End of Season Starting Pitcher Usage

[thehef]

I am almost positive that there was some discussion – which Markus may have weighed in on – where this subject was discussed, specifically in relation to improvements made (or not made) from v12 to v13 to v14. However, a semi-exhaustive search for that thread has come up empty.

In v12, the AI will use a team’s top starters if it’s their turn, even if it’s the final weekend of the regular season and the team has clinched, and thus it's possible that a playoff team's top two starters would be needlessly unavailable for the openings games of the postseason. Perhaps there is logic to use other starters, if available, but I have not seen that. And perhaps that is because other starters are not available/rested, but that is not realistic, as I’d think 99% of the time a manager would find some minor-league SP or a string of relievers to use before wasting a Koufax, Seaver, Hershiser, or Schilling in a meaningless game.

If someone can point me towards that thread and/or address the status of this issue as it relates to 14, it would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[Bluenoser]

You now have the option to "bench" a player for a set number of days.

It's under strategy, individual player strategy.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

You now have the option to "bench" a player for a set number of days.

It's under strategy, individual player strategy.

Do AI controlled teams use it though?

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

You now have the option to "bench" a player for a set number of days.

It's under strategy, individual player strategy.

Thanks

So if I'm understanding, that would certainly make it easier for the human manager. However, this wouldn't apply to AI-controlled teams. They could still needlessly burn out starter pitchers?

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

You now have the option to "bench" a player for a set number of days.

It's under strategy, individual player strategy.

You've had that option since 13 at least (don't remember if it was in 12), and besides, that doesn't stop AI-controlled teams from wasting THEIR pitchers.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm3

You've had that option since 13 at least (don't remember if it was in 12), and besides, that doesn't stop AI-controlled teams from wasting THEIR pitchers.

1. Doesn't matter when it was available, the point is that OP knows it's available.

2. The AI uses it.

[Fyrestorm3]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

2. The AI uses it.

Really? I'm not arguing with you, but I haven't seen that.

[Eugene Church]

Originally Posted by thehef

I am almost positive that there was some discussion – which Markus may have weighed in on – where this subject was discussed, specifically in relation to improvements made (or not made) from v12 to v13 to v14. However, a semi-exhaustive search for that thread has come up empty.

In v12, the AI will use a team’s top starters if it’s their turn, even if it’s the final weekend of the regular season and the team has clinched, and thus it's possible that a playoff team's top two starters would be needlessly unavailable for the openings games of the postseason. Perhaps there is logic to use other starters, if available, but I have not seen that. And perhaps that is because other starters are not available/rested, but that is not realistic, as I’d think 99% of the time a manager would find some minor-league SP or a string of relievers to use before wasting a Koufax, Seaver, Hershiser, or Schilling in a meaningless game.

If someone can point me towards that thread and/or address the status of this issue as it relates to 14, it would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

I don't know if this will help you, but you can delay your playoffs four days by making changes in the schedule and all your pitchers will be rested and the AI should pick the best ones for the playoffs.

Another related problem is the AI not playing the best players in the playoffs. I have seen cases where many stars are subbed in the postseason because the AI has to follow a strict substitution routine... it would never happen in the real world... the regulars are simply not going to sit out playoff games. A team is going to play its best players and use its best pitchers.

My work-around is to make all the lineups for all the teams in postseason games.

They are other areas where the AI doesn't make smart moves... I have seen it pinch hit with a far worse hitter just because the pitcher is a lefty and the hitter is a lefty, even when the hitter hits lefties better than righties... I have seen the game pinch hit for Ty Cobb because he had to face a left-hander in the late inning... his sub would be a right-handed batter, but a .250 career hitter.

The only work-around for the last problem is to play out your games and make your own substitutions.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

2. The AI uses it.

I can say with certainty that in my league it does not bench/rest pitchers at seasons end. I actually looked before my most recent playoffs and only one of the other 7 teams in my league playoffs had a rested 1/2 starter. There were no close races, even the wildcards.

I'd like to be wrong on this because it is just another way the human team gets a big advantage.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Eugene Church

I don't know if this will help you, but you can delay your playoffs four days by making changes in the schedule and all your pitchers will be rested and the AI should pick the best ones for the playoffs.

...

My work-around is to make all the lineups for all the teams in postseason games.

The problem with delaying the playoffs so all pitchers are fully rested is then you lose the realistic scenario where a team that had to fight down to the last day (or even play a one-game tiebreaker or make-up game) has the disadvantage of it's ace(s) being necessarily unavailable due to fatigue.

So, yeah, I go with your work-around for more-intelligent playoff lineups & rotations. And to workaround the end-of-season pitching rotation issue - for all teams in contention going down to the final weekend - I set their rotation. And for all teams that have clinched going into the final weekend, I make sure their top two starters do not start... But it would be nice if the AI could figure this out.

Seems like some basic code - while not perfect - would certainly be an improvement. Something like:

If it's the last or second-to-last day of the season and playoff berth has been clinched, do NOT start #1 or #2 pitcher.

Several more lines of code could be included to account for situations where - for example - if a playoff berth has been clinched but playoff seeding/HFA has not been determined, the AI would burn one of the top two pitchers on the last weekend, but not both.

Perfect? No. A serious improvement over winning the division by 15 games but having your top two starters unavailable for the first two games of the playoffs because they each threw 120 pitches on the final weekend of the regular season? I'd have to say yes.

[Nefaro]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

You now have the option to "bench" a player for a set number of days.

