using a MR as a starter, common?

[goalieump413]

So heading into the postseason (offline/normal settings), Eric Wedge decided to put Charlie Furbush, a MR, to be a starter in my 5-man rotation, leaving Taijuan Walker, one of my normal starters, as a reliever.

Furbush has 3 plus pitches, but his stamina is shown as 5, while Walker's 3 plus pitches and 16 stamina somehow disqualified him from remaining in the rotation. Walker had won 7 out of 8 of his starting outings (7 straight) before being demoted to the bullpen. No injuries, or any other notable weird stuff in his 2015 game log.

As for Furbush, just like Walker, he just suddenly becomes a starter (with a poor stamina of 5!) and throws around 4-5 innings per start for the rest of the season, replacing Walker.

The screenshot below shows the basics, noting that both Furbush and Walker have been similarly successful during the season, my main concern is that although Walker's job is that of a starter, and Furbush's is that of a reliever, what in this game prompted the AI to believe that a reliever should be suddenly dropped into the rotation? I have tried to manually reset the rotation, but since I have my game set to have the AI set lineups, no change I make ever takes effect.

This brings up the deeper question: What really qualifies a pitcher to become a starter? In previous threads, I've learned that a starter needs to have 3 strong pitches, but doesn't stamina count for something? Is there a formulaic requirement not visible that the AI is relying on?

I doubt this is any sort of glitch in the programming, but it sure looks strange to send out a reliever near the end of a playoff intense season to start a bunch of important games.

Any thoughts?

[The Game]

I use a 1-10 scale and I have seen success with MR with 3 pitches and a Stamina of 3. I have RA Dickey on my team and last year he went 11-10 4.54 as my #4 SP (4 man rotation he got skipped 12 times). So far into my 2005 season a team i just played against is using their CL from last year (2-3 2.34 18 SV) as their #4 so far decent #'s 2-1 3.45 avg 96 pitches thru 3 starts. Pitcher stamina set to Normal.

[TribeFanInNC]

The game is basing the decision on the ratings of the players and their performance. Furbush is rated higher and is "hot", so I assume his recent performance is better. I think using Furbush is fine.

The only real troubling thing is that the AI doesn't switch their position. The problem with using a categorizing MR as a starter is that the pitch count gets limited to more like 60-70. Also, using an SP in relief causes them to rest slower (i.e. like a starter). Can you change their positioning manually?

[goalieump413]

Rest slower? That's troubling!

Are you referring to the recovery time? I'd assume a pitcher with a 5 stamina would be able to throw fewer pitches per outing, but keep the recovery time the same. Maybe I'm wrong, which further confuses me.

If the same pitcher throws too many pitches, doesn't he risk injury? Why isn't the AI taking that into account?

From a global perspective, I'm questioning whether there's something buried in the game code that places a higher value on one or more ratings and elects that player more worthy of being a starting pitcher. There are a lot of reasons it bothers me.

1. risk of injury of over-using a MR as a starter
2. under-using a starter, limiting his growth
3. creating a financial imbalance, where the starter still gets paid starter money, but due to the MR getting more time, his salary demands (and arbitration value) skyrocket
4. the need for an extra MR on the active roster, in case the MR starter goes down with an injury due to over-work
5. any future crazy ideas from my manager (if this is just the first)

So, I'd love to see what logic actually makes a starter a starter. In the real game, there are many differences between starters and bullpen pitchers (salary, routine). It's not that I'm questioning the effectiveness of Furbush's new found role as a starter. He did okay. But since I don't control lineups, the AI's "judgement" is what I'm questioning.

[byzeil]

Originally Posted by TribeFanInNC

The game is basing the decision on the ratings of the players and their performance. Furbush is rated higher and is "hot", so I assume his recent performance is better. I think using Furbush is fine.

The only real troubling thing is that the AI doesn't switch their position. The problem with using a categorizing MR as a starter is that the pitch count gets limited to more like 60-70. Also, using an SP in relief causes them to rest slower (i.e. like a starter). Can you change their positioning manually?

My understanding is that the position you see on the roster does not affect how they play or the engine treats them it is how they are actually used that matters. If a player is used as a SP or MR the game engine treats him as such regarding stamina/recovery & his ratings, and that having him set to either SP or MR is really only cosmetic.

[TribeFanInNC]

Points 1 and 4 are not really an issue; if anything, Furbush is probably being underused (i.e. not getting to 90+ pitches). Point 2 is valid and definite concern. I suppose 3 could be a concern, though not likely in this case as Walker is 23 and probably making the minimum.

With Point 5, you just have to assume the AI is mostly working in the same way for all the teams. Maybe the personnel personality traits have a little effect, but mostly all the teams should have the same "problems".

I like pretend there is something going on in these scenarios. Maybe Walker has a little Carlos Zambrano loco side and is being sent a message. With Eric Wedge, my guess is that Walker is not gritty enough.

