Spring Training

alhill · 12-06-2001, 05:38 AM

I just finished my first season with my challenge league team. We went 84-78, a pretty respectable performance, but I missed the wildcard by two games. So I go through the playoffs, the off season, etc. etc. and get to Spring Training. Spring Training allows you to allocate points to different players for their skills or to learn a new position. Unfortunately, I didn't have any points to allocate! How do you get allocation points?

kryptiix · 12-06-2001, 05:40 AM

It sets every attribute at 5 to start, you must take points away from one attribute by clicking on the minus and then you will be able to distrubute that point(s).

Scott Vibert · 12-06-2001, 05:41 AM

You willl need to take some points from another rating to do this. The points represent time spent on each discipline... so in order to learn a new position you must take some time away from something else. Just hit the down arrows in some of the other areas that you don't mind risking less development (or possibly even skill loss in an older player) and assign the points to learn new position. The game should tell you how many points you need to successfully learn the new position.

sporr · 12-06-2001, 06:15 AM

I never usually mess with the default Spring training numbers. It just seems that the reward doesn't really outweigh the time involved.

alhill · 12-06-2001, 07:25 AM

Another question: in the big long Spring Training Report it would say something like:

Player has increased control...
Player has less velocity

Does this mean my guy has permanent lost velocity or does it mean that he failed to gain velocity. Do players often regress during spring training?

Killebrew · 12-06-2001, 06:44 PM

[quote]Originally posted by alhill:
Another question: in the big long Spring Training Report it would say something like:

Player has increased control...
Player has less velocity

Does this mean my guy has permanent lost velocity
or does it mean that he failed to gain velocity.
<hr></blockquote>

It means he has lost some velocity. Ratings are always changing so you can't really say it is permanent.

[quote]Originally posted by alhill:
Do players often regress during spring training?<hr></blockquote>

ST is designed to give out bonuses, not dole out penalties, but if you zero out area's or have many old players (35+) then you will see a lot of negatives too. Currently there may not be enough penalties for zeroing out any one area of ST practice. The user can try to take advantage of this by stacking some practice area's with less risk of losing any ratings elsewhere.

In my 5 <a href="http://www.thefobl.com/testdata/spring_training_2001.htm">ST tests</a> with 4 teams of 33 players per test there were 446 positive ratings advances, and 288 negative developments. There was no positive talent devel but 19 of the negative talent changes included talent going from AVG to FAIR in one area. In 11 out of 20 tries I was successful in converting my C endurance MR into an SP (6 times with an E endurance rating, 5 times with a D endurance rating). 227 of the 288 negative developments were defensive range drops.

Batter power and pitcher endurance are 2 area's people have mentioned in the past can be zeroed out with no penalty, and these tests backed those statements up. They also showed the risk of any rating penalty was mostly on the pitchers, the only negative changes for the batters was in talent ratings dropping from AVG to FAIR (and the defensive range ability drops). Of the 19 talent rating drops - 11 went to batters (details below). That also means of the 61 non-defensive range related negative changes, 50 went to pitchers.

Results
<dir>[*]Using default ratings (5's across the board - <a href="http://www.thefobl.com/testdata/spring_training_2001.htm">settings used</a>) with Average coaches resulted in 43 positive changes and no negative changes in 5 Spring Training runs.[*]Using extreme ratings (<a href="http://www.thefobl.com/testdata/spring_training_2001.htm">settings used</a>) and Brilliant coaches resulted in 136 positive ratings changes and 96 negative ratings changes in 5 Spring Training runs. 76 of the 96 negative ratings changes were defensive range drops[*]Using extreme ratings (<a href="http://www.thefobl.com/testdata/spring_training_2001.htm">settings used</a>) and Average coaches resulted in 136 positive ratings changes and 99 negative ratings changes in 5 Spring Training runs. This included 3 MR to SP conversions (60% success rate) and 5 talent drops (AVG to FAIR). 76 of the 99 negative ratings changes were defensive range drops[*]Using extreme ratings (<a href="http://www.thefobl.com/testdata/spring_training_2001.htm">settings used</a>) and Terrible coaches resulted in 131 positive ratings changes and 93 negative ratings changes in 5 Spring Training runs. This included 3 MR to SP conversions (60% success rate) and 5 talent drops (AVG to FAIR). 75 of the 93 negative ratings changes were defensive range drops
</dir>

It appears like coaches have little or no effect on ST execpt maybe when it comes to switching positions.

