Is there a Defensive Fielding Potential?

[wuttang]

I can see batting and pitching potential, especially when I go into the editor, but couldn't find any Fielding related Potential.
How do players improve defensively? Do they all improve at the same rate or is there no change at all?
I can see how speed, range, arm might be set and not improve, but what about Error rate or infield double play rate?
I read Position rating grows as the player plays that position more and more. does it grow the same for all players?
I'm curious is to other ratings such as stealing, baserunning, bunting which I could see players improving but have no potential rating.

thank you for any info available

[asheft]

Originally Posted by wuttang

I can see batting and pitching potential, especially when I go into the editor, but couldn't find any Fielding related Potential.
How do players improve defensively? Do they all improve at the same rate or is there no change at all?
I can see how speed, range, arm might be set and not improve, but what about Error rate or infield double play rate?
I read Position rating grows as the player plays that position more and more. does it grow the same for all players?
I'm curious is to other ratings such as stealing, baserunning, bunting which I could see players improving but have no potential rating.

thank you for any info available

I think error and double play ratings also do not improve. Position rating does grow as they improve, and eventually it is subject to regular random rating changes (so it could rise, fall, etc.). Stealing, baserunning, and bunting as far as I know do not change, but speed can. I do think that it would be nice for all of those to have some variation (it is conceivable that a player would get better and better at, say, bunting the more they play). As a random side comment related to these ratings, I personally don't really like how fielding performance is pretty much only based off of the actual rating at the position. Take Ehire Adrianza, for example. He has great fielding ratings across the board, and a great rating at shortstop. However, when I played him at second base for half a year, even though it should be an easy transition and he should still play well, just because he didn't yet have a rating at second base, he was a terrible fielder. Overall, this means that it is hard to do something like moving a shortstop to second base, like a team might do in real life (and did, in the case of Ehire Adrianza and the Giants).

[OakDragon]

Originally Posted by asheft

I think error and double play ratings also do not improve. Position rating does grow as they improve, and eventually it is subject to regular random rating changes (so it could rise, fall, etc.). Stealing, baserunning, and bunting as far as I know do not change, but speed can. I do think that it would be nice for all of those to have some variation (it is conceivable that a player would get better and better at, say, bunting the more they play). As a random side comment related to these ratings, I personally don't really like how fielding performance is pretty much only based off of the actual rating at the position. Take Ehire Adrianza, for example. He has great fielding ratings across the board, and a great rating at shortstop. However, when I played him at second base for half a year, even though it should be an easy transition and he should still play well, just because he didn't yet have a rating at second base, he was a terrible fielder. Overall, this means that it is hard to do something like moving a shortstop to second base, like a team might do in real life (and did, in the case of Ehire Adrianza and the Giants).

Best to cut him anyway. He runs the bases like he had a lobotomy.

[asheft]

Originally Posted by OakDragon

Best to cut him anyway. He runs the bases like he had a lobotomy.

I just started a new game (I messed something up so that the facegens were all messed up), so I will see how he fares. In his first year though, he was hitting incredibly well, in the 300's for a while, until he dropped off and finished up with a .270 avg/.340 obp. Still pretty impressive for him though. The fielding issue also applies to Brandon Hicks (I edited in a 2B rating after having to watch him make errors left and right at second base, even though IRL he has been a good fielding second baseman).

[wuttang]

thanx for the info.
Studies have shown speed, range and arm strength should peak at an early age and only decline there after.
I don't think it's a big deal, but it would be nice to see defensive acumen(?), baserunning/stealing and bunting improve as a young kid plays more and gains experience, as those things CAN improve.

I can see a 2B moving to SS and struggling, and i can see a LF/RF moving to CF and struggling (last year's Choo) but a good SS moving to 2b or 3b, or even the Outfield, ala Mookie Betts and Billy Hamilton, shouldn't have their defense suffer so much for so long.

I guess off to the editor to make a few personal tweaks ^^

[asheft]

Originally Posted by wuttang

thanx for the info.
Studies have shown speed, range and arm strength should peak at an early age and only decline there after.
I don't think it's a big deal, but it would be nice to see defensive acumen(?), baserunning/stealing and bunting improve as a young kid plays more and gains experience, as those things CAN improve.

