Raise minimum stamina threshold for starting pitchers?

[BadluckinOOTP]

Is this an option somewhere in game? I have all ratings off except for fielding, speed and stamina which are 1-5. I have a handful of player sin the league that are listed at 2 stamina and don't have the endurance to really be a starter.

One example is a guy who has started 31, 33 and 34 games the last three years and has thrown 169.1, 183 and 194.1 innings respectively. His ERA those year is about 4, but he can't even average 6 innings a start or throw more than 85 pitches.

I've seen quite a few guys like this, but I don't think a player like this exists in the modern major leagues.

I also think a good idea might be to implement some sort of 'stretching out' process which takes a couple of weeks if you're turning a reliever into a starter. Maybe the longer a pitcher has been a reliever, the longer it takes to convert, or something?

Any thoughts?

[MrWideFrame]

There definitely needs to be an option that attempts to convert relief pitchers into starting pitchers and have the possibility of a stamina boost.

[JMDurron]

But, using a player as a SP instead of a MR already gives a functional stamina boost, in the sense that the pitcher can throw more pitches before getting tired in the game. Adding another boost on top of that would basically turn any reliever into a potential 100-pitch starter. Short relievers shouldn't be able to start as a general rule, so the game shouldn't make it even easier than it already is for them to do so.

[MrWideFrame]

Originally Posted by JMDurron

But, using a player as a SP instead of a MR already gives a functional stamina boost, in the sense that the pitcher can throw more pitches before getting tired in the game. Adding another boost on top of that would basically turn any reliever into a potential 100-pitch starter. Short relievers shouldn't be able to start as a general rule, so the game shouldn't make it even easier than it already is for them to do so.

I agree with that. My comments was in reference to tweeners who have 40-60/100 stamina. You should be able to build their stamina up over time by gradually increasing their pitch count / innings count.

[Rockfan616]

Originally Posted by MrWideFrame

There definitely needs to be an option that attempts to convert relief pitchers into starting pitchers and have the possibility of a stamina boost.

There is an option to do this on the player page, go under editor and you can boost his endurance and strikes thrown and whatnot on that. I do it sometimes with guys who are middle/long relievers who have the potential to be starters.

[MrWideFrame]

Originally Posted by Rockfan616

There is an option to do this on the player page, go under editor and you can boost his endurance and strikes thrown and whatnot on that. I do it sometimes with guys who are middle/long relievers who have the potential to be starters.

That is not an option.

[injury log]

Low-Stamina pitchers in OOTP are supposed to model the real life pitchers who are either insufficiently durable to pitch in a rotation, or who throw max-effort and who would not perform effectively in long outings. There are a lot of pitchers like that in real life, and if they were 'stretched out' to be starters, they would suck. So for a 'stretching out' feature to be realistic, it would need to let you stretch out your good relievers into bad starters. And no one would use that feature, so I don't see why we need it.

The greater role limitation in OOTP now is repertoire anyway; more pitchers are unable to start because they lack three good pitches than because they lack the requisite Stamina. If the only reason a pitcher cannot start in OOTP is low Stamina, he will sometimes become a starter, because the Stamina rating does change over time. So you can have the occasional pitcher like Braden Looper who spends a career in the bullpen and converts to starting later in his career. But in real life, there is only a minuscule number of pure relief pitchers who have done that, so it certainly is not something that should be easy to do in OOTP.

[24Rocks]

Originally Posted by JMDurron

But, using a player as a SP instead of a MR already gives a functional stamina boost, in the sense that the pitcher can throw more pitches before getting tired in the game. Adding another boost on top of that would basically turn any reliever into a potential 100-pitch starter. Short relievers shouldn't be able to start as a general rule, so the game shouldn't make it even easier than it already is for them to do so.

