clutch hitting rating?

[AJTrenkle]

I believe I read in an email that v.4 is going to have a clutch hitting rating. is this true?

I'd be curious to hear other peoples thoughts but i think this would be a big mistake. clutch hitting has been pretty much proven to be a myth, and i'd hate for such a subjective element to creep into a great game.

[643gdp]

If you read the studies carefully that have addressed whether or not "clutch" hitting ability exists, you'll see that the conclusion is ONLY that there is little evidence that it DOES exist. Thus, the sabermetricians (of which I consider myself to be one, albeit part-time) have demonstrated that the ability, if it exists, has very little effect on anything. It is so small that it is undetectable with standard statisical methods. That is VERY DIFFERENT from proving that it does not exist.

So, if a game wants to include a clutch rating, why not? As long as it does not overpower the main ratings and standard batter/pitcher interaction, it doesn't violate real baseball at all. Bottom line: We don't know that clutch hitting ability doesn't exist, we just know that the ability, IF it exists, has a very small effect on the game.

[Draft Dodger]

I believe Markus stated very recently that it would exist, but wouldn't be an enormous factor. In other words, he's not going to overdo it.

[Steve Kuffrey]

This was discussed on our previous board and the point was made that the replay games that many people feel at among the best have a "clutch" rating for the batters.

Just FYI

[DreamTeams]

The clutch rating will be fun for folks who enjoy player crafting and building characteristics into their players. Also for manager buffs that could pinch-hit a player with a higher clutch rating in clutch situations. It's still no guarantee that the player will get the clutch hit, though. I think it's a good idea for these simple reasons. Although I see clutch and leadership ability displayed in OOTP even now, without the clutch rating. It's just more subjective, which is what I like about it. But, Markus has stated that the clutch rating will only play a very small part in the overall game. That meets the realistic requirement.

[Tiger Fan]

[quote]Originally posted by OOTP1:
<strong>This was discussed on our previous board and the point was made that the replay games that many people feel at among the best have a "clutch" rating for the batters.

Just FYI</strong><hr></blockquote>

If there is a clutch rating added please make it a hidden rating that we can not view. I think it is important that we as team GM's or managers discover who the best clutch hitters are only by seeing them produce in clutch situations and not by being able to look at ratings on it.

[JML]

[quote]Originally posted by Tiger Fan:
<strong>

If there is a clutch rating added please make it a hidden rating that we can not view. I think it is important that we as team GM's or managers discover who the best clutch hitters are only by seeing them produce in clutch situations and not by being able to look at ratings on it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree. I suppose, for player creation purposes, a visible clutch factor would be good. But when you are discovering the heroes and goats on your team, it would be better to identify your clutch players through trial and error.

[Draft Dodger]

[quote]Originally posted by Tiger Fan:
<strong>

If there is a clutch rating added please make it a hidden rating that we can not view. I think it is important that we as team GM's or managers discover who the best clutch hitters are only by seeing them produce in clutch situations and not by being able to look at ratings on it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

maybe I'm missing something here, but all the "reat" ratings are hidden. I would assume that the clutch rating would be the same - ballpark close, but not necessarily on the money.

[sporr]

Here's a link to a small discussion on clutch hitting that I started on the old board.

<a href="http://www.forumplanet.com/sportplanet/ootp3/topic.asp?fid=3664&tid=457301" target="_blank">http://www.forumplanet.com/sportplanet/ootp3/topic.asp?fid=3664&tid=457301</a>

[DreamTeams]

Hmmm. TigerFan makes a good point. Some guys who manage would probably like to discover that. But, isn't it true that there's no guarantee that a player will perform up to a certain rating? I thought I read that somwhere. Still I have to agree that it would be more exciting to discover clutch by observance and performance than to know outright.

[hellfrozeover]

I agree that the clutch rating should be hidden. You should be able to find out by checking a players career stats in certain situations if you wanted to, but it should not go any further than that. It is much more fun to figure out who works best from experience rather than to be able to see everything.