I can see a 2B moving to SS and struggling, and i can see a LF/RF moving to CF and struggling (last year's Choo) but a good SS moving to 2b or 3b, or even the Outfield, ala Mookie Betts and Billy Hamilton, shouldn't have their defense suffer so much for so long.

I guess off to the editor to make a few personal tweaks ^^

Completely agree with everything.

[JMDurron]

Originally Posted by wuttang

thanx for the info.
Studies have shown speed, range and arm strength should peak at an early age and only decline there after.
I don't think it's a big deal, but it would be nice to see defensive acumen(?), baserunning/stealing and bunting improve as a young kid plays more and gains experience, as those things CAN improve.

I can see a 2B moving to SS and struggling, and i can see a LF/RF moving to CF and struggling (last year's Choo) but a good SS moving to 2b or 3b, or even the Outfield, ala Mookie Betts and Billy Hamilton, shouldn't have their defense suffer so much for so long.

I guess off to the editor to make a few personal tweaks ^^

So, there are two factors here., The raw range/error/arm/DP ratings, and positional experience. Range/error/arm ratings do change over time, the range rating in particular rises for young players as they age, then starts to drop off in the late 20s, as a general rule. It's pretty much how you'd expect it to go logically, with a great deal of player-to-player variation, which is also intuitive. Some guys get away with bad reads due to great reflexes, then figure out how to cheat a bit to get an edge just as their natural range/reflexes begin to decline. Positional experience, which I think you are saying has too much of an impact on performance, is a straight accumulation on a per-position basis. If you move a Gold Glove SS to 1B in the middle of the season, he's going to suck relative to all but the very worst defensive 1B in the league. Perhaps positional experience is overly weighted in the play-to-play results, but the raw defensive abilities do change in the editor over time.

[wuttang]

Originally Posted by JMDurron

So, there are two factors here., The raw range/error/arm/DP ratings, and positional experience. Range/error/arm ratings do change over time, the range rating in particular rises for young players as they age, then starts to drop off in the late 20s, as a general rule. It's pretty much how you'd expect it to go logically, with a great deal of player-to-player variation, which is also intuitive. Some guys get away with bad reads due to great reflexes, then figure out how to cheat a bit to get an edge just as their natural range/reflexes begin to decline. Positional experience, which I think you are saying has too much of an impact on performance, is a straight accumulation on a per-position basis. If you move a Gold Glove SS to 1B in the middle of the season, he's going to suck relative to all but the very worst defensive 1B in the league. Perhaps positional experience is overly weighted in the play-to-play results, but the raw defensive abilities do change in the editor over time.

I get what you're saying about range. I get getting bad reads etc. but what I guess I was talking about was pure out speed and athleticism and they usually peak out in the early 20s. Also, i can see arm accuracy going up, while arm strength might slowly decline. I guess it's a question of athleticism vs experience?
But I do disagree with you on the last thing. I believe if you put someone like Andrelton Simmons with only 1 day of training at 1B, he'll still be a super defender.

[JMDurron]

Originally Posted by wuttang

I get what you're saying about range. I get getting bad reads etc. but what I guess I was talking about was pure out speed and athleticism and they usually peak out in the early 20s. Also, i can see arm accuracy going up, while arm strength might slowly decline. I guess it's a question of athleticism vs experience?
But I do disagree with you on the last thing. I believe if you put someone like Andrelton Simmons with only 1 day of training at 1B, he'll still be a super defender.

I don't think you were disagreeing with me, but I was unnecessarily vague. I meant that he would suck at 1B in OOTP, not in real life. We're on the same page.

I can say from tracking the editor fielding ratings of my players in one league over the years that range/error/arm do vary over time, generally in logical ways, but not with 100% predictability. I don't think there are any problems there. The impact of the positional experience rating is a separate discussion, that's my main point.

[wuttang]

Originally Posted by JMDurron

I don't think you were disagreeing with me, but I was unnecessarily vague. I meant that he would suck at 1B in OOTP, not in real life. We're on the same page.

I can say from tracking the editor fielding ratings of my players in one league over the years that range/error/arm do vary over time, generally in logical ways, but not with 100% predictability. I don't think there are any problems there. The impact of the positional experience rating is a separate discussion, that's my main point.

