Greatest injustices in OOTP world...

[Death2Life]

If you have ever seen a more blatant injustice committed against a player I would like to know about it, so please share. This guy had a .294 average, 34 homers, and 98 RBI's at the All Star Break and did NOT make the All Star team! How could this even happen? Is it a bug in the game?


Death2Life

[GiantYankee]

I always pick players myself because the game engine looks for the 25 best players and not necessarily the best players at each position. Following is from the OOTP manual:

"By default, OOTP elects the top 25 players in each division or subleague - 12 pitchers and 13 position players. While real-world All-Star teams include starters at each position, OOTP selects the top players, regardless of position. So, you may find that your All-Star teams have three catchers, if your league has some truly outstanding catchers. But temper your enthusiasm when your stud shortstop makes the All-Star game! Don't think for a minute he won't consider that when his contract is up!"

Out of the Park Baseball Manual

[Rasmuth]

See Hank Greenberg....1935, had 103 Rbi's at the allstar break, won the MVP that season...did not get selected for the All-Star game.

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by GiantYankee

I always pick players myself because the game engine looks for the 25 best players and not necessarily the best players at each position. Following is from the OOTP manual:

"By default, OOTP elects the top 25 players in each division or subleague - 12 pitchers and 13 position players. While real-world All-Star teams include starters at each position, OOTP selects the top players, regardless of position. So, you may find that your All-Star teams have three catchers, if your league has some truly outstanding catchers. But temper your enthusiasm when your stud shortstop makes the All-Star game! Don't think for a minute he won't consider that when his contract is up!"

Out of the Park Baseball Manual

So the player in the OP isn't one of the top 13 position players? Wow, I'd like to see the 13 who the AI did choose.

[Padreman]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

So the player in the OP isn't one of the top 13 position players? Wow, I'd like to see the 13 who the AI did choose.

I was thinking the same thing

[le receveur]

why should a .331 OBP below average player make the all-star? I would be upset if he was voted in my league.

[greenie25]

Originally Posted by le receveur

why should a .331 OBP below average player make the all-star? I would be upset if he was voted in my league.

His OPS+ is 160, though. OBP isn't everything.

[le receveur]

Originally Posted by greenie25

His OPS+ is 160, though. OBP isn't everything.

still a major contributor, especially for someone with little defensive value. I just got to the ASB on my season, and 2.6 WAR doesn't qualify either as top 13 position player in either league

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by le receveur

still a major contributor, especially for someone with little defensive value. I just got to the ASB on my season, and 2.6 WAR doesn't qualify either as top 13 position player in either league

Hit the nail right on the head. Low OBP and zero defensive value means he's not actually all that great, however incredible his HR numbers are. He's essentially the younger version of Ryan Howard.

He doesn't really hit any doubles either. Gaudy HR totals are all you get from him.

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

Hit the nail right on the head. Low OBP and zero defensive value means he's not actually all that great, however incredible his HR numbers are. He's essentially the younger version of Ryan Howard.

He doesn't really hit any doubles either. Gaudy HR totals are all you get from him.

Ryan Howard was pretty darn great for a few years, and that's coming from a Mets fan. The player in question certainly has some deficiencies in certain areas, but he's no slouch and more than worthy as an All-Star.

Also, since when is a 12 rating at first base mean a guy has zero defensive value? I use the 20-80 scale, but it sure seems to me that 12 out of 20 isn't horrible, especially at first base for a guy who has plus-plus power.

EDIT TO ADD: I know his range and error ratings are low, but again, it's first base, not shortstop. It's a offense-first position.

[tomwolf2008]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

Ryan Howard was pretty darn great for a few years, and that's coming from a Mets fan. The player in question certainly has some deficiencies in certain areas, but he's no slouch and more than worthy as an All-Star.

Also, since when is a 12 rating at first base mean a guy has zero defensive value? I use the 20-80 scale, but it sure seems to me that 12 out of 20 isn't horrible, especially at first base for a guy who has plus-plus power.

EDIT TO ADD: I know his range and error ratings are low, but again, it's first base, not shortstop. It's a offense-first position.

Yes, yes, but...
as someone above pointed out, OOTP chose All star in this way:
"By default, OOTP elects the top 25 players in each division or subleague 12 pitchers and 13 position players" Which this given player might not be. This is OOTP's definiton of "all star", if you have your own definition which disagree with OOTP ones, then you should chose ASG player yourself

(and Ryan Howard, btw, get on a base much better than a .331OBP in his all star years. For example, in 2006, he has a .425 OBP for the 1st half of the season)

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by tomwolf2008

Yes, yes, but...
as someone above pointed out, OOTP chose All star in this way:
"By default, OOTP elects the top 25 players in each division or subleague 12 pitchers and 13 position players" Which this given player might not be. This is OOTP's definiton of "all star", if you have your own definition which disagree with OOTP ones, then you should chose ASG player yourself

(and Ryan Howard, btw, get on a base much better than a .331OBP in his all star years. For example, in 2006, he has a .425 OBP for the 1st half of the season)

Yes, yes, I'm aware of how OOTP chooses players. I'm just saying that looking at it objectively rather than using OOTP's strict formula, you can't say this guy isn't All-Star worthy.

