sign and release strikes again :)

[ra7c7er]

I'm usually one to try and defend this happening and it usually happens during the season when teams with reserve rosters are trying to fill in for injuries and then having to release people but this happened in the off-season right after the inaugural draft. 12 times he was signed and released in the off season by the same team (which also makes this unique to many of the other instances of this I've seen). At least Weaton seems to like him.



I will say this considering this is the first year of the league and he's gotten signing bonuses 13 times I bet he's the richest player in the league.

[Sweed]

What signing bonus? They're minor league contracts. Or am I missing something?

Should it happen? No (especially in the off-season), but I would think there is something in your league setup that is causing it. If it were widespread there would be tons of posts on the topic. Instead we get a few posts here and there where this comes up.


You also mention an inaugural draft with a new league, maybe the AI is struggling in the initial setup of it's teams and once play starts it shakes itself out and you don't see it again? Still shouldn't happen but it may be a reason to submit a support ticket and send the file so they can hopefully look at your specific league to determine the cause.

[ra7c7er]

Originally Posted by Sweed

What signing bonus? They're minor league contracts. Or am I missing something?

Should it happen? No (especially in the off-season), but I would think there is something in your league setup that is causing it. If it were widespread there would be tons of posts on the topic. Instead we get a few posts here and there where this comes up.


You also mention an inaugural draft with a new league, maybe the AI is struggling in the initial setup of it's teams and once play starts it shakes itself out and you don't see it again? Still shouldn't happen but it may be a reason to submit a support ticket and send the file so they can hopefully look at your specific league to determine the cause.

Their are many posts about it. It happens most often with leagues that use reserve rosters but does happen in the minor leagues on MLB setups too. It's not league setup because this is box stock independent league that the game starts you with.

Most people don't see it when playing MLB setups, because they don't look so close, but if you watch players right after the entry draft it happens a lot even in the MLB leagues. Similar to players being sent down and being called up over and over daily.

And no it doesn't shake itself out. It happens all the time. Usually with one or two players a draft. It's almost like the game is fighting itself. Roster logic and drafting/signing logic don't seem to work nicely sometimes.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by ra7c7er

Their are many posts about it. It happens most often with leagues that use reserve rosters but does happen in the minor leagues on MLB setups too. It's not league setup because this is box stock independent league that the game starts you with.

Most people don't see it when playing MLB setups, because they don't look so close, but if you watch players right after the entry draft it happens a lot even in the MLB leagues. Similar to players being sent down and being called up over and over daily.

And no it doesn't shake itself out. It happens all the time. Usually with one or two players a draft. It's almost like the game is fighting itself. Roster logic and drafting/signing logic don't seem to work nicely sometimes.

My search of the v16 forum and bug thread using "sign release" reveal...

1 post in the bug thread

3 threads in general discussion. One of those threads has two guys saying they have the issue and one of those is the one that posted in the bug forum. His issue was fixed by allowing more roster spots in minors.

One of those threads is the one you just posted.

One is about independent leagues http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...nsactions.html and only has one guy posting about the issue.
You posted in this thread suggesting some causes. Someone else posted independent leagues use a 15 man reserve roster which is a likely cause with little space to store players. I'm taking his word on independents using 15 man reserves, since I've never played with independent leagues and nobody claimed he was wrong in the thread.

Not sure how that equates to "many posts" and "happens all the time"?

Be great if it never happened in any league but with all of the variables and options in setting up one's game it may take awhile to "clean up" all instances. I have yet to see anyone post the issue where it couldn't be fixed or at least explained by available roster spots.

Just because someone uses a default league setup doesn't mean it can't cause an issue. IIRC when full minors were added to OOTP the lowest level minors defaulted to either 25 or 28 man rosters which caused S\R issues. Haven't setup a league in a long time but wouldn't be surprised if I was told that lowest level minors now default to 35 or more roster spots. If they don't they probably should. Just as stock independents may need a bigger reserve roster by default?