The Talent Drops
9 negative talent changes on hitters "Getting Hits" ability: 3 X 20 points on Power Hitting, 4 X 20 points on Strike Zone, 1 X on 10POW_10STR, and 1 X on 15DEF_NEW.

2 negative talent changes on hitters "Getting Walks" ability: 1 X on "15DEF_NEW", and 1 X 20 on Power Hitting.

5 negative talent changes on pitchers "Avoiding Walks" ability: 2 x 20 on Velocity, 2 X 20 on Pure Stuff, and 1 on Stamina.

3 negative talent changes on pitchers "Getting Strikeouts" ability: 1 X on 10PUR_10CON, 1 X 20 on Stamina, and 1 X 20 on Control.

Defensive Practice
For defensive practice if you minus 1 point you may as well minus all 5 points as most of the time -1 is all you need to drop 1 defensive range grade. This drop will only effect the players primary position, so a A-A-A LF with def. practice zeroed will become a B-A-A LF. Note that you cannot drop more than 1 defensive grade per ST and you can't go lower than "E".

Using these settings and results a GM using the default "5" ST settings would have a 0.26% chance of positive ST development and no chance of negative changes. The GM taking advantage of holes in the Spring Training logic would have a 0.81% chance of positive ST development and a 0.58% chance of negative changes. I acknowledge these tests are far from complete but those were the results using these settings.

[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: Killebrew ]

Joe M. · 12-06-2001, 08:50 PM

Those are some nice observations. I can only hope ver. 4 is getting some improve spring training time.

Glen · 12-07-2001, 07:07 AM

Gotta say Killebrew, you must be a QA tester or something.

To go through that kind of effort... whew... I got winded reading it.

Glen

Killebrew · 12-07-2001, 03:20 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Glen:
Gotta say Killebrew, you must be a QA tester or something.

To go through that kind of effort... whew... I got winded reading it.

Glen<hr></blockquote>

Hehe - these tests are so far from perfect, but running them still took a tremendous amount of time. I wanted to do much more but alas, I got winded too

. Still, in a few key area's I feel confident that the results are very accurate and useful for online leagues considering using the ST feature. There are certainly some loopholes in the ST code, but I still think it's fun part of the game to manage. If all the online leagues GM's understand it's foibles then it can be fair too.

BTW, on the old-old board there were many more early OOTP3 ST tests (many on the defensive practise angle which I no longer have).

Scott Vibert · 12-07-2001, 04:18 PM

Yeah it's too bad we lost all of those tests.... but then again maybe some of us will forget all the exploits for the Spring Training AI with out having them around.

Killebrew · 12-07-2001, 04:31 PM

[quote]Originally posted by ScottVib:
Yeah it's too bad we lost all of those tests.... but then again maybe some of us will forget all the exploits for the Spring Training AI with out having them around.<hr></blockquote>

I am not trying to encourage expoiting the game as I'm sure you understand Scott, I just think think it's important, especially for online leagues, for all GM's to be on level ground

.

Henry · 12-07-2001, 05:52 PM

Killebrew,

You should polish that up as an FAQ - even if it's not done

and by the way, the tests I did on ballpark factors are on the BCB site, so we didn't lose that one.

Bagpipes5 · 12-11-2001, 08:41 PM

I have a question about spring training.