[greenie25]

Looks a little like Dave Kingman, who made 3 All-Star teams.

Obviously not an elite player, but still deserving of All-Star selection, especially when you consider how ridiculous the selection process is IRL.

I will say that it's interesting that OOTP goes with the best statistical players for auto selection. Since fans vote for the starters, you'd think the game would just select from the pool of the most popular players for the starting lineup and then use the stats for the reserve players.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

Ryan Howard was pretty darn great for a few years, and that's coming from a Mets fan. The player in question certainly has some deficiencies in certain areas, but he's no slouch and more than worthy as an All-Star.

Also, since when is a 12 rating at first base mean a guy has zero defensive value? I use the 20-80 scale, but it sure seems to me that 12 out of 20 isn't horrible, especially at first base for a guy who has plus-plus power.

EDIT TO ADD: I know his range and error ratings are low, but again, it's first base, not shortstop. It's a offense-first position.

Well, he plays 1B to begin with. Pretty much any 1B other than a Keith Hernandez type has zero defensive value once the positional adjustment is taken into account. That he's not the worst defensive 1B around still doesn't mean he actually has any defensive value.

As for Ryan Howard, I didn't say he was like Ryan Howard at Howard's peak

[TribeFanInNC]

It's all speculation since we can't see the players that were included in the ASG. Maybe the OP can throw up the stats of the other 1Bs on the team. But as noted, it's certainly quite possible that the player noted isn't one of the top 13 WAR guys. A projection of 4.4 WAR for the season may not be "All-Star caliber". Of course, to extrapolate from the OP's point, that player would almost certainly end up in a real ASG because fans don't give a hoot about doubles and defense. To quote Mark McGwire from the Simpsons episode - "Who wants to see some dingers!"

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

Well, he plays 1B to begin with. Pretty much any 1B other than a Keith Hernandez type has zero defensive value once the positional adjustment is taken into account. That he's not the worst defensive 1B around still doesn't mean he actually has any defensive value.

As for Ryan Howard, I didn't say he was like Ryan Howard at Howard's peak

The first part is essentially my point. It's not fair to knock a guy for his defense when he plays a position where only elite defensive skills have any value. The problem with that, though, is that WAR does put some negative value on his defense, which is a flaw in the WAR statistic, in my book.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

The first part is essentially my point. It's not fair to knock a guy for his defense when he plays a position where only elite defensive skills have any value. The problem with that, though, is that WAR does put some negative value on his defense, which is a flaw in the WAR statistic, in my book.

I think it is fair in this context, which is choosing an all-star team.

There aren't typically enough spots on an all-star team to choose two-three guys at a given position. So if he's not the top 1B chosen, he's competing for a bench spot with guys who play every other position, nearly all of which will have more or much more defensive value than he does.

Add in his other issues, and it's certainly not a great injustice he didn't make the ASG. Maybe a slight snub, maybe not, depending on the years other guys are having.

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

I think it is fair in this context, which is choosing an all-star team.

There aren't typically enough spots on an all-star team to choose two-three guys at a given position. So if he's not the top 1B chosen, he's competing for a bench spot with guys who play every other position, nearly all of which will have more or much more defensive value than he does.

Add in his other issues, and it's certainly not a great injustice he didn't make the ASG. Maybe a slight snub, maybe not, depending on the years other guys are having.

Actually, now that I think about it, the reason you and I disagree is probably because OOTP all-star rosters are smaller than in real life. There were 21 position players on the AL roster in 2013, while OOTP only picks 13 position players (according to GiantYankee's post in this thread). I've been arguing in terms of a real-life roster size which has room for at least two guys at each field position (not counting DH), while I get the impression you're talking in terms of OOTP's roster size.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

Actually, now that I think about it, the reason you and I disagree is probably because OOTP all-star rosters are smaller than in real life. There were 21 position players on the AL roster in 2013, while OOTP only picks 13 position players (according to GiantYankee's post in this thread). I've been arguing in terms of a real-life roster size which has room for at least two guys at each field position (not counting DH), while I get the impression you're talking in terms of OOTP's roster size.

You're right It'd be nice if OOTP used rl sized rosters, but since it doesn't...

[Death2Life]

This player actually finished the year with 56 HRs #1 ranking, and about 170 RBIs #1 ranking, and an average around .300. I will never agree he deserved to be snubbed, but then again he is on my team so I am biased.


The next season he finally made the all star game.


The kid has a shot (if he stays healthy) to break records. His production has been very consistent each year. He has around 200 homeruns now and is still only about 24 years old!


Death2Life