Replace AI trade difficulty levels with sliding scales.

One Post Wonder · 10-03-2014, 10:46 AM

In all the years I've played OOTP, I've never found a trade difficulty setting I've been comfortable using.

On anything less than hard, I can take any team and obliterate the rest of the league within 3 years unless I use house rules and I hate using house rules. House rules are like letting my nephew win at a board game. I know the AI is only being competitive because I am letting it be competitive. But on hard or above, I have to give up 2 starting caliber players (at least) in order to pick up a AAAA guy that I'm just using to fill a hole. The AI on hard turns down trades that I know would benefit it, that I'd gladly make if I were them and that lowers the immersion.

I'm guessing the way the code works is that an AI team will look at a player and add up his rating/stats, apply some modifiers based on need, salary, and rebuilding/win now mode, and assign him a point value. On easy, perhaps the human player will need to offer .5 * that point value to the AI in order to get the player. On very hard, it feels something like 10 times the point value.

I've heard Average is harder now with the latest patch (I'm still on OOTP14, myself), but that's not the ticket. Just making one difficulty easier or harder won't work, because there's too much gap between levels and human players have different levels of skill.

So why not drop the levels altogether and replace them with sliders that might range from 1 to 100? Or 1 to 1000? If the code works like I listed, it shouldn't make any difference whether there are 5 options for trade difficulties or 500.

tejdog1 · 10-03-2014, 02:38 PM

All of my yesses. Please.

cat88 · 10-18-2014, 06:54 AM

I agree. The setting Easy for AI Trade Difficulty is great but not fair to the AI. Then one setting up which is Average is too unfair for the player.
There needs to be either more settings that are more balanced or maybe a slider system would work. That will make the game more competitive. I find the Average setting just too hard to make trades. The easy setting is just too easy :")

ra7c7er · 10-18-2014, 09:55 AM

The game shouldn't have to make up for the fact that people are exploiting game modes that are easier than the players ability.

If they went from settings to a scale people would just exploit the scale. It's changing the game but not stopping people from exploiting the game.

To the OP since you are still playing 14 you don't know but they made the difficulty for EVERY setting harder not just average. Plus shop a player is different than it was in 14. Also whats wrong with just playing on hard?

Also trades aren't harder now it just takes more time to find trades.

RchW · 10-18-2014, 10:41 AM

A sliding scale is just a tool. Very often it is used to fool you into thinking there are microscopic changes while in fact there is a step scale controlling anyway. Tiny differences would have to be programmed and would take forever if you wanted real variation on say a 100 point scale. Even then the best you could do would be variation every 10-20 points (anything else would be useless repetition) in return for hours of programming and bugs.

It's all about the return on investment.

PSUColonel · 10-18-2014, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cat88

I agree. The setting Easy for AI Trade Difficulty is great but not fair to the AI. Then one setting up which is Average is too unfair for the player.
There needs to be either more settings that are more balanced or maybe a slider system would work. That will make the game more competitive. I find the Average setting just too hard to make trades. The easy setting is just too easy :")

This is not true...you need to look for good trades to make..

I am playing on very hard, and have found some very good trades. You have to work at it!! As it should be

alberta · 10-18-2014, 11:27 PM

I would like to be able to configure how many players can be included in any one trade, currently fixed at up to 5 players per team - would like to adjust it to be 1-5.

Thanks for considering this suggestion.

One Post Wonder · 10-20-2014, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

A sliding scale is just a tool. Very often it is used to fool you into thinking there are microscopic changes while in fact there is a step scale controlling anyway. Tiny differences would have to be programmed and would take forever if you wanted real variation on say a 100 point scale. Even then the best you could do would be variation every 10-20 points (anything else would be useless repetition) in return for hours of programming and bugs.

It's all about the return on investment.

Oh, I'm sure they would use increments. I was just throwing numbers out before, and having even a 0-100 difficulty scale would probably be overkill. But my main point is that OOTP needs far more variation in the difficulty settings than what it has now. I would say something like 20 different difficulty levels in order to suit everyone.

The slider is just presentation. Once you get above five different options, a UI starts to look ragged unless you're using a slider IMO. Though perhaps there's something else that could accomplish the same thing while looking prettier than a slider.

I think from a programming perspective (and of course I have no idea what the code looks like), that they would only have to change the assignment of the multiplier, the difficulty setting, in one place. Unless I'm missing something, it doesn't sound like it would be a major project.

One Post Wonder · 10-20-2014, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

This is not true...you need to look for good trades to make..

