers committing errors and how that counted.

[Number4]

I think not including pitcher's errors in ERA is wrong. It makes sense to not count runs on you that did only score because your fielders did something wrong, however your personal errors are for me part of your performance. The pitcher allowing an run to score by an own error gets credit for a performance as if it wasn't his fault, yet it was.

[Mariner and Giants Fan]

Originally Posted by Number4

I think not including pitcher's errors in ERA is wrong. It makes sense to not count runs on you that did only score because your fielders did something wrong, however your personal errors are for me part of your performance. The pitcher allowing an run to score by an own error gets credit for a performance as if it wasn't his fault, yet it was.

Actually, it makes perfect sense. as the pitcher's ERA is a measure of his pitching performance, not his defensive skills. Think about it. Should a player's batting average also be impacted by his defensive stats?

[jbergey22]

Earned Runs/Unearned Runs arent calculated correctly in OOTP on certain issues. Really bugs me.

The two out issue, new pitchers coming into the game in which an error has happened the inning he comes in, other instances. It has been going on for numerous versions so it must be a difficult fix.

A specific example would be the first batter of the inning reaches on an error, 2nd and 3rd batters strikeout, the 4th batter singles, and the fifth batter hits a 3 run home run. The game will count this as 3r, 2er when it should be 0 earned as the inning would have been over prior to the home run if the error hadnt happened.

[Number4]

Originally Posted by Mariner and Giants Fan

Actually, it makes perfect sense. as the pitcher's ERA is a measure of his pitching performance, not his defensive skills. Think about it. Should a player's batting average also be impacted by his defensive stats?

For me, ERA measures a pitcher's (defensive) performance, how many runs he does allow in 9 innings. Excluding errors makes sense, as those are usually not his fault.

However, when you give a pitcher the ball you also have to accept his fielding. You cannot pinch-field for the pitcher, so his whole performance in getting outs is not 100% pitching, it is 99% pitching and 1% fielding. I know there are more complicated statistics that will include his fielding, but I like the simplicity of ERA. "This is how many allowed runs you can expect with this pitcher on the mound, if his teammates do not let him down."

Letting him off the hook for his own errors makes no sense for me. If a batter reaches on an E1 and comes around to score, that run is given up by the man on the mound. Another pitcher, given the definition of error, would likely not allow the same guy to reach and score. The performance of a pitcher allowing a runner to reach first on an E1 and on a single is in game terms exactly identical, so the main performance stat ERA should reflect that as well and only let a pitcher get unearned runs if it wasn't the pitchers fault those runs scored.

[Mariner and Giants Fan]

Originally Posted by Number4

For me, ERA measures a pitcher's (defensive) performance, how many runs he does allow in 9 innings. Excluding errors makes sense, as those are usually not his fault.

However, when you give a pitcher the ball you also have to accept his fielding. You cannot pinch-field for the pitcher, so his whole performance in getting outs is not 100% pitching, it is 99% pitching and 1% fielding. I know there are more complicated statistics that will include his fielding, but I like the simplicity of ERA. "This is how many allowed runs you can expect with this pitcher on the mound, if his teammates do not let him down."

Letting him off the hook for his own errors makes no sense for me. If a batter reaches on an E1 and comes around to score, that run is given up by the man on the mound. Another pitcher, given the definition of error, would likely not allow the same guy to reach and score. The performance of a pitcher allowing a runner to reach first on an E1 and on a single is in game terms exactly identical, so the main performance stat ERA should reflect that as well and only let a pitcher get unearned runs if it wasn't the pitchers fault those runs scored.

You are over thinking this. Have you ever tried to understand the infield fly rule? I mean why it is a rule? Anyway I understand why you think it makes no sense not to count the pitchers error but it really is simple as it boils down to pitching = pitches thrown and the result of that. An error is an error no matter who makes it and has been deemed not earned by the baseball rule makers, end of story.

[MrBojangles]

many rules in baseball, and many stats for that matter, don't make actual sense if you think about them too hard - but that is the beautiful imperfection of this game that we still enjoy

[Number4]

Originally Posted by Mariner and Giants Fan

You are over thinking this. Have you ever tried to understand the infield fly rule? I mean why it is a rule? Anyway I understand why you think it makes no sense not to count the pitchers error but it really is simple as it boils down to pitching = pitches thrown and the result of that. An error is an error no matter who makes it and has been deemed not earned by the baseball rule makers, end of story.

Infield fly rule, off the top of my head: On a popup catchable by an infielder with ordinary effort, does not has to be actually the infielder making the catch in the end, with runners on first and 2nd or bases loaded, the fielders could intentionally drop the ball and fire to 3rd and 2nd for an easy force out double play, or if runners advance in order to avoid this double play, the ball would be caught and thrown to the previous bag of a runner advancing, allowing another kind of double play.