I was wondering if you worked on the 'stamina' of a middle reliever in spring training. Would this raise his stamina at relief as well as his starter rating if he has one? I ask because most relievers have an E for starter duration and I would like my emergency guy to be able to work a little deeper into the game. Thanks.

Killebrew · 12-11-2001, 08:53 PM

[quote]Originally posted by WizardofOs44:
I have a question about spring training.

I was wondering if you worked on the 'stamina' of a middle reliever in spring training. Would this raise his stamina at relief as well as his starter rating if he has one? I ask because most relievers have an E for starter duration and I would like my emergency guy to be able to work a little deeper into the game. Thanks.<hr></blockquote>

I haven't tested this as IMO a MR with a starters endurance rating is a rare thing in the game. At least, it is in fictional leagues where the game creates the MR. I would guess this might be the same as positional defensive practise - only applying to the main position (in this example MR). Easy thing to test though

.

William4192 · 12-09-2003, 11:15 AM

Did we ever get an answer on this?

Henry · 12-09-2003, 11:51 AM

As Killebrew said, it's an easy thing to test. There are too many possibilities and questions as to what Spring Training can and can't do for anyone to write up a comprehensive answer - besides, it shouldn't be a mathematical equation - more like trial and error

Sagitta · 12-09-2003, 03:12 PM

One thing I always do in Spring training is run the coaches recommendations - then eliminate any endurance training for my closer.

I've had mediocre closers turn into beasts because I do away with all stamina trining in lieu of the other stats.

LJR · 12-09-2003, 04:57 PM

in my experience, only the stamina at the position he's listed at goes up a letter grade if you devote enough points to endurance....in other words, if he's listed as a SP, then his SP Endurance will go up from and E to a D while his reliever endurance remains a C. If he's listed as a MR, then his reliever endurance will go up from a C to a B while his starting endurance remains an E. Just make sure to toggle the player to the SP or MR/CL according to where u want endurance to increase.

Eric Gagne has become quite the formidable SP now that I've been able to increase his SP endurance up to a D from an E....:-)

Killebrew · 12-09-2003, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LJR
in my experience, only the stamina at the position he's listed at goes up a letter grade if you devote enough points to endurance....in other words, if he's listed as a SP, then his SP Endurance will go up from and E to a D while his reliever endurance remains a C. If he's listed as a MR, then his reliever endurance will go up from a C to a B while his starting endurance remains an E. Just make sure to toggle the player to the SP or MR/CL according to where u want endurance to increase.

Eric Gagne has become quite the formidable SP now that I've been able to increase his SP endurance up to a D from an E....:-)

That is true, and the reverse is one of the remaining Spring Training (ST) loopholes in OOTP. If you have an E endurance SP you can zero out stamina and he can't lose any endurance points since E is as low as you can go. Many of the ST effects only impact the primary defensive position or pitching role, for example increasing endurance as LJR describes above, or increasing the defensive range at the current listed prime position. Because of this quirk it's important to always change the defensive position or pitching role of a player before ST if you want to focus the ST benefits. I think most online league either do not allow ST changes or they create strict rules to restrict the loophole impact so if you are in an online league that allows ST adjustments you may as well take advantage of it

.

mrbill · 12-16-2003, 10:23 PM

Yep, I'm in the game league as LJR and there's rules keeping people from changing a SP to a MR/CL, mostly because of the contract issue and changing demands based on role.

The loophole is bad enough so that you could change all your pitchers to the opposite role (SP->MR and MR->SP), take everyone's 5 points from endurance and use it elsewhere, and no pitcher will lose any endurance from their main role.

This works even if a MR has no SP endurance, you can still make him an SP, take away the 5 points, and then you don't even see any loss in SP EN because its not even there.

Oh well, all that endurance stuff will go away soon enough with just one rating for it.