Maybe you've noted a new cause with an inaugural draft? I'm sure a "totally new start" like that causes the AI to do more evaluations than a mature league, which is pretty much what I suggested. If that doesn't shake out over time I think it should be ticketed along with a league file for Markus and co. to check out. Just my 2 cents.

FWIW a few versions ago I watched transactions closely when sign\release first came up. Almost immediately expanding lowest level minors came up as the suggested fix. I expanded my lowest level as suggested and also enabled ghost players(ghosts more to cut down on micromanagement than fix S\R, but maybe it helps too?) With those changes I never saw a S\R issue in my game.

[hluraven]

Originally Posted by Sweed

My search of the v16 forum and bug thread using "sign release" reveal...

1 post in the bug thread

3 threads in general discussion. One of those threads has two guys saying they have the issue and one of those is the one that posted in the bug forum. His issue was fixed by allowing more roster spots in minors.

One of those threads is the one you just posted.

One is about independent leagues http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...nsactions.html and only has one guy posting about the issue.
You posted in this thread suggesting some causes. Someone else posted independent leagues use a 15 man reserve roster which is a likely cause with little space to store players. I'm taking his word on independents using 15 man reserves, since I've never played with independent leagues and nobody claimed he was wrong in the thread.

Not sure how that equates to "many posts" and "happens all the time"?

Be great if it never happened in any league but with all of the variables and options in setting up one's game it may take awhile to "clean up" all instances. I have yet to see anyone post the issue where it couldn't be fixed or at least explained by available roster spots.

Just because someone uses a default league setup doesn't mean it can't cause an issue. IIRC when full minors were added to OOTP the lowest level minors defaulted to either 25 or 28 man rosters which caused S\R issues. Haven't setup a league in a long time but wouldn't be surprised if I was told that lowest level minors now default to 35 or more roster spots. If they don't they probably should. Just as stock independents may need a bigger reserve roster by default?

Maybe you've noted a new cause with an inaugural draft? I'm sure a "totally new start" like that causes the AI to do more evaluations than a mature league, which is pretty much what I suggested. If that doesn't shake out over time I think it should be ticketed along with a league file for Markus and co. to check out. Just my 2 cents.

FWIW a few versions ago I watched transactions closely when sign\release first came up. Almost immediately expanding lowest level minors came up as the suggested fix. I expanded my lowest level as suggested and also enabled ghost players(ghosts more to cut down on micromanagement than fix S\R, but maybe it helps too?) With those changes I never saw a S\R issue in my game.

There are 7 on the OOTP16 forum with "Borkholder" and 66 on the OOTP boards in total. Given that everyone knows what that means, I think that's enough to count as many - it's frequent enough that it has it's own name!

[SirMichaelJordan]

Set roster limit to unlimited or 40 at the lowest.

Same goes for reserve rosters. Problem hurts indy leagues (reserve roster) because setting those to unlimited would have up to 99 players in their system with players just sitting in limbo.

Pick your poison, I've seen the release problem with indy teams with a limit of 40 but not as severe just some unexplainable roster cuts here and there.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by hluraven

There are 7 on the OOTP16 forum with "Borkholder" and 66 on the OOTP boards in total. Given that everyone knows what that means, I think that's enough to count as many - it's frequent enough that it has it's own name!

Got some links? I've searched "Borkholder" and come up with nothing. Sign and release tags only show 14 threads in GD and clicking into each shows only 3 actually talk about the "sign and release" issue. The rest of the hits only have the words sign or release being used in other context.

Only shows 3 posts in bug thread with two of those involving the word "sign" and owner goals, only 1 is talking "sign and release" in the context of this thread.

I'd be interested in reading those 66 posts to see if any of those issues were not caused and then solved with roster limit changes.

