Design Documents

[Sebmono]

A humble, yet perhaps unorthodox, request; could the devs upload/make publicly available the design documents they created for this project at some point?

I've seen other game devs do this before as it is both intellectually interesting from a hobbiest's perspective as to what goes into the planning and process of actual game development (particularly for a sim like this) and it would also offer us as a highly interested community some insight into the thought processes of the developers without having to burden them with constantly answering questions on the forums (a.k.a. a "time saver", although I suppose you could argue that such documents would only raise more questions...).

Would really love to see these as long as this wouldn't violate any sort of contractual obligations, even if it required significant redaction for intellectual property reasons.

Originally Posted by Sebmono

A humble, yet perhaps unorthodox, request; could the devs upload/make publicly available the design documents they created for this project at some point?

I've seen other game devs do this before as it is both intellectually interesting from a hobbiest's perspective as to what goes into the planning and process of actual game development (particularly for a sim like this) and it would also offer us as a highly interested community some insight into the thought processes of the developers without having to burden them with constantly answering questions on the forums (a.k.a. a "time saver", although I suppose you could argue that such documents would only raise more questions...).

Would really love to see these as long as this wouldn't violate any sort of contractual obligations, even if it required significant redaction for intellectual property reasons.

First, can you please enumerate list of developers who've done that?

Second, would you make the same ask to the Markus (OOTP developer)? or to Sports Interactive, developers of Football Manager?

Third, would you make life easier for your (even potentional) competitors by revealing design of hockey game?

Fourth, if they won't be able to do something in the list wouldn't it start a big forum war?

I think the idea is good but is more suitable for indie developers than for top developers such as OOTP.

[Sebmono]

1. Don't see why I have to or should "enumerate" examples, but here are a sample:
Doom
Amnesia
GTA
Developer Chris Crawford

2. What does it matter who I'm asking?

3. Design documents are about organization, thought process, and planning, not execution which is actually require to make something. If there are specific formulas involved then those should be redacted as I mentioned in my original post.

4. Again, design documents are about planning, not promises. Any game designer worth their salt knows that design documents don't hold up to first iterations of production and everything stands to change after it's put on paper. Seeing the documents is about understanding original planning, concepts, and intents. Besides all of that, who cares if someone "starts a war" as you put it. Isn't the whole point of forums to be a place for discussion and conversation? We should not censor posts or information for fear of the opinions people may have on them.

Why do think showing customers design documents is only ok for small developers and not larger ones, what's the difference? Also, what is your definition of "indie" versus "top" developer? Given that this project seems to have had a team of fewer than a dozen members at any point in time (an obviously unknown variable which would be interesting to have more light shed on through a design document...) I would definitely put them in a category closer to "indie" than "top" developer (like EA or even Sports Interactive).

I'm not attacking you, I just try to reason. BTW, I'm not connected with FHM, I didn't even buy the game.

1. I asked you because I didn't know that developers did that. Thanks for examples. Look: they revealed GTA 1 design document only recently, but the game was of 1995! DOOM design document was revealed recently too, but is of 1992.

Many things you say are right, but now I'm too lazy too write the reasoning of my first post.

Look at fans. They are angry now. If they see FHM, for example, was planned to be 3D simulator (it's a dummy example), they may be even angrier. You are reasonable, but there are some that are not. Don't forget about them.

[Sebmono]

I hear you and appreciate that you're not attacking me. I also agree that there are many who are disappointed with the game and the developers (I am one of these actually) as well as unreasonable in their capacity for discussion regarding their complaints (I hope I do not fall into that category). You are correct that we should keep those people in mind, however I also don't think we should lower ourselves as a whole to the lowest common denominator, we shouldn't cripple our discussions because of a problematic minority.

It's very probable that a release of game design documents would only aggravate more people but I also think it's possible that it could help shed light on how complicated and convoluted a process game development, and in particular statistically based simulations, can be and perhaps alleviate some complaints over the game. Perhaps this is just wishful thinking on my part but I believe that process transparency works out best for everyone in the end. As another example I would suggest Jon Schafer's At the Gates project (of which I am a backer) where he has actually been very thorough in talking about his design process. For me this has been very interesting and illuminating as it brings out into the open the many challenges and complications that they face in their process. This knowledge helps me reach understanding whereas when all I have are questions that can lead to frustration. Maybe opening up some potential for understanding to others will help alleviate their frustrations?

[JeffR]

Maybe someday, but not anytime soon.

I have spent quite a bit of time on the forum discussing how things work in the game, and will continue to do so. But, even aside from considerations about what aspects of the game design should and shouldn't be revealed, it's a big archival task to show you anything besides very bland top-level stuff. If I wanted to show you the documentation for the new match engine, for example, I'd have to assemble it from a few separate documents, then go line-by-line through thousands of lines to remove specific formulas, which would probably render great chunks of it incomprehensible even before accounting for the fact that the reader it was intended for (Sebastian) is assumed to have detailed internal knowledge of the game's existing systems.

Getting a readable document out of that process would take quite a while, and I think we can all agree that the team's time is probably better spent working directly on the game for now. If our sales numbers ever match GTA's, though, I'll be happy to outdo what they've revealed - presumably, I'll be able to dictate it to my butler while aboard my yacht.

[Sebmono]

Fair enough, thanks for the reply

[dsthom]

Originally Posted by dmytron

I didn't even buy the game.

Lucky you.

Originally Posted by dsthom

Lucky you.

I'd buy but I don't like the hockey