[Tiger Fan]

[quote]Originally posted by hellfrozeover:
<strong>I agree that the clutch rating should be hidden. You should be able to find out by checking a players career stats in certain situations if you wanted to, but it should not go any further than that. It is much more fun to figure out who works best from experience rather than to be able to see everything.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Exactly. There should not be a 1-10 rating for clutch play (whether it is accurate or just an estimate). The only way in real life a player is considered a clutch hitter (and it is debatable if there is such a thing) is by his stats with runners in scoring position or what he does in late innings. That is all that should ever be provided to us so we can judge if a player is indeed a clutch hitter.

[Draft Dodger]

by the same token,
should we be able to see ANY ratings?

[Hammer755]

[quote]Originally posted by Draft Dodger:
<strong>by the same token,
should we be able to see ANY ratings?</strong><hr></blockquote>

We definitely should be able to see some ratings. The roster side of the game is (nearly) always seen throught the eyes of a scout, and a scout can identify certain attributes of athletes such as velocity, control, power, speed, etc. But a scout can't see a clutch rating, especially how clutch in HS or college relates to clutch in the Show.

[Draft Dodger]

let me clarify -

a scout doesn't know the actual rating of a player in real life (as if there was such a thing) - he knows player history, general talent, bat speed, etc that gives him a general idea that one could extrapolate into ratings in the game.

Same with cluch hitting.

The game does a good job of hiding the "real" ratings, and giving you a scouts-eye view of them.
I can't understand why we would completely hide one rating and not all of them.

[Big Johnston]

Every scientific study done on clutch hitting has come to the same conclusion: there is no such thing as clutch hitting. It is a myth.

It should not be added to the game.

[JML]

[quote]Originally posted by Big Johnston:
<strong>Every scientific study done on clutch hitting has come to the same conclusion: there is no such thing as clutch hitting. It is a myth.

It should not be added to the game.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Scientific studies don't PROVE anything. They provide evidence in one direction or another. Scientific studies cannot prove that clutch ability exists. Nor can they prove it doesn't. They suggest that what is called clutch ability has a very small influence, if any.

As I'm sure you can tell, I believe some kind of clutch ability does exist, but it isn't necessarily significant enough to see in stats. I also believe leadership ability plays a role, but it can't be PROVEN by looking at stats.

[ December 10, 2001: Message edited by: JML ]</p>

[manutebol]

I don't want to see a clutch rating in this game.
The players already seem to take on a certain
personality and reliability(or unreliability)in
certain situations.I already have a 'feel' for who I would want up in a certain situation or who I want pitching in a big game or tight jam.A clutch rating would only take away from that.
If a clutch raing is deemed necessary I agree that keeping it hidden and small is a good compromise.
But I still hope you don't do it.
Just my two cents.
shawn

[hellfrozeover]

You can't prove a negative. It's impossible. But I do believe there is something similar to clutch. Basically, good hitters know that if the bases are loaded and it is a close game, the pressure is on pitcher, not the batter because he must throw strikes. Therefore the batter becomes more patient and looks for the pitch that he hits better, thus he performs better in these situations. It then results in something simlar to clutch but it is not necessarily that the player is trying harder or anything.

Also, you're absolutely right, scouts don't look at clutch, they just look at the list of different abilities. There was an article on scouting at <a href="http://www.mlb.com" target="_blank">www.mlb.com</a> but I don't remember exactly what it said.

[PineTar]

Why a clutch rating? Count me in the camp against the idea completely. People want to see clutch ratings because they've grown up w/ statistically naive announcers who have attributed random acts to some sort of "clutch" ability. With the exception of Jim Leyritz tell me one crappy hitter who has ever had the "clutch" label pinned on him? Ever notice its the great hitters who develop "clutch" reputations?

If you want to add some type of TANGIBLE rating, you could add Day/Night splits for batting average, as there is proof that this exists.