Did Cal retire just in time? (Talkin' roids)

[Papa3]

As an Orioles fan since Cal Ripken's career began, I can't help but think he may have been on the juice. If you look at the circumstances it's certainly possible -- if not probable.

Of course he's got The Streak, but years earlier all we heard around here was that he needed a rest because his game was floundering. Then all of a sudden he had an MVP year followed by some of his better hitting seasons in his mid and late 30's.

Add that to the huge steroid scandal in Baltimore which included Rafael Palmeiro (whose steroid-fueled seasons were played alongside Cal) and two of his replacements at shortstop, Manny Alexander and Miguel Tejada. Heck 19 of the 89 players in the 2007 Mitchell Report were current and former Orioles.

Is there a huge coverup going on that baseball is doing its damnedest to keep secret? Could you imagine the effect on baseball if we discovered that Ripken's use of steroids was the catalyst behind his eclipse of Gehrig's Ironman record? I personally think it would be much worse than the stain left by Barry Bonds because Gehrig has a mythical esteem unlike the still living Hank Aaron.

I sure hope I'm wrong but I've questioned this for years.

[jbergey22]

I think personally the streak is a good reason to believe he didnt use steroids. The steroid users seem to get a lot of nagging injuries(muscle strains/pulls).

[wireman]

Don't think so. It's not like he suddenly started looking like Paul Bunyan and hitting freakishly many homers.

[Papa3]

Originally Posted by wireman

Don't think so. It's not like he suddenly started looking like Paul Bunyan and hitting freakishly many homers.

I get what you're saying but I imagine there's a way to train on steroids that it improves your recovery time more than using it to hulk up. Looking at Roger Clemens, he threw harder before steroids but his career dragged on for years.

I'm not convinced about the nagging injuries theory either. Looking at just Tejada and Palmeiro, they both had no problem staying healthy. Tejada too was an ironman playing 1152 straight while Palmeiro, who was always durable, played more in the years in question than earlier in his career. For six straight seasons he played 158+ including twice playing 162.

One more guy, Gary Sheffield, had problems staying healthy all throughout his 20's. Once he reached his 30's, when his numbers began to skyrocket, so did the number of games he played in. I also looked up Jason Giambi and he was the only one that seemed to have trouble staying healthy.

[wireman]

Originally Posted by Papa3

I get what you're saying but I imagine there's a way to train on steroids that it improves your recovery time more than using it to hulk up. Looking at Roger Clemens, he threw harder before steroids but his career dragged on for years.

I'm not convinced about the nagging injuries theory either. Looking at just Tejada and Palmeiro, they both had no problem staying healthy. Tejada too was an ironman playing 1152 straight while Palmeiro, who was always durable, played more in the years in question than earlier in his career. For six straight seasons he played 158+ including twice playing 162.

One more guy, Gary Sheffield, had problems staying healthy all throughout his 20's. Once he reached his 30's, when his numbers began to skyrocket, so did the number of games he played in. I also looked up Jason Giambi and he was the only one that seemed to have trouble staying healthy.

True enough, but Ripken was always amazingly durable, no? I don't think you need to hypothesize steroids to explain his later career; I'm not an expert on such things, but his career arc seems pretty plausible to me.

I'm not a huge Ripken fan either, but why believe the worst?

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Papa3

I get what you're saying but I imagine there's a way to train on steroids that it improves your recovery time more than using it to hulk up. Looking at Roger Clemens, he threw harder before steroids but his career dragged on for years.

I'm not convinced about the nagging injuries theory either. Looking at just Tejada and Palmeiro, they both had no problem staying healthy. Tejada too was an ironman playing 1152 straight while Palmeiro, who was always durable, played more in the years in question than earlier in his career. For six straight seasons he played 158+ including twice playing 162.

One more guy, Gary Sheffield, had problems staying healthy all throughout his 20's. Once he reached his 30's, when his numbers began to skyrocket, so did the number of games he played in. I also looked up Jason Giambi and he was the only one that seemed to have trouble staying healthy.

Bonds, ARod, McGwire, Caminiti, Canseco, Justice, Morse, Peralta, M Ramirez, M Vaughn, R White.

