Defense vs Offense Debate

[Mr. Baseball]

I've been playing around with my online league team the last season, trading a lot of big bats for big-time fielders with average offensive skills to see if this would be a successful approach to winning. In theory, if you had extremely good pitching (bullpen and rotation) along with 8 Top Fielder type fielders in the lineup, would you be more successful than a team with the same pitching, average fielding and several stud hitters?

Let's say for sake of example that I construct a team where every single one of my starting position players has Gold Glove potential at their position, but they collectively post team averages of .240 batting and .300 OBP...could this team win if the pitching is good enough or do you need at least some offense?

I'm not talking about eight 'good' fielders. I'm talking about eight guys who are maxed out in almost every defensive rating. Guys with 10/10's across the board, but project to bat .240/.300...

[Gai1997]

I think if the pitching is amazing, then yes. You can win in anything with an elite starting pitching.

[Mr. Baseball]

Originally Posted by Gai1997

I think if the pitching is amazing, then yes. You can win in anything with an elite starting pitching.

But would you prefer the fielding studs over the offensive studs?

[Honorable_Pawn]

Pitching and defense wins in OOTP and IRL.

[tjw4]

I disagree...I have had a gold glover at 3b, C, SS, LF, CF, RF and three of these guys were very good players 15/20 in most offensive categories and I still failed to make the playoffs 2 years in a row with the cy young winner and 2 other good starting pitchers as well as a closer with 19/15/13...you need offense to win in this game, fielding just wont cut it no matter how good it is..with this team I constantly lead the league in almost all pitching and fielding stats and I cant get anything done because my batting is as a whole about 12/15 in the AL.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Gai1997

I think if the pitching is amazing, then yes. You can win in anything with an elite starting pitching.

Not in OOTP.

My dominant pitchers turn into pumpkins in the playoffs.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Originally Posted by Honorable_Pawn

Pitching and defense wins in OOTP and IRL.

Yea The mets won 96 games in my recent season despite hitting below .240

Defense and pitching was amazing though.

They made it all the way to the NLCS

[The Wolf]

A run saved is just as valuable as a run scored.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by RchW

Not in OOTP.

My dominant pitchers turn into pumpkins in the playoffs.

While I am sorry for you, I'm glad to know that it's not just me that this happens to.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

A run saved is just as valuable as a run scored.

not to mention, it's cheaper to save runs than score them...at least from a lineup point of view..pitching? not so much.

[Honorable_Pawn]

Bingo.


A HR costs a million dollars. A good play at SS costs nothing.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by tjw4

I disagree...I have had a gold glover at 3b, C, SS, LF, CF, RF and three of these guys were very good players 15/20 in most offensive categories and I still failed to make the playoffs 2 years in a row with the cy young winner and 2 other good starting pitchers as well as a closer with 19/15/13...you need offense to win in this game, fielding just wont cut it no matter how good it is..with this team I constantly lead the league in almost all pitching and fielding stats and I cant get anything done because my batting is as a whole about 12/15 in the AL.

Sounds like the '04 and '05 Astros. Clemens had way too many 1-0 losses and 0-0 no decisions when he was pulled.

I think fielding and pitching are slightly more important. Honestly, I go pretty traditional I am ok with light hitters who are fast and can field up the middle. I look for fielding primarily at 2B, SS, CF, and C. I really don't care much how good of a fielder my 1B is as long as he doesn't have a low error rating. 3B is a little more D but offense is still more important. So my power and offense is usually in 1B and corner OF.

I grew up watching 70's and 80's baseball. I build my teams similarly not like the modern I need power every where teams. I firmly believe one weak hitter who is an excellent CF, SS, or C can be made up for especially with the DH. Go beyond 2 and you are going to have some problems.

For up the middle D is key. 3B and corner OF is much more even while 1B it is all about O.

As the importance of fielding depends on your pitchers. Average pitchers that hitters hit a lot of ground balls with look like stars with a solid D. Fly ball/K pitchers really just need good OF. The IF becomes a little less important. If I have a lot of groundball pitchers I elevate IF D. If I have a lot of fly ball pitchers my OF D becomes more important.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

A run saved is just as valuable as a run scored.

