Question about opposing team's bullpen- in game

njherdfan · 05-13-2013, 10:46 AM

I was managing a game today, and I was trying to set up the ideal lefty/righty situation. The computer had a lefty pitching, so I went with a right handed pinch hitter, but first I looked on their "substitutions" page and it didn't say they had anyone warming up in their pen. Once I subbed in my righty PH, they put a righty pitcher in. My question is this: can I see if the other team is warming someone up in their pen, or should I just assume they put the pitcher in cold once I put in a righty hitter.

BusterKing · 05-13-2013, 10:56 AM

The AI never uses warm up and their pitcher come in the game NOT cold like the human controlled team does if you have the warm up rule activated. That's the reason many are not using the warm up rule for ootp.

It is actually amazing that we are on the 14th. version of this game and an important feature like this one in baseball is totally lacking in this gaming simulation. Many complained about it every year and it is always being ignored. We are always given the excuse that is it too complicated to be programmed properly.

dkgo · 05-13-2013, 11:15 AM

have you ever thought that instead of that being an excuse, it's the truth? or does your expertise in programming tell you otherwise and you know exactly how to code it?

Cryomaniac · 05-13-2013, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkgo

have you ever thought that instead of that being an excuse, it's the truth? or does your expertise in programming tell you otherwise and you know exactly how to code it?

I do have some programming experience, and I think it could easily be true. For one thing it's more variables to track if nothing else.

BusterKing · 05-13-2013, 11:39 AM

I'm not saying that it isn't the truth, I am saying that's what we are being told. I never implied that it was a lie and I have no idea how you came up with that assumption.

Riverdome · 05-13-2013, 11:46 AM

Not speaking for anyone else but I would be shocked if this feature wasn't attempted in a sandbox and for whatever reason failed to work properly. Not a priority for me but I'll be happy when it is properly implemented. Until then certainly something I can live without.

BIG17EASY · 05-13-2013, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BusterKing

It is actually amazing that we are on the 14th. version of this game and an important feature like this one in baseball is totally lacking in this gaming simulation. Many complained about it every year and it is always being ignored. We are always given the excuse that is it too complicated to be programmed properly.

It's not amazing at all. The game is missing other features that could be considered important (split-squad games in spring training, proper promotion/demotion rules, roster age limits), so it's not like this is the only thing that doesn't work properly. And it's unfair to call it an excuse (which implies we aren't being given the full story) unless you have evidence that it can be coded into the game easily.

I'm not a fanboy, but the over-exaggerated criticism of the game and Markus' dev crew are getting out of hand lately.

dkgo · 05-13-2013, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BusterKing

I'm not saying that it isn't the truth, I am saying that's what we are being told. I never implied that it was a lie and I have no idea how you came up with that assumption.

Calling it an "excuse" implies that they could do it but are feeding us some bs why they won't

RchW · 05-13-2013, 12:43 PM

Do we really need another feature that the AI might screw up in order to make it easier for human players to win. I have no problem accepting that every AI manager has the correct relief pitcher properly warmed up every game. The reality is that such an issue may occur 3-5 times a season IRL. It doesn't affect realism IMO.

The following issues do affect realism.

The AI still makes way too many curious strategy decisions late in game that directly affect the outcome.

Let's fix bunting with a non-pitcher and a runner on 2B and 1 out first.

Let's fix the automatic int BB to a weak hitter when you steal 2B late in the game next.

Let's fix allowing a journeyman SP to throw 133 pitches into the 8th inning when 5 relief pitchers with way better ratings sit unused.

Let's fix the AI 3 SP rule in the playoffs which has each AI team throwing out an 88%-92% rested SP vs my 100% rested SP late in series. It's often the same journeyman who threw 133 pitches 3 days ago while one or two serviceable SP sit in the bullpen not pitching an inning.

All of these basic errors make it too easy to win.

OK rant over.

David Watts · 05-13-2013, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

Do we really need another feature that the AI might screw up in order to make it easier for human players to win. I have no problem accepting that every AI manager has the correct relief pitcher properly warmed up every game. The reality is that such an issue may occur 3-5 times a season IRL. It doesn't affect realism IMO.

The following issues do affect realism.

The AI still makes way too many curious strategy decisions late in game that directly affect the outcome.

Let's fix bunting with a non-pitcher and a runner on 2B and 1 out first.