But then theres using a SP as a pen guy, I had a guy in my fic league was 23 when i brought him up fro a few starts but he made the team as a setup guy f0r 3 years was really good but got angery when i would make him a starter ( he just didn't pitch well enough to keep his job in rotation) but over the 3 years he was a MR he should have lost the stamina or the desire to Start I didnt want to trade him but he is a bad SP on TBR

[Rain King]

Of course, Braden Looper actually started the first 12 games of his professional career (in the minors).

Pitchers becomes "relief" pitchers for 2 reasons.

A. They prove to be ineffective as starting pitchers...or at least don't make the cut for the rotation for their team.

B. Past injuries make the risk of throwing a lot of innings too large.


Drafting college "closers" has become a somewhat recent trend, but even those guys were starters on their high school teams. Stamina, as in the physical ability to throw say 100 pitches in 1 night, is simply not a factor in whether a pitcher starts because every professional pitcher has that physical ability.

One thing that I'm not sure is modeled well, or at least should be modeled separately from stamina but currently isn't, is a pitcher's ability to recover from an outing. The Cardinals have essentially eliminated the possibility of Jaime Garcia pitching out of the bullpen despite his injury history because he has shown that he does not recover quickly enough to pitch in that role. A "get loose" rating of some type could also make things more realistic (though also much harder for AI coding I'm sure) as pitchers like Jake Westbrook have been unable to transition to the bullpen because of how long it takes them to warm up properly.

The point though is that a stamina threshold really shouldn't be what determines whether a pitcher will be placed in a starting role in the first place and increasing that standard would be far less than ideal. OOTP does a pretty good job at the moment determining roles based on the rating system that is in place, much better than the past versions have done. If your low-end stamina guys aren't lasting long enough in general than your league stamina setting probably needs to be adjusted.

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by 24Rocks

but over the 3 years he was a MR he should have lost the stamina or the desire to Start

I disagree absolutely on the first point (stamina) and in most cases on the second (desire). There are plenty of bullpen guys in MLB who would prefer to be starting, in fact I would bet it is a majority of them by far. They tend to accept the roles they have because they have no choice. So, I would say that a guy shouldn't get angry often because of a bullpen role in OOTP (unless they have had success as a starter recently), but it should definitely happen on occasion. Wade Davis could be a comp to your guy.

[Rain King]

Something I would be in favor of (though again would make AI coding more difficult) would be the need to transition pitchers from a bullpen role to a starting role...especially if they have been in the bullpen role for quite some time. Pitchers are creatures of routine and it changes drastically based on these two roles so they should have to work up to tapping the most of their stamina rating in a starting role.

[24Rocks]

Originally Posted by Rain King

I disagree absolutely on the first point (stamina) and in most cases on the second (desire). There are plenty of bullpen guys in MLB who would prefer to be starting, in fact I would bet it is a majority of them by far. They tend to accept the roles they have because they have no choice. So, I would say that a guy shouldn't get angry often because of a bullpen role in OOTP (unless they have had success as a starter recently), but it should definitely happen on occasion.

I actully agree with you On the your 2nd point in most cases they should still want to start but if they have success as MR and are on a good team should they want to stay as MR and to be honest it took 3 years of MR plus a DL stint then I got the message I want to start so he tried in ST and made the rotation pitched 5 games 4.80 something era so I put him as a MR and traded him at the start of the next season.
My first point is I could have some one like Cassy Jansen he was a SP and if he was in my fic league in OOTP he would still have 6 stamina Ratitings then so I could switch him back to SP with no penalty. I used to do this in OOTP 12 when i had to many SP i would use them as closers or Pen guys then they would be 15 game winners a year guys.

[injury log]

Originally Posted by Rain King

Of course, Braden Looper actually started the first 12 games of his professional career (in the minors).

Yes, if you go back far enough, almost every pitcher was once a starter, and that's also what happens in OOTP. In OOTP, pitchers typically become relievers for one of three reasons:

- they don't have, or they lose (usually because of injury), the Stamina to start
- they don't develop three pitches good enough to use in an SP role at the MLB level (but good enough in the low minors)
- there's no room for them in the rotation, but they're better than other available RP options

So Looper can happen in OOTP too. I don't know why he switched out of starting so quickly (and then rose almost straight to the Majors), but a minor leaguer in OOTP with three pitches and a very borderline Stamina rating might drop below the threshold for several years, and then climb back above it. I've seen that happen quite often, actually.