Just hit me, you said 7 posts(or threads?) in the v16 forum so the other 66 are from all previous versions? My post clearly stated v16 forum and that's the only version I am discussing. No reason to go back to others as there won't be any fixes coming to them. The old posts are relevant in that they show a problem that users "think" still exists in v16 on a scale of "many" when if fact it does not (66 over all previous versions does not make a "many" IMHO). Is that 66 different users or 66 posts with repeats by a few users?

Keep in mind the game also notes in setup to NOT set your lowest level team's roster to less than 35 players and has done this for several versions IIRC. So, until it is shown that roster spots being made available does not fix this issue I'll stand by my post, IE a small issue reported and re-reported by very few users that either don't know to adjust the lowest level roster limits or simply won't do it at all for whatever reason.

[The Wolf]

Sweed is correct. It is a rare issue, and it always turns out to be caused by the user's league settings. It's also fixable.

[ra7c7er]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Sweed is correct. It is a rare issue, and it always turns out to be caused by the user's league settings. It's also fixable.

So if it's "user's league settings" that means the starting template for indy leagues is bugged because as I said this league is box stock.

Changing rosters to unlimited or active rosters to 35 isn't a fix it's a gloss over. If I wanted that many players on a team I'd create a minor league.

Originally Posted by Sweed

Got some links? I've searched "Borkholder" and come up with nothing. Sign and release tags only show 14 threads in GD and clicking into each shows only 3 actually talk about the "sign and release" issue. The rest of the hits only have the words sign or release being used in other context.

Only shows 3 posts in bug thread with two of those involving the word "sign" and owner goals, only 1 is talking "sign and release" in the context of this thread.

I'd be interested in reading those 66 posts to see if any of those issues were not caused and then solved with roster limit changes.

Just hit me, you said 7 posts(or threads?) in the v16 forum so the other 66 are from all previous versions? My post clearly stated v16 forum and that's the only version I am discussing. No reason to go back to others as there won't be any fixes coming to them. The old posts are relevant in that they show a problem that users "think" still exists in v16 on a scale of "many" when if fact it does not (66 over all previous versions does not make a "many" IMHO). Is that 66 different users or 66 posts with repeats by a few users?

Keep in mind the game also notes in setup to NOT set your lowest level team's roster to less than 35 players and has done this for several versions IIRC. So, until it is shown that roster spots being made available does not fix this issue I'll stand by my post, IE a small issue reported and re-reported by very few users that either don't know to adjust the lowest level roster limits or simply won't do it at all for whatever reason.

Saying setting league to a roster size of 40 doesn't help either 25 active roster + 15 reserve = 40. SO that is actually higher then the minimum. I read in a post from OOTP15 when using reserve rosters you should combine the number of players.

And yes this has been a problem for several years now. Just because not many have posted about it YET in OOTP16 doesn't mean it still isn't a persistent issue. As I said many people just don't notice it happening because they don't look at every AI team in there league. Since it doesn't happen to Human controlled teams because Humans usually control the rosters. Why not create a box stock Indy league yourself so you can actually see it happen yourself.

The reason I put the smiley face in the thread title is because it's not a fixable issue. A dev came on a post in a OOTP15 thread and said they didn't really know why it was happening (same with minor league callups and sending back down immediately over and over).

I know it's not a fixable issue but I still made a bug report. Eventually someone will stumble upon the cause. Ultimately the reason I posted it up here was because of all the threads I've seen on the issue this is the worst I've seen it in the off-season.

[Painmantle]

if there are "Many" Post about it why do we need another one?

[SirMichaelJordan]

Preaching to the choir.

[ra7c7er]

Originally Posted by Painmantle

if there are "Many" Post about it why do we need another one?

Originally Posted by SirMichaelJordan

Preaching to the choir.

Because it isn't fixed yet.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Bug thread.

Its a known issue, if that post about Markus saying its working as intended then raise the issue of the same team keep signing and releasing the same players.

The game even tells you that it is not a good idea to set roster limits to the lowest minor league (and league with reserve rosters)

[ra7c7er]

Originally Posted by SirMichaelJordan

Bug thread.