Let's fix the automatic int BB to a weak hitter when you steal 2B late in the game next.

Let's fix allowing a journeyman SP to throw 133 pitches into the 8th inning when 5 relief pitchers with way better ratings sit unused.

Let's fix the AI 3 SP rule in the playoffs which has each AI team throwing out an 88%-92% rested SP vs my 100% rested SP late in series. It's often the same journeyman who threw 133 pitches 3 days ago while one or two serviceable SP sit in the bullpen not pitching an inning.

All of these basic errors make it too easy to win.

OK rant over.

Can we please get it so the AI takes age into consideration while drafting in a random debut league. Tired of seeing the AI waste #1 picks on guys in or approaching their 40's.

megamanmatt · 05-13-2013, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BusterKing

I never implied that it was a lie and I have no idea how you came up with that assumption.

*snip*

RchW · 05-14-2013, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Watts

Can we please get it so the AI takes age into consideration while drafting in a random debut league. Tired of seeing the AI waste #1 picks on guys in or approaching their 40's.

That goes to the core of the game. The AI evaluation must consider age relative to ratings and stats. IRL we can see teams are now willing to pay for projected performance from 23-32 vs overpaying for declining performance from 27 on. If I'm a pending FA approaching 30 now, the pot of gold is shrinking fast!

oldtimey · 05-14-2013, 10:25 AM

The scenario that the OP described is why I did not order the current game and will not consider this game in any future editions until this is fixed. It is a gamebreaker for me. If I can't look up and see my opponent's bullpen activity, or if I can't be notified by play-by-play who is warming up when they get up, it sucks the realism and drama right out of the game. The relief pitcher cannot appear from nowhere and into a crucial spot in a baseball game. That is unnacceptable to me and is why I am enjoying an alternative for my baseball simming/playing jones when I have the time. I have time in the summer for one day-to-day sim of MLB, and because of the above, OOTP 14 ain't it.

The Wolf · 05-14-2013, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkgo

have you ever thought that instead of that being an excuse, it's the truth? or does your expertise in programming tell you otherwise and you know exactly how to code it?

Other games have done it. It really can't be that hard.

The Wolf · 05-14-2013, 10:41 AM

From the 12 forum:

Quote:

Originally Posted by highandoutside

First, let me say how happy I am with OOTP 12. I'm a solo, fictional, pitch-by-pitch user. The GM AI seems a bit more sophisticated, the in-game crowd sounds are 100% better and the new features are pretty neat. There are still a few wonky managerial tactical decisions that need to be dealt with, but we've talked about them on this board a thousand times. Anyways, overall a nice little upgrade and I'm looking forward to Lucky 13.

Now, about warming up relievers. I think this is an important feature for us managerial types. I don't care if the CPU doesn't have to do it, because I want nothing getting in the way of the AI making good decisions. But, for us humans, it adds an important layer of realism and challenge to the experience.

I play Diamond Mind Baseball a lot, as well as OOTP. I think DMB has an almost perfect system for warming up pitchers, and I think OOTP should think about incorporating some of them. First, in DMB relief pitchers can only be warmed up a certain number of times in a ballgame. If you go over that threshold, I think it is four, but I feel it should be three, then that pitcher is automatically tired when he enters the game. Second, relief pitchers automatically sit down after of warming up for a certain period of time, thus preventing the warming up of a pitcher for the whole game. I think they sit down after that half inning when you warm them up when you are on defense, and they stay up for a full inning when you start warming them on offense. Finally, a reliever is automatically WARM if he is warmed up between inning breaks and, in general warms up much more quickly than in OOTP. In my opinion, it takes far too longer for a reliever to warm up in OOTP.

Anyways, I think this feature is important and could be improved with a few tweaks. Maybe some of you feel the same.

oldtimey · 05-14-2013, 09:21 PM

Is there an official response from the development team on this issue? I personally have jumped into threads and have started threads about this since OOTP 12, and I don't remember ever reading a response from the folks who make this game happen. I know I am a nooby with a "small sample size" of OOTP experience and I represent just one lonely decedent who will not spend another dime on this product until this major part of the MLB experience is fixed. I just would like to know if I should stop wishing, hoping, praying. All you have to tell me is you can't/won't/don't feel the need/ to fix this and I'm done. Otherwise, you have a wonderful product and all success to you.

olivertheorem · 05-14-2013, 09:59 PM

I don't know the exact thread, but I'm pretty sure Markus has explicitly said that it's a PITA to get coded well. I know Wolf commented that other games have done it, which is true. I saw many examples cited in another thread on the subject. But, it was also commented that those games practically always had problems with implementation. It is one thing to just have it in the game. It is quite another to have it in a realistic way.