Originally Posted by Rain King

Pitchers becomes "relief" pitchers for 2 reasons.

A. They prove to be ineffective as starting pitchers...or at least don't make the cut for the rotation for their team.

B. Past injuries make the risk of throwing a lot of innings too large.

I'd disagree that those are the only two reasons, though it doesn't really matter as far as this discussion goes. I do think some pitchers are 'born relievers' - submariners, for example. And then some pitchers become relievers not specifically because they are 'ineffective' starters, but rather because the difference between their effectiveness as SPs and their effectiveness as RPs is so huge that they are more valuable in the bullpen. I'd argue that was true of Papelbon or Gagne (well, you could very well argue that Papelbon should have remained a starter, since he was really good in that role in the minors, but he was so good as a reliever, he stuck there).

I recall having a long discussion about how real life pitching 'works' on the beta team when the individual pitch ratings were introduced a few years ago. There was an idea many people seemed to hold that 'pitchers become relievers either because of injury or because they aren't good enough (don't have good enough pitches) to start'. I don't think there's any evidence to support that. I think a lot of pitchers become relievers simply because they're damn good as relievers.

Originally Posted by Rain King

Stamina, as in the physical ability to throw say 100 pitches in 1 night, is simply not a factor in whether a pitcher starts because every professional pitcher has that physical ability.

I think there's a semantic issue about how the Stamina rating ought to be interpreted. Based on how OOTP uses it, I don't think it represents 'how many pitches a guy can throw in a game'. What it really represents is 'how many pitches a guy can throw in a game as effectively as his ratings suggest he can pitch'.

And when people bring up this 'stretching pitchers out' request, I think it's worth mentioning that OOTP does not prevent you from using as an SP someone whose recommended role is 'Bullpen'. The AI won't do it, but you can. He'll pitch a lot better as a reliever - as a reliever, he'll pitch the way his ratings say he should - but a lot of 'Bullpen' and 'Strictly Bullpen' guys will do quite well as starters too, assuming their ratings are high. You don't need to 'stretch him out', you just need to put him in your rotation. And by the same token, a low-Stamina guy can throw 100 pitches in a game; he'll say he's tired, but he'll keep pitching. He won't be very good after 30 or 40 pitches, but his low Stamina rating does not physically prevent him from throwing the ball 100 times. That's what I was referring to when I drew the semantic distinction above.

Originally Posted by Rain King

One thing that I'm not sure is modeled well, or at least should be modeled separately from stamina but currently isn't, is a pitcher's ability to recover from an outing.

Right now, there's only one 'cutoff point' for the Stamina rating: above 50/200, and the AI will use a guy as a starter, as long as his pitches are good. Below 50/200, the AI will use a guy as a reliever no matter what. I've long thought there should be a second cutoff point - guys with extremely high Stamina (perhaps over 180/200) should have some special characteristics too. Right now, since SPs in OOTP need to meet a minimum repertoire requirement, there's a de facto minimum Stuff rating for SPs. Since Stuff produces strikeouts, there's a minimum K-rate OOTP starters won't fall below. But there have been some very low K-rate SPs in real life (Nate Cornejo, say). So I think extremely high Stamina guys ought to be able to start with three pitches, no matter how bad those pitches are. They should also, perhaps, be ineffective as relievers, much like Westbrook or Garcia - perhaps they should have long recovery times between outings. I think we could capture a few more of the nuances of real life pitching with that kind of model.

[Carlton]

Originally Posted by Rain King

Of course, Braden Looper actually started the first 12 games of his professional career (in the minors).

Pitchers becomes "relief" pitchers for 2 reasons.