This is just a list off the top of my head of users who seemed to miss a lot of games. Many of these guys went from "ironman" to fragile. In my opinion it is from the nagging, none serious muscle strain type injuries. I believe Palmeiro was a DH a large amount during the end of his career.

[Papa3]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Bonds, ARod, McGwire, Caminiti, Canseco, Justice, Morse, Peralta, M Ramirez, M Vaughn, R White.

This is just a list off the top of my head of users who seemed to miss a lot of games. Many of these guys went from "ironman" to fragile. In my opinion it is from the nagging, none serious muscle strain type injuries. I believe Palmeiro was a DH a large amount during the end of his career.

You're absolutely right. Almost all the guys you named had injury problems while using. However I see where four of them probably saw more playing time because of steroids. Also Raffy played 1B almost exclusively until he began his second stint in Texas in '99.

Here's what I found about those four guys I mentioned...

McGwire never played more games in a 3-year span than from 1997-99

Justice always dealt with injuries, but the 6-year stretch he played the most games were his last 6

A-Rod admitted to using from 2001-03. He played 162, 162, 161 those years - his only such streak.

Manny always had injury problems but his best three year stretch of games was 2003-05 (age 31-33) playing 154, 152, 152.

I agree 100% that steroids CAN lead to nagging injuries in some guys. But I'm seeing where guys play just as often, and some cases more often, while using. In fact Tejada, Palmeiro, and Rodriguez were able to play every game in seasons they used.

Based on what I've found, I feel safe saying that Ripken could have continued his streak on steroids and they could have actually helped prolong his streak.

[Papa3]

Originally Posted by wireman

True enough, but Ripken was always amazingly durable, no? I don't think you need to hypothesize steroids to explain his later career; I'm not an expert on such things, but his career arc seems pretty plausible to me.



I'm not a huge Ripken fan either, but why believe the worst?

I was born 25 minutes from Memorial Stadium in 1978 so my whole life as an O's fan was Cal Ripken Jr. Watching him the years, months and days leading up to 2131 was surreal.
He obviously was durable to begin with but, as with The Streak, we weren't accusing McGwire and Sosa of juicing during their magical runs to 62 and I am asserting nothing more than a suspicion.

Ripken was always played off as a man of outstanding character and he filled it quite well but I felt something was amiss with that. The whole Kevin Costner sleeping with his wife thing was beyond strange. He was rumored to beat Costner up. 'Roid rage? I doubt it. But who knows? I don't think that's something any of the three would want to admit.

Steroids are known to accelerate baldness in those with a predisposition for it. Cal's father and brother are bald, but Cal lost all his hair VERY quickly. One year he had it, the next I was shocked how bald he was. Again, I thought nothing of it at the time.

And frankly, I think the LACK of rumors about Ripken possibly taking steroids is telling. I don't know if you remember Brady Anderson. A solid lead off guy with pop, he slugged 50 homers one year. A guy the women swooned over at the time, the rumors were "He's gay." Nowadays, they're "He juiced."

Steroids were widespread in the O's clubhouse, we found out a decade later. Just about every big name has been attached in some form. But I've never heard "Ripken." Something just seems off.

[Jason]

His name hasn't been mentioned because he didn't do 'roids.

Man, I get really tired of people concocting false rumors about guys.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Jason

His name hasn't been mentioned because he didn't do 'roids.

Man, I get really tired of people concocting false rumors about guys.

Hmm, I wonder if Craig Biggio would agree with you.

[wireman]

Originally Posted by Papa3

I was born 25 minutes from Memorial Stadium in 1978 so my whole life as an O's fan was Cal Ripken Jr. Watching him the years, months and days leading up to 2131 was surreal.
He obviously was durable to begin with but, as with The Streak, we weren't accusing McGwire and Sosa of juicing during their magical runs to 62 and I am asserting nothing more than a suspicion.

Ripken was always played off as a man of outstanding character and he filled it quite well but I felt something was amiss with that. The whole Kevin Costner sleeping with his wife thing was beyond strange. He was rumored to beat Costner up. 'Roid rage? I doubt it. But who knows? I don't think that's something any of the three would want to admit.

Steroids are known to accelerate baldness in those with a predisposition for it. Cal's father and brother are bald, but Cal lost all his hair VERY quickly. One year he had it, the next I was shocked how bald he was. Again, I thought nothing of it at the time.