Given other widely known roster quirks of the OOTP AI as it currently exists, I find it highly doubtful that said AI could use a bullpen even 10% as well as a human if it had to warm them up too. This is not due to any fault of Markus' or any lack in his skill as a programmer. It is due to the exteme difficulty in getting a computer to think like a human, especially for a single programmer with a small budget.

The Wolf · 05-14-2013, 10:56 PM

Diamond Mind was also programmed under similar constraints.

oldtimey · 05-15-2013, 11:15 AM

I am not a coder, or a programmer, but I do have experience writing script and producing music for PC games, mostly sports, before the days of Windows, that were DOS-based. I remember being asked to do scripts that were home-team related, generic in scope, some not so verbose, others very verbose, that the player could chose which style from a menu. I also remember one programmer telling me that, as the title we were working on was progressing to a graphics version of a former text-based sim, He felt that the future of computer/video sports would lead to pretty pictures (graphics), but dumb AI. In his opinion, the more memory the sim demanded for graphics, the more memory it would take away from the sim's AI. So, with this sim, if you chose on the menu that you wanted the most verbose play descriptions and you wanted to play vs cpu, or cpu vs cpu, the graphics would be limited during your game to compensate. This was a long time ago. This particular game never made it past prototype because the developers were paying a lot to convert from text-based to what they called a graphics-enhanced version. The text-based version was flawless in it's execution of dugout strategy, play-by-play relevance and engaging day-to day realism, but all from a monochrome monitor with a simple baseball diamond with names where the players would be in position. This was also done by the dice-roll method, which we today call one-pitch mode. I remember how frustrating is was watching other companies with much bigger budgets releasing games with all the glitz of the graphics of the day (VGA), only to have AI always be shortchanged in the process. The head of the company I worked for wouldn't release a graphics-enhanced, yet AI-watered-down version, so he shut it down. So, I guess even today, some almost 30 years later, these limitations still exist for the small game producer. Hats off to you and all you've accomplished with the resources you have available. I will continue to monitor your progress.

05-13-2013, 11:46 AM	#6
Riverdome All Star Reserve Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 964	Not speaking for anyone else but I would be shocked if this feature wasn't attempted in a sandbox and for whatever reason failed to work properly. Not a priority for me but I'll be happy when it is properly implemented. Until then certainly something I can live without. __________________ I was at the first OOTP Conference, where were you?..........

05-13-2013, 12:43 PM	#9
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	Do we really need another feature that the AI might screw up in order to make it easier for human players to win. I have no problem accepting that every AI manager has the correct relief pitcher properly warmed up every game. The reality is that such an issue may occur 3-5 times a season IRL. It doesn't affect realism IMO. The following issues do affect realism. The AI still makes way too many curious strategy decisions late in game that directly affect the outcome. Let's fix bunting with a non-pitcher and a runner on 2B and 1 out first. Let's fix the automatic int BB to a weak hitter when you steal 2B late in the game next. Let's fix allowing a journeyman SP to throw 133 pitches into the 8th inning when 5 relief pitchers with way better ratings sit unused. Let's fix the AI 3 SP rule in the playoffs which has each AI team throwing out an 88%-92% rested SP vs my 100% rested SP late in series. It's often the same journeyman who threw 133 pitches 3 days ago while one or two serviceable SP sit in the bullpen not pitching an inning. All of these basic errors make it too easy to win. OK rant over. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

05-13-2013, 10:46 AM	#1
njherdfan Bat Boy Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 12	Question about opposing team's bullpen- in game I was managing a game today, and I was trying to set up the ideal lefty/righty situation. The computer had a lefty pitching, so I went with a right handed pinch hitter, but first I looked on their "substitutions" page and it didn't say they had anyone warming up in their pen. Once I subbed in my righty PH, they put a righty pitcher in. My question is this: can I see if the other team is warming someone up in their pen, or should I just assume they put the pitcher in cold once I put in a righty hitter.