It's under strategy, individual player strategy.

The few times I've used that, the player in question still plays the next game. It hasn't taken effect until after the next game.

[BusterKing]

Originally Posted by Eugene Church

I don't know if this will help you, but you can delay your playoffs four days by making changes in the schedule and all your pitchers will be rested and the AI should pick the best ones for the playoffs.

Another option without having to fool around with the schedule:

GAME SETUP > LEAGUE SETUP > FUNCTIONS > Reset Fatigue of all Players

Just before playoff starts.


Yes, OOTP needs some work for the playoff settings if at all possible. After 162 games, it seems rather important that it gets that right imo.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by RchW

I can say with certainty that in my league it does not bench/rest pitchers at seasons end. I actually looked before my most recent playoffs and only one of the other 7 teams in my league playoffs had a rested 1/2 starter. There were no close races, even the wildcards.

I'd like to be wrong on this because it is just another way the human team gets a big advantage.

You could be correct. I haven't physically gone in and checked each teams rotation, but I have noticed that when play-off time rolls around all AI teams have their ace rested and ready to go in game one.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Eugene Church

They are other areas where the AI doesn't make smart moves... I have seen it pinch hit with a far worse hitter just because the pitcher is a lefty and the hitter is a lefty, even when the hitter hits lefties better than righties... I have seen the game pinch hit for Ty Cobb because he had to face a left-hander in the late inning... his sub would be a right-handed batter, but a .250 career hitter.
The only work-around for the last problem is to play out your games and make your own substitutions.

That does seem pretty silly. I can't speak to v13 or v14 yet, but in v12, the decision on whether to pinch-hit or not for the pitcher seem questionable... And, just the other day I saw in a World Series game, top of the ninth and trailing by a two runs, John Roseboro leads off with a hit down the line and tries to stretch it from a double to a triple and gets thrown out. Sure, players do dumb things. But some of these baserunning decisions - and their frequency - seem like real headscratchers. Hopefully this has been improved a bit in v14.

Originally Posted by BusterKing

Yes, OOTP needs some work for the playoff settings if at all possible. After 162 games, it seems rather important that it gets that right imo.

Absolutely. And if OOTP could implement some realistic playoff scheduling, that would add the realism by introducing the challenges & benefits of days off, extra rest days, etc.

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by thehef

That does seem pretty silly. I can't speak to v13 or v14 yet, but in v12, the decision on whether to pinch-hit or not for the pitcher seem questionable... And, just the other day I saw in a World Series game, top of the ninth and trailing by a two runs, John Roseboro leads off with a hit down the line and tries to stretch it from a double to a triple and gets thrown out. Sure, players do dumb things. But some of these baserunning decisions - and their frequency - seem like real headscratchers. Hopefully this has been improved a bit in v14.


Absolutely. And if OOTP could implement some realistic playoff scheduling, that would add the realism by introducing the challenges & benefits of days off, extra rest days, etc.

I sometimes hate MLB playoff scheduling, with the massive off-days, and some series having more days off than others. But on the other hand, the rigidity of OOTP is annoying too. Obviously in real life, you don't have all 4 series start on the first day, and all have a day off at the same time.

I would certainly like a setting to ease my starters down the stretch. Generally once September hits, I pay a lot closer attention to my pitching staff, adjust in and out players as needed. And usually the last weekend, I just fully remove my top 1-2 starters from the starting staff and force someone else to start. But it would be nice to do that automatically.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by UWHabs

I sometimes hate MLB playoff scheduling, with the massive off-days, and some series having more days off than others.

Agree. However, it's worth noting that the ridiculousness of MLB playoff scheduling is a semi-recent development, largely restricted to the expanded playoffs era and due to TV considerations. World Series (and then LCS) scheduling prior to the expanded playoffs was pretty sensible, fairly predictable even as it evolved over time.

Originally Posted by UWHabs

But on the other hand, the rigidity of OOTP is annoying too. Obviously in real life, you don't have all 4 series start on the first day, and all have a day off at the same time.

Yes. I find it odd that we want so much of OOTP to be as realistic as possible, but when it comes down to the most important time of the season, major deviations from reality have to either be tolerated or require significant workarounds.

Originally Posted by UWHabs

I would certainly like a setting to ease my starters down the stretch. Generally once September hits, I pay a lot closer attention to my pitching staff, adjust in and out players as needed. And usually the last weekend, I just fully remove my top 1-2 starters from the starting staff and force someone else to start. But it would be nice to do that automatically.

Right. And if you intelligently manage your staff (and other players down the stretch), you are at an advantage over AI teams that do not - unless of course you do that, too - which can be somewhat of a PITA - for computer-controlled teams.

[Gil Thorp]

Originally Posted by thehef

However, it's worth noting that the ridiculousness of MLB playoff scheduling is a semi-recent development, largely restricted to the expanded playoffs era and due to TV considerations.

I remember as a kid weekday World Series games still being played during the day and the cool teachers that let us listen to the games on the radio.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by thehef

Absolutely. And if OOTP could implement some realistic playoff scheduling, that would add the realism by introducing the challenges & benefits of days off, extra rest days, etc.

As an option I'm all for it. I'd never use it. One of the reasons I love playing OOTP is to avoid the managing of the playoff schedule to favor the Yankees or the "flavor" team that year. Fixing the playoff schedule as it is done now is not much different than a gambler fixing the WS. Let the teams use all the players on their roster.