Thought About Catchers Role In Game

[Klew1986]

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but I first off just finished reading the article in a recent Sports Illustrated about the Cardinals ability to develop good/great starting pitching. They touched on the base of Yadier Molina's ability to call a game and the pitchers won't question him one bit.

So this got me thinking, is the ability of a catcher calling a game built into ootp at all? Is it factored into the catchers "ability rating"? If it isn't that would be a really cool thing to possibly add.

[Déjà Bru]

Yes, supposedly this is the said "Catcher Ability" in the game. However, I am going to be very interested in further replies that substantiate or debunk the effect this has on pitchers in the game (an important distinction; I am not proposing debate about it IRL).

[Klew1986]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Yes, supposedly this is the said "Catcher Ability" in the game. However, I am going to be very interested in further replies that substantiate or debunk the effect this has on pitchers in the game (an important distinction; I am not proposing debate about it IRL).

Yeah. Just was throwing it out there as I was reading the article I was like "wonder if this is in OOTP somehow". Unhealthy or healthy for that matter, that I always think about OOTP

[Déjà Bru]

Well, here is what the manual says:

Catcher Ability Catcher Ability is a measure of a catcher's overall catching skill. Catcher Ability isn't truly a distinct rating. It is more of a composite number based on a combination of the player's defensive skills (arm, error, range) and his experience at the position.

Now, I have read here in the past that what this means is, a catcher with high Catcher Ability will improve the performances of his pitchers. I'm not sure if this is actually the case or whether people are assuming this because they see Catcher Arm and Catcher Defense rated separately in a catcher's profile. I'd like to see what people have to say about this.

[r0nster]

we ALL know the catcher is really the QB of the team. Their role is very important and we have seen where a few pitchers prefer one catcher over another.

[MizzouRah]

Nm

[Pacoheadley]

Markus has stated that Catcher Ability takes pitch framing into account to some extent, so there is that. Nothing crazy high or low though, he kept it with conservative estimates, as the research is fairly new.

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by r0nster

we ALL know the catcher is really the QB of the team.

Yes, I know exactly what you mean. In my current random debut league I have Joe Ferguson as my C/QB. And I live outside of Buffalo......

[Charlie Hough]

Originally Posted by r0nster

we ALL know the catcher is really the QB of the team. Their role is very important and we have seen where a few pitchers prefer one catcher over another.

Actually, Bill James completely disproved this with extensive statistical analysis some years ago. Pitchers do not really perform better or worse with a given catcher behind the plate. There is very little statistical evidence to support the widely accepted notion that certain catchers are better at handling a pitching staff, better at calling a game, etc.

This notion stems largely from player psychology and belief rather than real evidence.

[Raidergoo]

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

Actually, Bill James completely disproved this with extensive statistical analysis some years ago. Pitchers do not really perform better or worse with a given catcher behind the plate. There is very little statistical evidence to support the widely accepted notion that certain catchers are better at handling a pitching staff, better at calling a game, etc.

This notion stems largely from player psychology and belief rather than real evidence.

Studying the art of pitch framing by catchers such as Francisco Cervelli, Chris Stewart, Jose Molina, and others - Grantland

There is a movement to research and measure a catcher's ability. There might be something to it after all.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

This notion stems largely from player psychology and belief rather than real evidence.

Originally Posted by Raidergoo

Studying the art of pitch framing by catchers such as Francisco Cervelli, Chris Stewart, Jose Molina, and others - Grantland

There is a movement to research and measure a catcher's ability. There might be something to it after all.

Ah, the age-old struggle between superstition and science!

[beorn]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Ah, the age-old struggle between superstition and science!

Well, it is also a struggle between apparently scientific studies... Or, more to the point, a struggle between those who quickly accept the most recent study as gospel and those who take a wait and see attitude.

But I think in this case, we want to know whether Markus has programmed this into the game or not.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by beorn

But I think in this case, we want to know whether Markus has programmed this into the game or not.

Yes, come to think of it. That's what I said above. We're interested in what's in the game itself, not what's true IRL. Thanks.

[Charlie Hough]

Originally Posted by Raidergoo

Studying the art of pitch framing by catchers such as Francisco Cervelli, Chris Stewart, Jose Molina, and others - Grantland

There is a movement to research and measure a catcher's ability. There might be something to it after all.

This all hinges on one very pathetic factor: umpires are making mistakes, and if this starts influencing player personnel decisions and the related analysis starts to proliferate, you will see MLB crack down on this quickly. It will start enforcing more accountability on the umpires.

But the real solution is much simpler and is one that I adopted. I've been both a catcher and an umpire, so I have perhaps a different perspective on this than some.

As a catcher, I certainly framed pitches and took advantage of bad umpires. Sometimes it worked, but an excellent and well-trained umpire will not fall for it. In fact, it should be made clear by the umpire that framing pitches is not acceptable.