05-13-2013, 10:56 AM	#2
BusterKing Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,433	The AI never uses warm up and their pitcher come in the game NOT cold like the human controlled team does if you have the warm up rule activated. That's the reason many are not using the warm up rule for ootp. It is actually amazing that we are on the 14th. version of this game and an important feature like this one in baseball is totally lacking in this gaming simulation. Many complained about it every year and it is always being ignored. We are always given the excuse that is it too complicated to be programmed properly.

05-13-2013, 11:15 AM	#3
dkgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,152	have you ever thought that instead of that being an excuse, it's the truth? or does your expertise in programming tell you otherwise and you know exactly how to code it?

05-13-2013, 11:39 AM	#5
BusterKing Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,433	I'm not saying that it isn't the truth, I am saying that's what we are being told. I never implied that it was a lie and I have no idea how you came up with that assumption.

05-14-2013, 10:25 AM	#13
oldtimey Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 60	The scenario that the OP described is why I did not order the current game and will not consider this game in any future editions until this is fixed. It is a gamebreaker for me. If I can't look up and see my opponent's bullpen activity, or if I can't be notified by play-by-play who is warming up when they get up, it sucks the realism and drama right out of the game. The relief pitcher cannot appear from nowhere and into a crucial spot in a baseball game. That is unnacceptable to me and is why I am enjoying an alternative for my baseball simming/playing jones when I have the time. I have time in the summer for one day-to-day sim of MLB, and because of the above, OOTP 14 ain't it.

05-14-2013, 09:21 PM	#16
oldtimey Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 60	Is there an official response from the development team on this issue? I personally have jumped into threads and have started threads about this since OOTP 12, and I don't remember ever reading a response from the folks who make this game happen. I know I am a nooby with a "small sample size" of OOTP experience and I represent just one lonely decedent who will not spend another dime on this product until this major part of the MLB experience is fixed. I just would like to know if I should stop wishing, hoping, praying. All you have to tell me is you can't/won't/don't feel the need/ to fix this and I'm done. Otherwise, you have a wonderful product and all success to you.

05-14-2013, 09:59 PM	#17
olivertheorem All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,919	I don't know the exact thread, but I'm pretty sure Markus has explicitly said that it's a PITA to get coded well. I know Wolf commented that other games have done it, which is true. I saw many examples cited in another thread on the subject. But, it was also commented that those games practically always had problems with implementation. It is one thing to just have it in the game. It is quite another to have it in a realistic way. Given other widely known roster quirks of the OOTP AI as it currently exists, I find it highly doubtful that said AI could use a bullpen even 10% as well as a human if it had to warm them up too. This is not due to any fault of Markus' or any lack in his skill as a programmer. It is due to the exteme difficulty in getting a computer to think like a human, especially for a single programmer with a small budget.

05-15-2013, 11:15 AM	#19
oldtimey Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 60	I am not a coder, or a programmer, but I do have experience writing script and producing music for PC games, mostly sports, before the days of Windows, that were DOS-based. I remember being asked to do scripts that were home-team related, generic in scope, some not so verbose, others very verbose, that the player could chose which style from a menu. I also remember one programmer telling me that, as the title we were working on was progressing to a graphics version of a former text-based sim, He felt that the future of computer/video sports would lead to pretty pictures (graphics), but dumb AI. In his opinion, the more memory the sim demanded for graphics, the more memory it would take away from the sim's AI. So, with this sim, if you chose on the menu that you wanted the most verbose play descriptions and you wanted to play vs cpu, or cpu vs cpu, the graphics would be limited during your game to compensate. This was a long time ago. This particular game never made it past prototype because the developers were paying a lot to convert from text-based to what they called a graphics-enhanced version. The text-based version was flawless in it's execution of dugout strategy, play-by-play relevance and engaging day-to day realism, but all from a monochrome monitor with a simple baseball diamond with names where the players would be in position. This was also done by the dice-roll method, which we today call one-pitch mode. I remember how frustrating is was watching other companies with much bigger budgets releasing games with all the glitz of the graphics of the day (VGA), only to have AI always be shortchanged in the process. The head of the company I worked for wouldn't release a graphics-enhanced, yet AI-watered-down version, so he shut it down. So, I guess even today, some almost 30 years later, these limitations still exist for the small game producer. Hats off to you and all you've accomplished with the resources you have available. I will continue to monitor your progress.