I am playing on very hard, and have found some very good trades. You have to work at it!! As it should be

Can you show an example of a trade you made with the AI on Very Hard that we can look at and say, 'Yeah, both teams got an equal amount of talent in that one? I'd make that trade from either side.'

The closest I've come to that Nirvana myself is setting the trade AI on hard, but then setting 'highly values prospects' if I'm selling prospects and vice versa if I'm trading veterans. It seems to give me something that is harder than 'Average' and slightly less hard than 'Hard'.

If you're able to work out equitable trades on Very Hard, you should post a guide if you haven't done so and you have the time. I think a lot of people would really like to read something like that.

One Post Wonder · 10-20-2014, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ra7c7er

The game shouldn't have to make up for the fact that people are exploiting game modes that are easier than the players ability.

If they went from settings to a scale people would just exploit the scale. It's changing the game but not stopping people from exploiting the game.

To the OP since you are still playing 14 you don't know but they made the difficulty for EVERY setting harder not just average. Plus shop a player is different than it was in 14. Also whats wrong with just playing on hard?

Also trades aren't harder now it just takes more time to find trades.

What you might call 'exploiting the game' is what someone else might call 'Living the fantasy the way they want to live it'. It's a sandbox, not a job. You can't change how people want to play, nor should you try.

Anyway I don't think people are wanting to exploit the AI. If they wanted that, they'd just play on Very Easy. What they want is to make trades where each side gets a reasonably equal amount of talent, within the framework of the game, with no house rules.

I don't know what the shop player feature is like now, but just making all of the levels harder or easier isn't the problem. The problem is that there are too few levels and the gap between them is too big. My perfect level on OOTP14 would probably be about 60% of the way between average and hard. Maybe now average would work for me, but now a player who was happy with average before doesn't have an appropriate difficulty level.

I've said why I didn't like playing on a difficulty level that, in my view, is too hard. The AI on a hard setting turns down trades that, if I were on the other side, I'd take in a heartbeat. I might have a team that won 97 games and the AI doesn't like anyone on my roster, wouldn't even pay $1 for them or give me a crap prospect, except for the top 3 players. On hard I maybe make 1 trade a year and that's only when I both have a logjam and am really desperate to fill a hole. It's not much different than turning trades off.

ra7c7er · 10-20-2014, 03:02 PM

Double post somehow.

ra7c7er · 10-20-2014, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by One Post Wonder

What you might call 'exploiting the game' is what someone else might call 'Living the fantasy the way they want to live it'. It's a sandbox, not a job. You can't change how people want to play, nor should you try.

Anyway I don't think people are wanting to exploit the AI. If they wanted that, they'd just play on Very Easy. What they want is to make trades where each side gets a reasonably equal amount of talent, within the framework of the game, with no house rules.

I don't know what the shop player feature is like now, but just making all of the levels harder or easier isn't the problem. The problem is that there are too few levels and the gap between them is too big. My perfect level on OOTP14 would probably be about 60% of the way between average and hard. Maybe now average would work for me, but now a player who was happy with average before doesn't have an appropriate difficulty level.

I've said why I didn't like playing on a difficulty level that, in my view, is too hard. The AI on a hard setting turns down trades that, if I were on the other side, I'd take in a heartbeat. I might have a team that won 97 games and the AI doesn't like anyone on my roster, wouldn't even pay $1 for them or give me a crap prospect, except for the top 3 players. On hard I maybe make 1 trade a year and that's only when I both have a logjam and am really desperate to fill a hole. It's not much different than turning trades off.

Adding more levels of difficulty isn't going to fix anything. The scale you want isn't the scale the next guy will want and so on. Changing it from a standard that most games use (can anyone name more than a single other game that uses more than 5 levels of AI difficulty?) to something different is going to solve anything. It's just going to give people more options they they aren't going to use. Five levels is more than enough. The levels just need to be evened out more and trading needs to be overhauled.

What needs to be done is have more ability to see why the AI is turning down trades. What does the AI know about a player that as a human player we don't see. And honestly trading needs to be overhauled even outside of the difficulty right now it's clunky and not presented well.

Or perhaps the game should just go the route of Madden and other big box games and not have levels just go on a player scale so all the trades are even all the time.

Also as I said in multiple other posts about AI and trading. The reason developers (not just OOTP but nearly every sports sim developer) makes the AI so hard to trade with is they have to. Humans will always be able to take advantage of the AI which is why AI is one of the most discussed parts of games. It's always either to easy or to hard. Devs lean towards the hard side because it makes for a better experience even if it is hard.