And frankly, I think the LACK of rumors about Ripken possibly taking steroids is telling. I don't know if you remember Brady Anderson. A solid lead off guy with pop, he slugged 50 homers one year. A guy the women swooned over at the time, the rumors were "He's gay." Nowadays, they're "He juiced."

Steroids were widespread in the O's clubhouse, we found out a decade later. Just about every big name has been attached in some form. But I've never heard "Ripken." Something just seems off.

I'm not a big fan of the "he seems so clean, he must be dirty" argument. (Where there's no smoke, there's fire?) Still, I get what you mean. I guess I want a little bit more of something that looks like a smoking gun. I'm not going looking for feet of clay. YMMV.

[Papa3]

Originally Posted by Jason

His name hasn't been mentioned because he didn't do 'roids.

Man, I get really tired of people concocting false rumors about guys.

Something else just came to mind...Cal Ripken has been the undisputed ambassador of Orioles for just about 30 years now. The guy bought and moved a minor league affiliate of theirs to his Maryland hometown and are playing in Ripken Stadium. His dad was a player, coach and manager in the organization for 36 years and didn't die until 1999 -- long after steroids already infiltrated the clubhouse. His brother spent years here as well.

Did I miss something or did Ripken ever acknowledge he was aware of the rampant steroid use on the team? If he didn't, he's gotta be lying. Wouldn't he be among the first to find out? He'd almost certainly know before the owner, the GM, or the manager.

I don't think it's possible that a guy with his stature and influence was unaware that 19 of his teammates (who have been allegedly proven in the Mitchell Report) used steroids. So assuming he did know, is there a reason he uttered not a word? Did he himself have something to hide?

Ripken's situation is far different than the any other guy of this era. No other team in the league was so infected by steroids. Around the league it was "a player here, a player there" kind of thing. I could see that being hush, hush rumors. Not so in Baltimore. When you allegedly have at least 19 guys you're playing with juicing up, it had to have become a part of the team's culture.

Ripken is the Orioles and the Orioles are Ripken. I don't think there's a player alive today that identifies so closely with one team. The face of this franchise must have known. But I'm wondering out loud if he was involved in more ways than that.

[jbergey22]

What we he have to gain by "ratting" on his past teammates? You really are digging hard for smoke that isnt there. Did he not sign an autograph for you or what is the real story here?

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by wireman

Don't think so. It's not like he suddenly started looking like Paul Bunyan and hitting freakishly many homers.

I go with this statement. Also, it's my impression that steroids don't prevent injuries (may even precipitate them, as jbergey says) so Cal's record and reputation should stand.

I don't blame Papa for questioning; it's a natural reaction to what we experienced in the last 10 or 15 years. The fact that Ripken's streak started in 1982 and ended in 1998 does not necessarily mean it was "pre-steroid era."

However, this achievement and the man himself just do not seem to fit the modus operandi and profile of the cheaters.

[Papa3]

Originally Posted by wireman

I'm not a big fan of the "he seems so clean, he must be dirty" argument. (Where there's no smoke, there's fire?) Still, I get what you mean. I guess I want a little bit more of something that looks like a smoking gun. I'm not going looking for feet of clay. YMMV.

If I had a smoking gun, I wouldn't be thinking aloud here. I'd be looking for a lawyer to keep my ass out of jail. I guess I'm mostly surprised that it hasn't been talked about, especially considering some of the thoughts in my other post just now. I'm not trying to start a nasty rumor but it would be nice to know what some other guys like me think about this when we try adding everything up.

[knightdreamer2k]

Originally Posted by Papa3

Something else just came to mind...Cal Ripken has been the undisputed ambassador of Orioles for just about 30 years now. The guy bought and moved a minor league affiliate of theirs to his Maryland hometown and are playing in Ripken Stadium. His dad was a player, coach and manager in the organization for 36 years and didn't die until 1999 -- long after steroids already infiltrated the clubhouse. His brother spent years here as well.

Did I miss something or did Ripken ever acknowledge he was aware of the rampant steroid use on the team? If he didn't, he's gotta be lying. Wouldn't he be among the first to find out? He'd almost certainly know before the owner, the GM, or the manager.

