Promotion/Relegation

Poweshow · 02-19-2016, 08:44 PM

I'll keep it short this year...

Yes or No?

Markus Heinsohn · 02-20-2016, 05:02 AM

No. This is not high on our priority list for two simple reasons: a) it is very very complicated to code, and b) only a tiny fraction of users would ever use it.

I am not saying it'll never be part of the game, but definitely not in OOTP 17.

professor ape · 02-20-2016, 09:27 AM

Understandable, but it still rings as a disappointment. I have been dying to do a "what if" for an MLB universe.

deanemj · 03-03-2016, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

No. This is not high on our priority list for two simple reasons: a) it is very very complicated to code, and b) only a tiny fraction of users would ever use it.

I am not saying it'll never be part of the game, but definitely not in OOTP 17.

Maybe next year...please?

RchW · 03-03-2016, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by professor ape

Understandable, but it still rings as a disappointment. I have been dying to do a "what if" for an MLB universe.

I seem to read about work arounds, I understand that is little comfort, but is it worth anything?

professor ape · 03-03-2016, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

I seem to read about work arounds, I understand that is little comfort, but is it worth anything?

My understanding is that it is a good bit of manual work but outside of that, the AI doesn't think in terms of P/R so the teams at risk won't play like their place in the league is on the line.

I certainly get why this is a secondary consideration when prioritizing development resources but it would open up so many fun options for building leagues.

tward13 · 03-03-2016, 09:04 PM

Need to get everything working right that really exists n baseball first.

The Wolf · 03-03-2016, 09:08 PM

You can do it manually.

cmaug · 03-03-2016, 09:25 PM

I've posted questions about how people do it and I would use it if available, but to think promotion/relegation would be a priority in any way for the developers of a baseball game is misguided.

Hageneezz · 03-04-2016, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tward13

Need to get everything working right that really exists n baseball first.

Well, there are leagues that use the promotion/relegation rule, and i`m quite sure it is real baseball

Tekneek · 03-04-2016, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

You can do it manually.

By manually, you really have to micromanage the teams to get them to behave like they are about to be relegated as well. They don't inherently understand that they are about to make the drop. There is a whole lot of manual tweaking involved with getting something that seems reasonable. Setting it up, letting it sim, and moving teams between the leagues, really leads to some strange things. The AI simply doesn't comprehend pro/rel. Ideally, the game would handle it better if you could unlock the appropriate AI intelligence of what pro/rel means (even if you still had to manually move the teams between the divisions/leagues).

Tekneek · 03-04-2016, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hageneezz

Well, there are leagues that use the promotion/relegation rule, and i`m quite sure it is real baseball

With every team human managed, it works well (obviously, although there is a little more administrative overhead in the offseason).

EDIT...I thought you were referring to OOTP online leagues at first.

Le Grande Orange · 03-04-2016, 01:00 PM

It should be noted that promotion/relegation isn't just about clubs moving between leagues. It would affect the financial model as well. (And the financial model getting revised doesn't appear to be in the cards for some years yet.)

cavebutter · 03-04-2016, 01:13 PM

There's also the question of what to do with farm systems. Every time I've tried to do a pro/rel league, I ended up canning the minor leagues because I couldn't figure out a good way to handle them. I'd imagine that the fun of pro/rel might outweigh the fun of managing a farm system, but when you're doing it manually, it definitely does not.

Cryomaniac · 03-04-2016, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmaug

I've posted questions about how people do it and I would use it if available, but to think promotion/relegation would be a priority in any way for the developers of a baseball game is misguided.

I agree, and coming from me on the issue of whether I think random stuff should be added that is quite something.

More playoff options (we should at least be able to recreate any real life playoff system), Improved associations, World baseball classic, etc are all far higher priority than promotion/relegation.

That doesnt mean that I dont want it to ever be in the game.

jpeters1734 · 03-04-2016, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cavebutter

There's also the question of what to do with farm systems. Every time I've tried to do a pro/rel league, I ended up canning the minor leagues because I couldn't figure out a good way to handle them. I'd imagine that the fun of pro/rel might outweigh the fun of managing a farm system, but when you're doing it manually, it definitely does not.

If there was a way to affiliate a minor league to more than one major leagues, managing minors would be easy. Each teams minors will play against each other while the ML teams battle it out with P/R

Padreman · 03-04-2016, 07:58 PM

The Mexican league has affiliated from even the lower level Mexican leagues and many of those teams are affiliated with 2 clubs

Tekneek · 03-04-2016, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpeters1734

If there was a way to affiliate a minor league to more than one major leagues, managing minors would be easy. Each teams minors will play against each other while the ML teams battle it out with P/R

That would be the ideal configuration.

tedstriker · 03-05-2016, 03:55 PM

How mod-able is OOTP? Do we have access to the database for editing outside of the game? If so, it is likely possible to script all of the manual procedures people are going through right now. It obviously won't be perfect, but might be good enough to satisfy those looking for this feature (myself included). It could also give Marcus feedback about how people would use it.