(I always thought Wedge allotted playing time based on how gritty the player was rather than their actual talent. Hence, Casey Blake got like 5000 ABs. And Jamey Carroll played at all. Personal joke I guess....)

[goalieump413]

I don't doubt that Wedge likes a good, gritty performer, but how can that be modeled in this game? I did look at Wedge's tendencies and he does prefer veterans, but...

BTW, if I navigate to strategy/player strategy/force start/use at position, and set Walker's setting to "starting pitcher", will it override Wedge's desire to keep him a reliever? I assume so, but on a day-to-day basis, will the AI override my setting?

[bwburke94]

Force starting indeed works, but in older versions of OOTP force-started SP would automatically get the #1 spot in the rotation. It's better to force the relievers into a MR role.

[Padreman]

I did ones for an entire season the reason i did because my no. 5 starter was awful only 1 star and I had a MR with 5 stars so I just plugged him in and he did win me 14 games but got tired quickly

[beorn]

Originally Posted by goalieump413

There are a lot of reasons it bothers me.

1. risk of injury of over-using a MR as a starter
2. under-using a starter, limiting his growth
3. creating a financial imbalance, where the starter still gets paid starter money, but due to the MR getting more time, his salary demands (and arbitration value) skyrocket
4. the need for an extra MR on the active roster, in case the MR starter goes down with an injury due to over-work
5. any future crazy ideas from my manager (if this is just the first)

Originally Posted by TribeFanInNC

Point 2 is valid and definite concern.
[/SIZE]

Excuse my straying from the main point of the thread, but I had always thought that under-using a player at the major league level had no effect on development at all. Under player development in the manual it says "Minor league players who get little playing time might not develop as quickly as others. However, major league players and players on a reserve roster develop normally even without playing time."

Anyone know for sure whether this has changed since this part of the manual was written? Does major league usage impact development?

[Ripamaru]

I do not really like the "stamina" rating to begin with....

I have had discussions with major league scouts in the past (had a friend in the Oakland front office) and when I brought up the commonly held idea that starters have more stamina than relievers one laughed.

He said that there is no such difference. A starter is a starter because he has more effective pitches and can make better adjustments the 2nd, 3rd time through the order. A reliever may have a couple good pitches but if they were to see the same batter 2/3 times in an outing the batters would adjust and start to pound them.

Every outing is different for a pitcher so seeing them on a different day wouldn't help a batter as much but seeing them multiple times in one day gives hitters an advantage, the good pitchers can change up the speeds and locations and vary more pitches, thus are starters.

I feel that this should be incorporated a bit more into the game and "stamina" should be done away with. It should be replaced with a skill that is essentially a pitchers ability to adjust his strategy in game, not sure what to call it or how the programming would have to be changed but it would be more true to the game.

[beorn]

Originally Posted by Ripamaru

I do not really like the "stamina" rating to begin with....

I have had discussions with major league scouts in the past (had a friend in the Oakland front office) and when I brought up the commonly held idea that starters have more stamina than relievers one laughed.

He said that there is no such difference. A starter is a starter because he has more effective pitches and can make better adjustments the 2nd, 3rd time through the order. A reliever may have a couple good pitches but if they were to see the same batter 2/3 times in an outing the batters would adjust and start to pound them.

Every outing is different for a pitcher so seeing them on a different day wouldn't help a batter as much but seeing them multiple times in one day gives hitters an advantage, the good pitchers can change up the speeds and locations and vary more pitches, thus are starters.

I feel that this should be incorporated a bit more into the game and "stamina" should be done away with. It should be replaced with a skill that is essentially a pitchers ability to adjust his strategy in game, not sure what to call it or how the programming would have to be changed but it would be more true to the game.

I think that this is already incorporated into the game, although I could not say if it is a strong enough factor.

However, if you create a test league and give yourself commish powers, try playing around with the pitches. A pitcher with more pitches will maintain his stuff rating in the starter's role better than a pitcher with fewer pitches.

As to stamina, I'm not sure. Notice that your contact did not seem to say there is no such thing as stamina. He said that stamina is not really the difference between a starter and a reliever.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by byzeil

My understanding is that the position you see on the roster does not affect how they play or the engine treats them it is how they are actually used that matters. If a player is used as a SP or MR the game engine treats him as such regarding stamina/recovery & his ratings, and that having him set to either SP or MR is really only cosmetic.

Hmm... it's most definitely not cosmetic when I play. If I use a MR as a starter without changing his role he will be lucky to go past 60 pitches no matter what his stamina. If I use him as a SP I can get 80-90-100-115 pitches depending on stamina.

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by RchW

Hmm... it's most definitely not cosmetic when I play. If I use a MR as a starter without changing his role he will be lucky to go past 60 pitches no matter what his stamina. If I use him as a SP I can get 80-90-100-115 pitches depending on stamina.