12-06-2001, 05:38 AM	#1
alhill Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 79	Spring Training I just finished my first season with my challenge league team. We went 84-78, a pretty respectable performance, but I missed the wildcard by two games. So I go through the playoffs, the off season, etc. etc. and get to Spring Training. Spring Training allows you to allocate points to different players for their skills or to learn a new position. Unfortunately, I didn't have any points to allocate! How do you get allocation points?

12-06-2001, 06:44 PM	#6
Killebrew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 3,326	[quote]Originally posted by alhill: <strong>Another question: in the big long Spring Training Report it would say something like: Player has increased control... Player has less velocity Does this mean my guy has permanent lost velocity or does it mean that he failed to gain velocity. </strong><hr></blockquote> It means he has lost some velocity. Ratings are always changing so you can't really say it is permanent. [quote]Originally posted by alhill: <strong>Do players often regress during spring training?</strong><hr></blockquote> ST is designed to give out bonuses, not dole out penalties, but if you zero out area's or have many old players (35+) then you will see a lot of negatives too. Currently there may not be enough penalties for zeroing out any one area of ST practice. The user can try to take advantage of this by stacking some practice area's with less risk of losing any ratings elsewhere. In my 5 <a href="http://www.thefobl.com/testdata/spring_training_2001.htm">ST tests</a> with 4 teams of 33 players per test there were 446 positive ratings advances, and 288 negative developments. There was no positive talent devel but 19 of the negative talent changes included talent going from AVG to FAIR in one area. In 11 out of 20 tries I was successful in converting my C endurance MR into an SP (6 times with an E endurance rating, 5 times with a D endurance rating). 227 of the 288 negative developments were defensive range drops. Batter power and pitcher endurance are 2 area's people have mentioned in the past can be zeroed out with no penalty, and these tests backed those statements up. They also showed the risk of any rating penalty was mostly on the pitchers, the only negative changes for the batters was in talent ratings dropping from AVG to FAIR (and the defensive range ability drops). Of the 19 talent rating drops - 11 went to batters (details below). That also means of the 61 non-defensive range related negative changes, 50 went to pitchers. *Results* <dir>[]Using default ratings (5's across the board - <a href="http://www.thefobl.com/testdata/spring_training_2001.htm">settings used</a>) with Average* coaches resulted in 43 positive changes and no negative changes in 5 Spring Training runs.[]Using extreme ratings (<a href="http://www.thefobl.com/testdata/spring_training_2001.htm">settings used</a>) and Brilliant* coaches resulted in 136 positive ratings changes and 96 negative ratings changes in 5 Spring Training runs. 76 of the 96 negative ratings changes were defensive range drops[]Using extreme ratings (<a href="http://www.thefobl.com/testdata/spring_training_2001.htm">settings used</a>) and Average* coaches resulted in 136 positive ratings changes and 99 negative ratings changes in 5 Spring Training runs. This included 3 MR to SP conversions (60% success rate) and 5 talent drops (AVG to FAIR). 76 of the 99 negative ratings changes were defensive range drops[]Using extreme ratings (<a href="http://www.thefobl.com/testdata/spring_training_2001.htm">settings used</a>) and Terrible* coaches resulted in 131 positive ratings changes and 93 negative ratings changes in 5 Spring Training runs. This included 3 MR to SP conversions (60% success rate) and 5 talent drops (AVG to FAIR). 75 of the 93 negative ratings changes were defensive range drops </dir> It appears like coaches have little or no effect on ST execpt maybe when it comes to switching positions. *The Talent Drops* 9 negative talent changes on hitters "Getting Hits" ability: 3 X 20 points on Power Hitting, 4 X 20 points on Strike Zone, 1 X on 10POW_10STR, and 1 X on 15DEF_NEW. 2 negative talent changes on hitters "Getting Walks" ability: 1 X on "15DEF_NEW", and 1 X 20 on Power Hitting. 5 negative talent changes on pitchers "Avoiding Walks" ability: 2 x 20 on Velocity, 2 X 20 on Pure Stuff, and 1 on Stamina. 3 negative talent changes on pitchers "Getting Strikeouts" ability: 1 X on 10PUR_10CON, 1 X 20 on Stamina, and 1 X 20 on Control. *Defensive Practice* For defensive practice if you minus 1 point you may as well minus all 5 points as most of the time -1 is all you need to drop 1 defensive range grade. This drop will only effect the players primary position, so a A-A-A LF with def. practice zeroed will become a B-A-A LF. Note that you cannot drop more than 1 defensive grade per ST and you can't go lower than "E". Using these settings and results a GM using the default "5" ST settings would have a 0.26% chance of positive ST development and no chance of negative changes. The GM taking advantage of holes in the Spring Training logic would have a 0.81% chance of positive ST development and a 0.58% chance of negative changes. I acknowledge these tests are far from complete but those were the results using these settings. [ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: Killebrew ]</p> __________________ FOBL Capital City Metropolitans CDL Minnesota Twins