Its a known issue, if that post about Markus saying its working as intended then raise the issue of the same team keep signing and releasing the same players.

The game even tells you that it is not a good idea to set roster limits to the lowest minor league (and league with reserve rosters)

The problem with that is it's unrealistic to such an extreme that it needs worked on. I'm ok with the signing and releasing (as i said it's more funny then anything else) but if you can have a league of just one Indy league then you shouldn't have to have a unlimited reserve roster and a minimum reserve size of 35. That's pointless. It's one league and should on it's own operate just like any other league. At the point you're having a 35 man roster and a unlimited reserve roster you might as well make a minor league and turn the league in a MLB type league.

Also if the game NEEDS minimums then the default for the league type SHOULD be the minimum.

[The Wolf]

It's not the game's fault.

[ra7c7er]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

It's not the game's fault.

It's not the games fault the game has a flaw? Or that the devs can't figure out how to fix it? Or that the default league settings aren't what the devs recommend? Sounds to me like it is the games fault.

As I said it's more comical then anything else and I'll take realism over 40 man rosters and unlimited reserve roster sizes. Perhaps down the road the devs will work on indy and international and minor leagues to try and prevent this from happening.

[SirMichaelJordan]

When you say default settings are you talking about the quick start? I don't think any of the quick start settings are default.

[ra7c7er]

Originally Posted by SirMichaelJordan

When you say default settings are you talking about the quick start? I don't think any of the quick start settings are default.

No I'm talking the in game settings when you chose league type.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by ra7c7er

So if it's "user's league settings" that means the starting template for indy leagues is bugged because as I said this league is box stock.

Changing rosters to unlimited or active rosters to 35 isn't a fix it's a gloss over. If I wanted that many players on a team I'd create a minor league.




Saying setting league to a roster size of 40 doesn't help either 25 active roster + 15 reserve = 40. SO that is actually higher then the minimum. I read in a post from OOTP15 when using reserve rosters you should combine the number of players.

And yes this has been a problem for several years now. Just because not many have posted about it YET in OOTP16 doesn't mean it still isn't a persistent issue. As I said many people just don't notice it happening because they don't look at every AI team in there league. Since it doesn't happen to Human controlled teams because Humans usually control the rosters. Why not create a box stock Indy league yourself so you can actually see it happen yourself.

The reason I put the smiley face in the thread title is because it's not a fixable issue. A dev came on a post in a OOTP15 thread and said they didn't really know why it was happening (same with minor league callups and sending back down immediately over and over).

I know it's not a fixable issue but I still made a bug report. Eventually someone will stumble upon the cause. Ultimately the reason I posted it up here was because of all the threads I've seen on the issue this is the worst I've seen it in the off-season.

Heading out the door here in a minute so response won't be detailed

The 35 suggested minimum is for you lowest minor league club, not the top level club, IE your independent team nor you independent team plus 15 to make 40. The default setting then should be "unlimited" for an independent league as this does fix the issue you say is un-fixable. If 50 is the current max for reserve in this type of league and unlimited is not something you want then petition for a reserve roster size of ~150. That is what you will get with 5 levels of minors with 28 men and the bottom team at 35(note the suggested minimum in league setup instructions).

The AI is not going to be able to handle a club well with that small a player pool, period. It's just not, not with injury, players aging, developing or not developing, and throw in the AI uses both ratings and stats to make decisions. Maybe as the game develops in the future this will be improved upon? Who knows, it will depend on time vs reward whether it is worth the coding effort.

The issue is fixable despite you saying it is not and it's been fixable for many versions. You just have to "pick your poison" as SMJ said. You want small rosters, live with the issue. You want the issue fixed, live with a large reserve roster. Simple as that.

[frangipard]

I'm not even sure it's all that unrealistic. In the NFL, which has a 53 man roster and a 10 man reserve, it's become pretty common practice for teams to have a guy that's on the bubble who gets released and resigned multiple times a year. 13 in one year is extreme, but stuff happens ...

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