Yeah, I just noticed this in my game. Gave my long relief man a couple spot starts over my underperforming #5 guy. Despite a 6 Stamina rating (2-8 scale), he's never lasted past 60 pitches, while one of my regular SPs has a 5 Stamina and consistently reaches 90 pitches.

Next time I start the guy, I'll switch his role to a SP and see if it makes a difference.

[Ripamaru]

Originally Posted by beorn

I think that this is already incorporated into the game, although I could not say if it is a strong enough factor.

However, if you create a test league and give yourself commish powers, try playing around with the pitches. A pitcher with more pitches will maintain his stuff rating in the starter's role better than a pitcher with fewer pitches.

As to stamina, I'm not sure. Notice that your contact did not seem to say there is no such thing as stamina. He said that stamina is not really the difference between a starter and a reliever.

How good of shape a player is in and his pitching style effect his stamina but what he said was that pretty much any pro pitcher could throw 6-7 innings without running out of gas, the difference between pitchers stamina is so small as to be insignificant. Scouts don't use it in evaluating pitchers.

If the scouts don't pay any attention to it then why should we? Why should it be in the game?

I do see that having more pitches helps in OOTP, but it isn't just having more pitches, it is also varying speed and location within those pitches and throw them consistently for strikes.

The only real difference between starter and reliever in OOTP most of the time is stamina and number of pitches. The second part they have right, but I see A LOT relievers in OOTP that have 3+ pitches with great stuff/control and only lack stamina, those pitchers start in real life.

Also control is used a central ability and not tied to individual pitches, this is not how it really is. Some pitchers have great control with all their pitches but very few. The ability to hit the right spot consistently varies between pitches.

Most relievers can control one or two pitches consistently and other pitches are hit and miss. Starters can generally control more pitches which allows them to keep hitters off balance on the 2nd/3rd/4th time through the order.

There needs to at least be a stuff/movement/control rating for each pitch. The rating of the pitches now seems to be only tied to stuff. One rating for a pitch doesn't accurately portray the reality of it. A pitcher may have amazing velocity or wicked movement on a pitch but not be able to control its location consistently. This is extremely common with relievers secondary pitches. That is part of why they go to the bullpen.

You see players in real life who struggle in the rotation and end up in the bullpen. They didn't suddenly not have the stamina to start, they couldn't pitch well enough to leave them out for 5+ innings but may be able to go one time through the order.


The lone exception in modern days is the closer, who a lot of times could start., but teams decide they have more value as a closer. I think this is folly myself as I don't believe in the one inning closer as a good real life strategy but that is beside the point.


I would do away with the stamina rating, add a rating for the ability to make adjustments and have Stuff/Movement/Control for each pitch.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

Yeah, I just noticed this in my game. Gave my long relief man a couple spot starts over my underperforming #5 guy. Despite a 6 Stamina rating (2-8 scale), he's never lasted past 60 pitches, while one of my regular SPs has a 5 Stamina and consistently reaches 90 pitches.

Next time I start the guy, I'll switch his role to a SP and see if it makes a difference.

Also note that some pitchers get a stuff boost when they are switched to MR. Using the correct role brings that back in line.

[TribeFanInNC]

Originally Posted by beorn

Excuse my straying from the main point of the thread, but I had always thought that under-using a player at the major league level had no effect on development at all. Under player development in the manual it says "Minor league players who get little playing time might not develop as quickly as others. However, major league players and players on a reserve roster develop normally even without playing time."

Anyone know for sure whether this has changed since this part of the manual was written? Does major league usage impact development?

Hmmm....good question. I forgot about that little detail. I always remember about reserve rosters, but not the other part. I may indeed be wrong then.

[byzeil]

Originally Posted by RchW

Also note that some pitchers get a stuff boost when they are switched to MR. Using the correct role brings that back in line.

I may be wrong and have been unable to track down where I saw it. When you change a pitcher between MR and SP stuff may show different on the display. My understanding, from the source I cannot now find, is that the game engine treats a pitcher as a SP when he starts and a MR when he pitches in relief and what you have him set to doesn't matter. Again, I could be mistaken. I'm trying to locate the initial source and I will do some testing. I'm going to make 6 copies of a player and put them in my rotation with 2 as SP, 2 as MR and 2 as CL and then sim a season then look at the results.

[Gil Thorp]

Originally Posted by Ripamaru

I would do away with the stamina rating, add a rating for the ability to make adjustments and have Stuff/Movement/Control for each pitch.

I see too in the suggestions forum a proposal for a composure rating. My memory might be bad, but I think the attributes that players are rated on hasn't changed since I first started playing and I'm sure plenty of improvements on how these ratings interact with the game engine have been implemented over the years. I get real nervous when I see calls to change these.

[mgoetze]

Some model which reflected the need to "stretch pitchers out" as in real life would also make the game more interesting.