12-07-2001, 07:07 AM	#8
Glen Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 153	Gotta say Killebrew, you must be a QA tester or something. To go through that kind of effort... whew... I got winded reading it. Glen __________________ Colorado Rockies - DBLC

12-07-2001, 03:20 PM	#9
Killebrew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 3,326	[quote]Originally posted by Glen: <strong>Gotta say Killebrew, you must be a QA tester or something. To go through that kind of effort... whew... I got winded reading it. Glen</strong><hr></blockquote> Hehe - these tests are so far from perfect, but running them still took a tremendous amount of time. I wanted to do much more but alas, I got winded too . Still, in a few key area's I feel confident that the results are very accurate and useful for online leagues considering using the ST feature. There are certainly some loopholes in the ST code, but I still think it's fun part of the game to manage. If all the online leagues GM's understand it's foibles then it can be fair too. BTW, on the old-old board there were many more early OOTP3 ST tests (many on the defensive practise angle which I no longer have). __________________ FOBL Capital City Metropolitans CDL Minnesota Twins

12-07-2001, 04:31 PM	#11
Killebrew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 3,326	[quote]Originally posted by ScottVib: <strong>Yeah it's too bad we lost all of those tests.... but then again maybe some of us will forget all the exploits for the Spring Training AI with out having them around.</strong><hr></blockquote> I am not trying to encourage expoiting the game as I'm sure you understand Scott, I just think think it's important, especially for online leagues, for all GM's to be on level ground . __________________ FOBL Capital City Metropolitans CDL Minnesota Twins

12-06-2001, 05:40 AM	#2
kryptiix Bat Boy Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 5	It sets every attribute at 5 to start, you must take points away from one attribute by clicking on the minus and then you will be able to distrubute that point(s).

12-06-2001, 05:41 AM	#3
Scott Vibert Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: My Computer Posts: 8,210	You willl need to take some points from another rating to do this. The points represent time spent on each discipline... so in order to learn a new position you must take some time away from something else. Just hit the down arrows in some of the other areas that you don't mind risking less development (or possibly even skill loss in an older player) and assign the points to learn new position. The game should tell you how many points you need to successfully learn the new position.

12-06-2001, 06:15 AM	#4
sporr Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Muscatine, IA Posts: 8,277	I never usually mess with the default Spring training numbers. It just seems that the reward doesn't really outweigh the time involved.

12-06-2001, 07:25 AM	#5
alhill Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 79	Another question: in the big long Spring Training Report it would say something like: Player has increased control... Player has less velocity Does this mean my guy has permanent lost velocity or does it mean that he failed to gain velocity. Do players often regress during spring training?

12-06-2001, 08:50 PM	#7
Joe M. Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 46	Those are some nice observations. I can only hope ver. 4 is getting some improve spring training time.