One Post Wonder · 10-20-2014, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ra7c7er

Changing it from a standard that most games use (can anyone name more than a single other game that uses more than 5 levels of AI difficulty?)

Humans will always be able to take advantage of the AI which is why AI is one of the most discussed parts of games. It's always either to easy or to hard.

That's the thing. It is always done a certain way and it is always wrong. I can't name any games off the top of my head that have more than 5 difficulty levels, but I can name a lot of games that I didn't enjoy as much as I could have because level x was too easy for me and level x+1 was too hard.

This especially sticks out in OOTP because trade is so important in baseball, you can't overcome mediocrity or underperform because of your fast twitch controller skills, and a game of OOTP runs a lot more seasons than most other GM management simulators.

So sure, adding levels isn't a common solution but I think on this occasion, it would work well.

Though another way would be perhaps keeping just 5 levels, but narrowing the gaps between them by reducing the extremes (does anyone play on 'Very Easy')? It's all about the size of the gaps for me... I'd like the gaps to be as small as possible or at least considerably smaller than they are now.

Quote:

What needs to be done is have more ability to see why the AI is turning down trades. What does the AI know about a player that as a human player we don't see

This idea would be great if there were a way of implementing it well. How would you lay that out? Perhaps something where it tells you the weighted value of each player and why - like a breakdown of what the AI likes and doesn't like. But if you hand out too much numerical information, the process gets gamey. If you try and present it in a human way, it won't look quite right and you'll sometimes get statements that sound illogical.

Lukas Berger · 10-20-2014, 09:31 PM

It's worth clearing up what folks are talking about here. Are you guys talking about the trade settings now, or those from the earlier patches in OOTP15 or in previous years?

Because somewhere around the 3rd or 4th patch Markus tweaked the trade settings.

So now every level is pretty much 80% harder than before. So easy is roughly equal to the old average, average to the old hard etc.

ra7c7er · 10-20-2014, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by One Post Wonder

That's the thing. It is always done a certain way and it is always wrong. I can't name any games off the top of my head that have more than 5 difficulty levels, but I can name a lot of games that I didn't enjoy as much as I could have because level x was too easy for me and level x+1 was too hard.

This especially sticks out in OOTP because trade is so important in baseball, you can't overcome mediocrity or underperform because of your fast twitch controller skills, and a game of OOTP runs a lot more seasons than most other GM management simulators.

So sure, adding levels isn't a common solution but I think on this occasion, it would work well.

Though another way would be perhaps keeping just 5 levels, but narrowing the gaps between them by reducing the extremes (does anyone play on 'Very Easy')? It's all about the size of the gaps for me... I'd like the gaps to be as small as possible or at least considerably smaller than they are now.

This idea would be great if there were a way of implementing it well. How would you lay that out? Perhaps something where it tells you the weighted value of each player and why - like a breakdown of what the AI likes and doesn't like. But if you hand out too much numerical information, the process gets gamey. If you try and present it in a human way, it won't look quite right and you'll sometimes get statements that sound illogical.

I agree with that. Eliminate very easy and very hard (by actual difficulty) and close the gaps between the rest. I think that would more than likely appease 90% of the masses. So instead of it being like this...

Very Easy - Easy - Average - Hard - Very Hard

you'd have

Easy - New Level - Average - New Level - Hard

Obviously you'd change the names of easy and hard to represent the extremes.

ra7c7er · 10-20-2014, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lukasberger

It's worth clearing up what folks are talking about here. Are you guys talking about the trade settings now, or those from the earlier patches in OOTP15 or in previous years?

Because somewhere around the 3rd or 4th patch Markus tweaked the trade settings.

So now every level is pretty much 80% harder than before. So easy is roughly equal to the old average, average to the old hard etc.

Yeah it is a bit annoying the OP is talking about OOTP 14 (and admits never playing 15 or the updated trading settings) but everyone else is talking about 15... i think.

One Post Wonder · 10-20-2014, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lukasberger

It's worth clearing up what folks are talking about here. Are you guys talking about the trade settings now, or those from the earlier patches in OOTP15 or in previous years?

Because somewhere around the 3rd or 4th patch Markus tweaked the trade settings.

So now every level is pretty much 80% harder than before. So easy is roughly equal to the old average, average to the old hard etc.

Yes, that's been explained to me. I'll reiterate that I'm still on 14. But when I first made the OP, I assumed we still had a problem since trade AI difficulty has been an ongoing back and forth since... well, as long as I can remember, and I know 15 still had the same number of difficulty levels as 14.