To remove this "cheap" way of getting a double play, an infield fly is an automatic out for the batter-runner, which removes the forceouts from the other runners, allowing them to stay at their bags.

If there is only a runner at first, the drop ball - nab runner at second possibilty is there, but then the batter-runner reaches first and we're back to square one.

However, I really, really wonder why teams do not let infield pop ups with a fast runner at first drop and throw to second, if the batter-runner is significantly slower and therefore preferable as baserunner to the defending team.

With an IQ of 149, I have a difficult time of NOT overthinking things.

[Curve Ball Dave]

Originally Posted by Number4

However, when you give a pitcher the ball you also have to accept his fielding. You cannot pinch-field for the pitcher, so his whole performance in getting outs is not 100% pitching, it is 99% pitching and 1% fielding. I know there are more complicated statistics that will include his fielding, but I like the simplicity of ERA. "This is how many allowed runs you can expect with this pitcher on the mound, if his teammates do not let him down."

Once the pitcher releases the ball he becomes an infielder. Pitching and playing the infield (at point blank range I might add) are two completely different skills and two different tasks. If you've done it, you'll know.

As I said above, even if the pitcher's ERA does not take a hit his other stats will if he gives up unearned runs in large numbers. He does not get off the hook so easily. Anyone can look at his numbers and see his Runs versus Earned Runs and look at his opponents' batting average. If he gives up a lot of unearned runs his OBA will be high (or H/9,. whichever way you want to express it) and there's no way to gloss that over and make the pitcher still look good.

No one stat ever tells the whole story. ERA is one measure among many, and even without advanced metrics you can look at some basic stats and draw good conclusions as to how effective a particular pitcher is.

[Paulie123]

Originally Posted by Number4

However, I really, really wonder why teams do not let infield pop ups with a fast runner at first drop and throw to second, if the batter-runner is significantly slower and therefore preferable as baserunner to the defending team.

Ian Kinsler did this earlier this season against the Astros. Colby Rasmus was on first, he let Tyler White's infield fly drop, then lobbed it to second to.force.out Rasmus and let slower White reach first.

[msupoke]

A run produced from an error is unearned no matter who made the error, so it does not count in the earned run average.

[Vulkan]

Originally Posted by Paulie123

Ian Kinsler did this earlier this season against the Astros. Colby Rasmus was on first, he let Tyler White's infield fly drop, then lobbed it to second to.force.out Rasmus and let slower White reach first.

Kinsler's play was really heads up. And legal.

There is however also a rule covering intentionally dropped balls. If that occurs the batter is out and the ball is dead. However, that rule does not apply if the ball is dropped untouched in a non infield fly situation. (Kinsler).

[rpriske]

There is a pretty big mistake in how OOTP scores earned runs.


If a batter reaches on an error and then is thrown out when the next batter reaches on a fielder's choice, and THEN the batter that hit into the FC scores (before another out is recorded) the game counts that runner as an Earned Run.

That is wrong. That runner is still on base because of the error (as in, it would have been a routine ground-out for the 2nd out of the first runner had been thrown out as per normal), so any run he scores is unearned.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by msupoke

A run produced from an error is unearned no matter who made the error, so it does not count in the earned run average.

Not true, in fact an example of this occurred yesterday. JA Happ walked Segura with 2 out. Segura scored from 1st on a single and E9 with the batter Gosselin to 3B. At that time the run was unearned but Happ walked two more batters which changed the scoring. Jerry Howarth mentioned it at the time on the radio. I found it strange apparently the second walk did it. The box score confirms it. See below.

[msupoke]

Originally Posted by RchW

Not true, in fact an example of this occurred yesterday. JA Happ walked Segura with 2 out. Segura scored from 1st on a single and E9 with the batter Gosselin to 3B. At that time the run was unearned but Happ walked two more batters which changed the scoring. Jerry Howarth mentioned it at the time on the radio. I found it strange apparently the second walk did it. The box score confirms it. See below.

The error in that case only allowed the runners to advance. Therefore, once the walks were issued, the run was scored as it would have been had no error occurred. The error would not have been an out had he played it cleanly. As evidenced by the fact that it was a single and an error.

[Whoofe]

Originally Posted by msupoke

The error in that case only allowed the runners to advance. Therefore, once the walks were issued, the run was scored as it would have been had no error occurred. The error would not have been an out had he played it cleanly. As evidenced by the fact that it was a single and an error.

I didn't realize scoring on whether a run was earned or not could depend on later plays, but what you said seems to make sense!