I don't think it's possible that a guy with his stature and influence was unaware that 19 of his teammates (who have been allegedly proven in the Mitchell Report) used steroids. So assuming he did know, is there a reason he uttered not a word? Did he himself have something to hide?

Ripken's situation is far different than the any other guy of this era. No other team in the league was so infected by steroids. Around the league it was "a player here, a player there" kind of thing. I could see that being hush, hush rumors. Not so in Baltimore. When you allegedly have at least 19 guys you're playing with juicing up, it had to have become a part of the team's culture.

Ripken is the Orioles and the Orioles are Ripken. I don't think there's a player alive today that identifies so closely with one team. The face of this franchise must have known. But I'm wondering out loud if he was involved in more ways than that.

I understand what you are saying. I'm a Yankee fan and for all I know Jeter could be on steriods.

Unfortunately that is what the steriod era brought is alot of mistrust and doubts. I think we just have to move on and not worry too much about who is clean and who isn't because we honestly don't know most of the time.

In regards to injuries though I do know players used to recover from injuries faster so there could be truth to extend careers with the use of Steriods.

[Papa3]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

What we he have to gain by "ratting" on his past teammates? You really are digging hard for smoke that isnt there. Did he not sign an autograph for you or what is the real story here?

If I'm Cal Ripken and guys like Larry Bigbie and David Segui are juicing up around me, I'd want to keep my legacy clean. Screw those guys when I'm a first-ballot HOFer who will always first be mentioned in the same breath as Lou Gehrig.

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by Papa3

Ripken was always played off as a man of outstanding character and he filled it quite well but I felt something was amiss with that.

Why was something amiss? If somebody as a good character does it mean there must be something lurking in their past, some people are of good character nothing amiss about it.

Originally Posted by Papa3

Steroids are known to accelerate baldness in those with a predisposition for it. Cal's father and brother are bald, but Cal lost all his hair VERY quickly. One year he had it, the next I was shocked how bald he was. Again, I thought nothing of it at the time.

If his father and brother were bald then good chance he would go bald, the speed thing is just luck of the draw.

Originally Posted by Papa3

And frankly, I think the LACK of rumors about Ripken possibly taking steroids is telling.

This is a kind of where theres no smoke theres still a fire, in a way your saying EVERY baseball player as taken steroids. The ones were there is proof are guilty and the ones were there is no proof are guilty

Originally Posted by Papa3

Steroids were widespread in the O's clubhouse, we found out a decade later. Just about every big name has been attached in some form. But I've never heard "Ripken." Something just seems off.

I'll give you an example for this, when I was young my cousins were always in trouble, stealing, drinking etc. Police were always stopping them but although the police knew I was related to them they never stopped me knowing I wasn't that kind of person, just because some of the apples are bad doesn't mean the whole barrel is.


Anyway onto Ripken apart from when he was 33/34 he played in at least 160 games per season from when he was 21 to 37, his home run output was a steady 20+ a season apart from 1991 when he hit 34 which wasn't a massive leap from his 23 career avg. In fact apart from the games streak all his seasons were average to him, his best season was actually when he was 22 so if he did use steroids he was using before he came to the majors and was using every season. I personally would go against him using, his seasons were just solid and average to his stats.

[wireman]

Originally Posted by Papa3

If I had a smoking gun, I wouldn't be thinking aloud here. I'd be looking for a lawyer to keep my ass out of jail. I guess I'm mostly surprised that it hasn't been talked about, especially considering some of the thoughts in my other post just now. I'm not trying to start a nasty rumor but it would be nice to know what some other guys like me think about this when we try adding everything up.

I guess I'm lucky: When I was a kid, nobody had to wonder if Eddie Yost was juicing.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Papa3

If I'm Cal Ripken and guys like Larry Bigbie and David Segui are juicing up around me, I'd want to keep my legacy clean. Screw those guys when I'm a first-ballot HOFer who will always first be mentioned in the same breath as Lou Gehrig.

Maybe some players do feel this way but they are also considered "selfish." A good teammate and leader, like Cal was, does not throw their other teammates under the bus. Since Cal is a managers son I would speculate he feels stronger about this concept than most.

Id prefer to think he was clean and see no reason to go assume the worst.

Maybe went Gehrig comes on again he can add something? He was a former teammate of Cal.