But I've kept at it because I think my point of 'the gaps are too big' still applies to the latest version - at least that's how I'm taking the agreement that I'm getting from some people. The difficulty settings are different, but the bands are not more narrow, correct?

marc5477 · 11-05-2014, 10:01 AM

I agree that trading needs a look. I played on normal for a while and although things are ok 90% of the time, every now and then the AI makes me scratch my head. For instance, I wanted to pick up a type A free agent, so before doing so I wanted to get rid of my 1st, 2nd and 3rd round draft picks (because I was going to lose the highest anyway from the signing).

I cannot trade a 3rd round pick for a 4th round pick... rofl. Yep, when I try, the AI wants more stuff every time. I was hoping to get a 4th and maybe something in the teens but I cannot even trade down properly.

Sometimes, the AI ranks low cur/pot players very highly. It is rare, but when it happens it is very curious and I am able to trade a 20/20 (out of 80) for a 2nd or 3rd round pick. A few hours ago I traded a 30 year old 20/20 8/6/3/12 player for a 5th round pick... granted I had him on an awesome contract with 5 years remaining ($200k in 1994 dollars), but still it seemed off.

The season prior, I was trying to unload a 28 year old ace (75/68) with 3 years of 15+ wins and an awesome contract ($800k for another 3 years) and the best offer I received were closers lol. No one would even give me a 1st round pick for him. He is awesome with 18 stamina and his era averaged about 2.8 over 3 years. I really needed some infielders and no one would trade those straight up either even when they had weakness in rotation and the batter was iffy.

Another time, I picked up an international 30 year old ace with ratings 15/16/16 and 4 pitches over 15. Granted his stamina was only 6, but absolutely no one wanted him and ended up signing him in FA for $300k (1992 dollars) for 6 years... he went on to win 16 games with an era of 3.5. The funny thing about him however, is that his cur/pot was always stuck at 20/20 although he was clearly awesome. Of course, when you try to trade this guy, you cant even get an 11 round pick from the AI lol.

PSUColonel · 12-21-2014, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by One Post Wonder

Can you show an example of a trade you made with the AI on Very Hard that we can look at and say, 'Yeah, both teams got an equal amount of talent in that one? I'd make that trade from either side.'

The closest I've come to that Nirvana myself is setting the trade AI on hard, but then setting 'highly values prospects' if I'm selling prospects and vice versa if I'm trading veterans. It seems to give me something that is harder than 'Average' and slightly less hard than 'Hard'.

If you're able to work out equitable trades on Very Hard, you should post a guide if you haven't done so and you have the time. I think a lot of people would really like to read something like that.

I am sorry this has taken so long....but honestly you need to look at the needs of the team you are dealing with firstly. The AI does not really value highly paid veterans either...by default, it prefers young players or prospect. Money is a big thing for the AI...it often wants to unload it's own expensive players, and does not want yours!

You need to use the "make this work now" a lot....if you aren't getting any response, the AI simply does not want what you are dealing, or does not want to give up what you are after. Many times a good starting point to gauge interest, is to shop one of your players, and see what teams respond. It is a good place to start negotiating since you know there is at least "some" interest there.

Hope this helps

10-03-2014, 10:46 AM	#1
One Post Wonder All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 538	Replace AI trade difficulty levels with sliding scales. In all the years I've played OOTP, I've never found a trade difficulty setting I've been comfortable using. On anything less than hard, I can take any team and obliterate the rest of the league within 3 years unless I use house rules and I hate using house rules. House rules are like letting my nephew win at a board game. I know the AI is only being competitive because I am letting it be competitive. But on hard or above, I have to give up 2 starting caliber players (at least) in order to pick up a AAAA guy that I'm just using to fill a hole. The AI on hard turns down trades that I know would benefit it, that I'd gladly make if I were them and that lowers the immersion. I'm guessing the way the code works is that an AI team will look at a player and add up his rating/stats, apply some modifiers based on need, salary, and rebuilding/win now mode, and assign him a point value. On easy, perhaps the human player will need to offer .5 * that point value to the AI in order to get the player. On very hard, it feels something like 10 times the point value. I've heard Average is harder now with the latest patch (I'm still on OOTP14, myself), but that's not the ticket. Just making one difficulty easier or harder won't work, because there's too much gap between levels and human players have different levels of skill. So why not drop the levels altogether and replace them with sliders that might range from 1 to 100? Or 1 to 1000? If the code works like I listed, it shouldn't make any difference whether there are 5 options for trade difficulties or 500. Last edited by One Post Wonder; 10-03-2014 at 10:50 AM.