True but if can't score you own runs it really doesn't matter how much the other guy scores!

[sc_superstar]

Offense/Defense combo players > Defense/Pitching > Offense/Pitching

I've tested them using full drafts. Of all the teams I built, the best ones were by far success-wise were ones with lackluster starting pitching, but guys who could hit and field. They dont all have to be juggernaut power hitters, but everyone should be able to hit .275+, and be able to do something else (power, speed, OBP or a combination)

Its hard to do over a long period of time, but if your meticulous you can do it. I have also found having a solid bullpen is helpful too (and cheaper than SP's)

I like the Pitching/D teams and I do build them too, but they always seem to lose way too many games when your starter gives up 1-3 early runs and you cant seem to claw back, and they end up being the teams that win 85-90 games and miss the playoffs

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

True but if can't score you own runs it really doesn't matter how much the other guy scores!

Even offensively weak teams can usually score a run or two. The trick for them is to make sure that other team scores less.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by sc_superstar

I like the Pitching/D teams and I do build them too, but they always seem to lose way too many games when your starter gives up 1-3 early runs and you cant seem to claw back, and they end up being the teams that win 85-90 games and miss the playoffs

Try mixing excellent ground ball pitchers with a defensively excellent infield. The results will surprise you.

[Drstrangelove]

Originally Posted by Mr. Baseball

I've been playing around with my online league team the last season, trading a lot of big bats for big-time fielders with average offensive skills to see if this would be a successful approach to winning. In theory, if you had extremely good pitching (bullpen and rotation) along with 8 Top Fielder type fielders in the lineup, would you be more successful than a team with the same pitching, average fielding and several stud hitters?

Let's say for sake of example that I construct a team where every single one of my starting position players has Gold Glove potential at their position, but they collectively post team averages of .240 batting and .300 OBP...could this team win if the pitching is good enough or do you need at least some offense?

I'm not talking about eight 'good' fielders. I'm talking about eight guys who are maxed out in almost every defensive rating. Guys with 10/10's across the board, but project to bat .240/.300...

You have a lot of examples here.


"In theory, if you had extremely good pitching (bullpen and rotation) along with 8 Top Fielder type fielders in the lineup, would you be more successful than a team with the same pitching, average fielding and several stud hitters?"

This example holds pitching static, so it's comparing "8 Top Fielders" to a team with "several stud hitters." Let's assume the fielders are all average hitters, that the stud hitters are all average fielders and that the remaining players on the "studs" team are average at hitting and fielding.

I have to define "Top" and "stud" and "several" since you didn't, so I'll call it anyone who had a # 200 ranked season of all time in their WAR category as "stud" and "Top". I'll count several as 4. That would be 2.8 WAR for defense and 7.8 WAR for offense.

Let's give the average player 2.2 WAR (1.8 war for average offense and position and .4 for average defense).

The defense team gets 8*(1.8+2.8) = 36.8
The offense team gets 4*(7.8+.4) + 4*(1.8+.4) = 32.8 + 8.8 = 41.6

So offense wins.

For the sake of argument, I looked up the best single season defensive WAR at each position (1960-2013). The total was 32.1. For offensive WAR, I chose 1B, 3B, RF, LF. Total was 41.6.

Using those #'s:

The defense team gets 8*(1.8) + 32.1 = 46.5
The offense team gets 41.6+4*(.4) + 4*(1.8+.4) = 41.6+1.6 +7.2+1.6 = 52.0

Offense still wins.

[Manny42]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Try mixing excellent ground ball pitchers with a defensively excellent infield. The results will surprise you.

This is how I build my teams and I've had great success

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Manny42

This is how I build my teams and I've had great success

Great minds think alike. Ours do too!

[Dyzalot]

I think there is much more difference between the best and worst hitters than there is between the best and worst fielders in the MLB as that difference pertains to helping to win games.