A. They prove to be ineffective as starting pitchers...or at least don't make the cut for the rotation for their team.

B. Past injuries make the risk of throwing a lot of innings too large.


Drafting college "closers" has become a somewhat recent trend, but even those guys were starters on their high school teams. Stamina, as in the physical ability to throw say 100 pitches in 1 night, is simply not a factor in whether a pitcher starts because every professional pitcher has that physical ability.

One thing that I'm not sure is modeled well, or at least should be modeled separately from stamina but currently isn't, is a pitcher's ability to recover from an outing. The Cardinals have essentially eliminated the possibility of Jaime Garcia pitching out of the bullpen despite his injury history because he has shown that he does not recover quickly enough to pitch in that role. A "get loose" rating of some type could also make things more realistic (though also much harder for AI coding I'm sure) as pitchers like Jake Westbrook have been unable to transition to the bullpen because of how long it takes them to warm up properly.

The point though is that a stamina threshold really shouldn't be what determines whether a pitcher will be placed in a starting role in the first place and increasing that standard would be far less than ideal. OOTP does a pretty good job at the moment determining roles based on the rating system that is in place, much better than the past versions have done. If your low-end stamina guys aren't lasting long enough in general than your league stamina setting probably needs to be adjusted.

I agree with this and shocked at myself that I never brought it up as a suggestion

Many relievers in MLB were starters in the minors as well, it is very rare that a career minor league reliever even makes the bigs, unless they are a closer, they usually change a SP to MR at AAA, look at any longetivy reliever on bbref, then click his minor league stats


Also, #3 on why they become relievers, 3rd and 4th pitch (if they have one) is weak

To offset this in OOTP, I make sure all Pitchers with 3 pitches have 50 stamina or above, depending on how their MLB career went...many pitchers have 60 games one year, then 55 games and a couple of starts the next. However, usually their changeup is weak, so they are starters in A-AA and maybe even AAA, but when brought up are sent to the bullpen.

I experimented with Mariano Rivera and Tom Gordon in my 1995 league...both were starters, and both started a couple of games in 1995, but now in 1996, Rivera is a setup guy and Gordon is MR...yet both have the stamina to start at any time

[Carlton]

Originally Posted by injury log

I think a lot of pitchers become relievers simply because they're damn good as relievers.

That's conjecture, WHY are they good relievers? They have ONE damn fine pitch and another one above average usually

But we really should discuss how we can better represent who is a SP and who is a RP and who is a CL in OOTP

I think the idea of having a "longer recovery" would help keep some guys as SP no matter what. Having the above mentioned 2 great pitches with high velocity should be a CL and RP should be in between or very large splits...like the submariner RH who gets eaten up by Lefties or the LOOGY guy, those guys should be slated as a better RP option than SP, even if they have 4 average pitches and 60 stamina

I can manipulate RP from created players and historical imports to have the opportunity to Start if needed, but I cannot manipulate a SP from not going to the bullpen (In Commisioner mode)

[RchW]

Originally Posted by injury log

I think there's a semantic issue about how the Stamina rating ought to be interpreted. Based on how OOTP uses it, I don't think it represents 'how many pitches a guy can throw in a game'. What it really represents is 'how many pitches a guy can throw in a game as effectively as his ratings suggest he can pitch'.

And when people bring up this 'stretching pitchers out' request, I think it's worth mentioning that OOTP does not prevent you from using as an SP someone whose recommended role is 'Bullpen'. The AI won't do it, but you can. He'll pitch a lot better as a reliever - as a reliever, he'll pitch the way his ratings say he should - but a lot of 'Bullpen' and 'Strictly Bullpen' guys will do quite well as starters too, assuming their ratings are high. You don't need to 'stretch him out', you just need to put him in your rotation. And by the same token, a low-Stamina guy can throw 100 pitches in a game; he'll say he's tired, but he'll keep pitching. He won't be very good after 30 or 40 pitches, but his low Stamina rating does not physically prevent him from throwing the ball 100 times. That's what I was referring to when I drew the semantic distinction above.

Thanks for this. I now know how to create the OOTP version of JA Happ.