10-03-2014, 02:38 PM	#2
tejdog1 All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Danbury, CT Posts: 1,654	All of my yesses. Please. __________________ It's amazing How you make your face just like a wall How you take your heart and turn it off How I turn my head and lose it all And it's unnerving How just one move puts me by myself There you go just trusting someone else Now I know I put us both through hell ~Matchbox 20, "Leave" Everyone knows it's spelled "TRAID", not trade

10-18-2014, 10:41 AM	#5
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	A sliding scale is just a tool. Very often it is used to fool you into thinking there are microscopic changes while in fact there is a step scale controlling anyway. Tiny differences would have to be programmed and would take forever if you wanted real variation on say a 100 point scale. Even then the best you could do would be variation every 10-20 points (anything else would be useless repetition) in return for hours of programming and bugs. It's all about the return on investment. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

10-20-2014, 03:02 PM	#11
ra7c7er All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 1,098	Double post somehow. Last edited by ra7c7er; 10-20-2014 at 03:10 PM.

11-05-2014, 10:01 AM	#18
marc5477 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 146	I agree that trading needs a look. I played on normal for a while and although things are ok 90% of the time, every now and then the AI makes me scratch my head. For instance, I wanted to pick up a type A free agent, so before doing so I wanted to get rid of my 1st, 2nd and 3rd round draft picks (because I was going to lose the highest anyway from the signing). I cannot trade a 3rd round pick for a 4th round pick... rofl. Yep, when I try, the AI wants more stuff every time. I was hoping to get a 4th and maybe something in the teens but I cannot even trade down properly. Sometimes, the AI ranks low cur/pot players very highly. It is rare, but when it happens it is very curious and I am able to trade a 20/20 (out of 80) for a 2nd or 3rd round pick. A few hours ago I traded a 30 year old 20/20 8/6/3/12 player for a 5th round pick... granted I had him on an awesome contract with 5 years remaining ($200k in 1994 dollars), but still it seemed off. The season prior, I was trying to unload a 28 year old ace (75/68) with 3 years of 15+ wins and an awesome contract ($800k for another 3 years) and the best offer I received were closers lol. No one would even give me a 1st round pick for him. He is awesome with 18 stamina and his era averaged about 2.8 over 3 years. I really needed some infielders and no one would trade those straight up either even when they had weakness in rotation and the batter was iffy. Another time, I picked up an international 30 year old ace with ratings 15/16/16 and 4 pitches over 15. Granted his stamina was only 6, but absolutely no one wanted him and ended up signing him in FA for $300k (1992 dollars) for 6 years... he went on to win 16 games with an era of 3.5. The funny thing about him however, is that his cur/pot was always stuck at 20/20 although he was clearly awesome. Of course, when you try to trade this guy, you cant even get an 11 round pick from the AI lol. Last edited by marc5477; 11-05-2014 at 10:06 AM.

10-18-2014, 06:54 AM	#3
cat88 Bat Boy Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: NY Posts: 14	I agree. The setting Easy for AI Trade Difficulty is great but not fair to the AI. Then one setting up which is Average is too unfair for the player. There needs to be either more settings that are more balanced or maybe a slider system would work. That will make the game more competitive. I find the Average setting just too hard to make trades. The easy setting is just too easy :")

10-18-2014, 09:55 AM	#4
ra7c7er All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 1,098	The game shouldn't have to make up for the fact that people are exploiting game modes that are easier than the players ability. If they went from settings to a scale people would just exploit the scale. It's changing the game but not stopping people from exploiting the game. To the OP since you are still playing 14 you don't know but they made the difficulty for EVERY setting harder not just average. Plus shop a player is different than it was in 14. Also whats wrong with just playing on hard? Also trades aren't harder now it just takes more time to find trades.

10-18-2014, 11:27 PM	#7
alberta Bat Boy Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 1	I would like to be able to configure how many players can be included in any one trade, currently fixed at up to 5 players per team - would like to adjust it to be 1-5. Thanks for considering this suggestion.

10-20-2014, 09:31 PM	#14
Lukas Berger OOTP Developments Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Nice, Côte d'Azur, France Posts: 22,201	It's worth clearing up what folks are talking about here. Are you guys talking about the trade settings now, or those from the earlier patches in OOTP15 or in previous years? Because somewhere around the 3rd or 4th patch Markus tweaked the trade settings. So now every level is pretty much 80% harder than before. So easy is roughly equal to the old average, average to the old hard etc.