I think the key reason I have a avoided it is the extra overhead of all the manual steps. Also, without different financial structures for each league, I'm not sure it would be any fun. However, if we can modify the database, we could automate something simple like decreasing budget by a fixed percentage when relegated, or imposing different salary caps where player's contract is decreased by the percentage necessary to meet the cap.

The AI would be still be lacking, but I could live with that for a long time. Actually, there might even be hacks here we could automate. For example, if a team is in the relegation zone with X number of games to play, automatically switch them to "Win Now" mode. Again, not perfect, but might be ok.

tedstriker · 03-05-2016, 04:02 PM

It looks like what I'm suggesting is possible:

Out of the Park Developments Online Manuals

We could export the database at the end of each season, use a script to move teams between leagues based on records, modify financials, etc. and then re-import.

Has anyone else tried this? Would this mess up free agency? I've never tried a multi-league game before so I'm not sure how it would work.

02-19-2016, 08:44 PM	#1
Poweshow Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bay Area Posts: 243 Infractions: 0/3 (3)	Promotion/Relegation I'll keep it short this year... Yes or No?

02-20-2016, 05:02 AM	#2
Markus Heinsohn Developer OOTP Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 24,805	No. This is not high on our priority list for two simple reasons: a) it is very very complicated to code, and b) only a tiny fraction of users would ever use it. I am not saying it'll never be part of the game, but definitely not in OOTP 17. __________________ Buy Out of the Park Baseball 25 now! Download OOTP Go 25 for iOS Download OOTP Go 25 for Android

03-04-2016, 01:13 PM	#14
cavebutter All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,164	There's also the question of what to do with farm systems. Every time I've tried to do a pro/rel league, I ended up canning the minor leagues because I couldn't figure out a good way to handle them. I'd imagine that the fun of pro/rel might outweigh the fun of managing a farm system, but when you're doing it manually, it definitely does not. __________________ MySQL, MyStruggle - A self-indulgent blog about my attempts to roll my own MySQL Database with OOTP Logo Gallery

03-04-2016, 07:58 PM	#17
Padreman Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2013 Location: Tijuana, Baja California, Mexico (formally San Diego, CA.) Posts: 4,138	The Mexican league has affiliated from even the lower level Mexican leagues and many of those teams are affiliated with 2 clubs __________________ Chargers= Despicable Traitors

02-20-2016, 09:27 AM	#3
professor ape All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: The belly of the beast Posts: 1,498	Understandable, but it still rings as a disappointment. I have been dying to do a "what if" for an MLB universe.

03-03-2016, 09:04 PM	#7
tward13 All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,964	Need to get everything working right that really exists n baseball first.

03-03-2016, 09:25 PM	#9
cmaug Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 344	I've posted questions about how people do it and I would use it if available, but to think promotion/relegation would be a priority in any way for the developers of a baseball game is misguided.

03-04-2016, 01:00 PM	#13
Le Grande Orange Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Up There Posts: 15,644	It should be noted that promotion/relegation isn't just about clubs moving between leagues. It would affect the financial model as well. (And the financial model getting revised doesn't appear to be in the cards for some years yet.)

03-05-2016, 03:55 PM	#19
tedstriker Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 75	How mod-able is OOTP? Do we have access to the database for editing outside of the game? If so, it is likely possible to script all of the manual procedures people are going through right now. It obviously won't be perfect, but might be good enough to satisfy those looking for this feature (myself included). It could also give Marcus feedback about how people would use it. I think the key reason I have a avoided it is the extra overhead of all the manual steps. Also, without different financial structures for each league, I'm not sure it would be any fun. However, if we can modify the database, we could automate something simple like decreasing budget by a fixed percentage when relegated, or imposing different salary caps where player's contract is decreased by the percentage necessary to meet the cap. The AI would be still be lacking, but I could live with that for a long time. Actually, there might even be hacks here we could automate. For example, if a team is in the relegation zone with X number of games to play, automatically switch them to "Win Now" mode. Again, not perfect, but might be ok.

03-05-2016, 04:02 PM	#20
tedstriker Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 75	It looks like what I'm suggesting is possible: Out of the Park Developments Online Manuals We could export the database at the end of each season, use a script to move teams between leagues based on records, modify financials, etc. and then re-import. Has anyone else tried this? Would this mess up free agency? I've never tried a multi-league game before so I'm not sure how it would work.