As an umpire, my rule was very simple: if you frame a pitch and it was borderline, then I'm not going to give you the benefit of the doubt. It's going to be called a ball because the fact of your framing of the pitch means that YOU believe it was likely a ball. Catchers learned very quickly that any attempt to cheat by framing pitches would only backfire.

I called a very clear strike zone and, before every game, I made it clear to both managers what that zone would be. I also made it clear that there was no need to frame pitches. I was explicit about where I would give some leeway and where I would call the strike zone tightly, based solely on the ball and plate. Managers were always very pleased with this approach because they knew what they were facing going in, and they found that the calls were consistent with this gameplan. Framing was of no consequence. But if a catcher was dumb enough to try to get one over on me, he was sorely disappointed every time.

[Raidergoo]

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

This all hinges on one very pathetic factor: umpires are making mistakes, and if this starts influencing player personnel decisions and the related analysis starts to proliferate, you will see MLB crack down on this quickly. It will start enforcing more accountability on the umpires.

I wouldn't call human fallibility pathetic. I would say that personnel decisions are being made based on this ability. The article says as much. I would enjoy watching MLB try to make umpires more accountable and to automate calling balls and strikes. Partly because I would like to see more accuracy, partly because in my heart, I'm a geek, and the technology used would be fascinating, and partly to watch the ensuing hijinks when powerful interests collide in the collective bargaining process.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Yes, come to think of it. That's what I said above. We're interested in what's in the game itself, not what's true IRL. Thanks.

Oh well.

Charlie, 'goo, I am enjoying your discussion but does anybody here have any solid evidence that Catcher Ability in OOTPB affects pitching staff performance one way or the other?

[Charlie Hough]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Oh well.

Charlie, 'goo, I am enjoying your discussion but does anybody here have any solid evidence that Catcher Ability in OOTPB affects pitching staff performance one way or the other?

Here's your answer: Per Markus, catcher ability affects pitching staff performance as of OOTP13. But this is only to the extent that framing pitches is part of the equation. The manual has never stated anything about catcher ability reflecting anything other than defensive ability, so I don't think "managing" the pitching staff or the other intangibles are part of the rating. In fact, I'd virtually guarantee that none of those are factors.

Hey guys,

recent research (i.e. here: Baseball Prospectus | Spinning Yarn: Removing the Mask Encore Presentation )has shown that catchers 'framing' has a much bigger impact on wether a pitch is called a ball or a strike than previously believed. The impact is pretty massive, with the best catcher at framing (Jose Molina) saving more than 30 runs over a full season, which equals about 3 wins per year. The worst catchers (i.e. Ryan Doumit) cost their teams more than 2 wins per year!

Anyway, this is now properly modeled in OOTP 13. The game uses the "catcher ability" rating to determine framing skills and adjusts the number of simulated balls / strikes / BBs / Ks accordingly. Also, the 2012 major league roster set has catchers rated properly as well. And the player evaluation AI understands this now, too.

Just one of the many little things that make OOTP 13 the best version we've ever produced.

Cheers,
Markus

PS: Thanks to Bulldog55 of the beta team for pointing this out and suggesting the change.

[ihatenames]

From Markus himself: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ml#post3284613

Hey guys,

recent research (i.e. here: Baseball Prospectus | Spinning Yarn: Removing the Mask Encore Presentation )has shown that catchers 'framing' has a much bigger impact on wether a pitch is called a ball or a strike than previously believed. The impact is pretty massive, with the best catcher at framing (Jose Molina) saving more than 30 runs over a full season, which equals about 3 wins per year. The worst catchers (i.e. Ryan Doumit) cost their teams more than 2 wins per year!

Anyway, this is now properly modeled in OOTP 13. The game uses the "catcher ability" rating to determine framing skills and adjusts the number of simulated balls / strikes / BBs / Ks accordingly. Also, the 2012 major league roster set has catchers rated properly as well. And the player evaluation AI understands this now, too.

Just one of the many little things that make OOTP 13 the best version we've ever produced.

Cheers,
Markus

PS: Thanks to Bulldog55 of the beta team for pointing this out and suggesting the change.

EDIT: Sorry, Charlie I didnt' see you post it before me. I guess I took me too long to complete the message

[Raidergoo]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Charlie, 'goo, I am enjoying your discussion but does anybody here have any solid evidence that Catcher Ability in OOTPB affects pitching staff performance one way or the other?

Charlie's one of the good guys .

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

Here's your answer: Per Markus, catcher ability affects pitching staff performance as of OOTP13. But this is only to the extent that framing pitches is part of the equation. The manual has never stated anything about catcher ability reflecting anything other than defensive ability, so I don't think "managing" the pitching staff or the other intangibles are part of the rating. In fact, I'd virtually guarantee that none of those are factors.

Originally Posted by ihatenames

From Markus himself: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ml#post3284613

Thank you both. So, can we assume that before OOTP13, Catcher Ability meant . . . nothing?

Originally Posted by Raidergoo

Charlie's one of the good guys

So are you.