12-07-2001, 04:18 PM	#10
Scott Vibert Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: My Computer Posts: 8,210	Yeah it's too bad we lost all of those tests.... but then again maybe some of us will forget all the exploits for the Spring Training AI with out having them around.

12-07-2001, 05:52 PM	#12
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	Killebrew, You should polish that up as an FAQ - even if it's not done and by the way, the tests I did on ballpark factors are on the BCB site, so we didn't lose that one.

12-11-2001, 08:41 PM	#13
Bagpipes5 Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: TX Posts: 467	I have a question about spring training. I was wondering if you worked on the 'stamina' of a middle reliever in spring training. Would this raise his stamina at relief as well as his starter rating if he has one? I ask because most relievers have an E for starter duration and I would like my emergency guy to be able to work a little deeper into the game. Thanks.

12-11-2001, 08:53 PM	#14
Killebrew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 3,326	[quote]Originally posted by WizardofOs44: <strong>I have a question about spring training. I was wondering if you worked on the 'stamina' of a middle reliever in spring training. Would this raise his stamina at relief as well as his starter rating if he has one? I ask because most relievers have an E for starter duration and I would like my emergency guy to be able to work a little deeper into the game. Thanks.</strong><hr></blockquote> I haven't tested this as IMO a MR with a starters endurance rating is a rare thing in the game. At least, it is in fictional leagues where the game creates the MR. I would guess this might be the same as positional defensive practise - only applying to the main position (in this example MR). Easy thing to test though . __________________ FOBL Capital City Metropolitans CDL Minnesota Twins

12-09-2003, 11:15 AM	#15
William4192 All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 1,625	Did we ever get an answer on this? __________________ What is this about Rhode Island? It is neither Road or Island. Come check out the PBA. http://www.pioneerbaseballassociation.com Or email at pbacommish@pioneerbaseballassociation.com

12-09-2003, 11:51 AM	#16
Henry Hall of Fame Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 6,498	As Killebrew said, it's an easy thing to test. There are too many possibilities and questions as to what Spring Training can and can't do for anyone to write up a comprehensive answer - besides, it shouldn't be a mathematical equation - more like trial and error

12-09-2003, 03:12 PM	#17
Sagitta Major Leagues Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bouncing between Phillies and Red Sox territory Posts: 357	One thing I always do in Spring training is run the coaches recommendations - then eliminate any endurance training for my closer. I've had mediocre closers turn into beasts because I do away with all stamina trining in lieu of the other stats. __________________ I'm a lifelong Phillies fan - "Hey, at least we beat the Braves in '93."

12-09-2003, 04:57 PM	#18
LJR Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: May 2003 Location: CA Posts: 43	in my experience, only the stamina at the position he's listed at goes up a letter grade if you devote enough points to endurance....in other words, if he's listed as a SP, then his SP Endurance will go up from and E to a D while his reliever endurance remains a C. If he's listed as a MR, then his reliever endurance will go up from a C to a B while his starting endurance remains an E. Just make sure to toggle the player to the SP or MR/CL according to where u want endurance to increase. Eric Gagne has become quite the formidable SP now that I've been able to increase his SP endurance up to a D from an E....:-) __________________ Irvine Gang Green (BSA): West Division Champs: 2021, 25,26,28,29,31,35 NL Pennant - 2026, 2033 World Champs 2026, 2033

12-16-2003, 10:23 PM	#20
mrbill All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: LA, CA Posts: 982	Yep, I'm in the game league as LJR and there's rules keeping people from changing a SP to a MR/CL, mostly because of the contract issue and changing demands based on role. The loophole is bad enough so that you could change all your pitchers to the opposite role (SP->MR and MR->SP), take everyone's 5 points from endurance and use it elsewhere, and no pitcher will lose any endurance from their main role. This works even if a MR has no SP endurance, you can still make him an SP, take away the 5 points, and then you don't even see any loss in SP EN because its not even there. Oh well, all that endurance stuff will go away soon enough with just one rating for it.