Oh, ok i get it ^^
Maybe I'm thinking of OOTP as too much as a video game, and not enough as a "real life" baseball sim, and asking for more and more ratings that aren't really necessary.
I've always been a More and Bigger is always Better! guy lol.
I remember in some games defenders had rating for arm Strength AND arm Accuracy. sorta redundant looking back now.

[JMDurron]

Well, I think of range as the combination of speed/reaction and routes to the ball, arm as arm strength, and error as the combination of the ability to get the ball in the glove AND throw accurately. That might be wrong.

[Mr. Baseball]

Position ratings are mostly just reflective of experience at a given position. A guy who has great fielding ratings could be suited as a solid third baseman without having a rating at 3B, you just need to develop him there in the minors and/or spring training. Which FYI, according to OOTP, Spring Training is the best time to teach a player a new position as they improve at a far more rapid rate.

[Kha the Giants Fan]

Originally Posted by asheft

I just started a new game (I messed something up so that the facegens were all messed up), so I will see how he fares. In his first year though, he was hitting incredibly well, in the 300's for a while, until he dropped off and finished up with a .270 avg/.340 obp. Still pretty impressive for him though. The fielding issue also applies to Brandon Hicks (I edited in a 2B rating after having to watch him make errors left and right at second base, even though IRL he has been a good fielding second baseman).

Transfer those stats to real life pls.

[asheft]

Originally Posted by Kha the Giants Fan

Transfer those stats to real life pls.

What do you mean?

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by asheft

Take Ehire Adrianza, for example. He has great fielding ratings across the board, and a great rating at shortstop. However, when I played him at second base for half a year, even though it should be an easy transition and he should still play well, just because he didn't yet have a rating at second base, he was a terrible fielder. Overall, this means that it is hard to do something like moving a shortstop to second base, like a team might do in real life (and did, in the case of Ehire Adrianza and the Giants).

Originally Posted by asheft

I just started a new game (I messed something up so that the facegens were all messed up), so I will see how he fares. In his first year though, he was hitting incredibly well, in the 300's for a while, until he dropped off and finished up with a .270 avg/.340 obp. Still pretty impressive for him though. The fielding issue also applies to Brandon Hicks (I edited in a 2B rating after having to watch him make errors left and right at second base, even though IRL he has been a good fielding second baseman).

Reading through this thread, looked up the above players after your comments, and realized they really do need 2B ratings in the roster set. So I fixed them both, and set them up with plenty of experience at 2B.

Even given all the time and effort we spend to get the rosters as close to perfect as possible, sometime little stuff like this goes unnoticed and unfixed for a while.

If you guys find any other players like this, guys who don't have fielding experience ratings for positions they've actually played irl, please let us know in this thread and we'll fix them. Thanks!

[JMDurron]

Originally Posted by asheft

What do you mean?

The comment read to me as a very condescending way of asking for you to post the standard AVG-HR-RBI line that was used to evaluate batters back in the dark time, before Bill James.

That wouldn't make much sense to me, though, since AVG and OBP are pure stats without any projection/modification relative to other players, as opposed to WAR or VORP, or even OPS+.

Of course, even that wouldn't make any sense, since we're talking about a simulated player in OOTP who didn't actually play "in real life."

I guess I have no idea.

[Jupiter]

Originally Posted by asheft

What do you mean?

I took it to mean that he wished the player was hitting as well in real life (.270 avg/.340 obp) and in your OOTP game. But that's just a guess.

[Kha the Giants Fan]

Originally Posted by Jupiter

I took it to mean that he wished the player was hitting as well in real life (.270 avg/.340 obp) and in your OOTP game. But that's just a guess.

Yes this is exactly what I meant, just a flippant way of complaining about the Giants' bench. Sorry for confusion.

[asheft]

Its okay. Yeah his glove is great but he can't hit .

[JMDurron]

Originally Posted by Kha the Giants Fan

Yes this is exactly what I meant, just a flippant way of complaining about the Giants' bench. Sorry for confusion.

Wow, I completely whiffed on that one. I don't follow the league as a whole enough anymore to have recognized the name, I had assumed it was a fictional player.