When is the Online Manual going to be updated?

[AstaSyneri]

Hi!

Trying to setup a "total conversion" in OOTP 14 I feel very much hindered by the online manual.

Apparently Markus just copies over the manual from the last edition. There are still references to cities.txt and nations.txt, some parts are missing entirely (storylines for once), etc.

Development team, please updated the manual so new players like me actually have a chance to understand the intricacies of this game!

Having no information is almost better than having wrong information .

[Gil Thorp]

I wish they'd bring back the old 300 page PDF manuals that actually explained how the game works. I find the online manuals essentially useless.

[Bluenoser]

When they moved to an online manual, they took the existing PDF and just kept upgrading. So there's no difference in the manuals.

The difference is in the complexity of the game now, compared to 6.5 and back. There is so much more to cover now.

Big thing to remember, the manual is done on a voluntary basis for the most part. That's the biggest reason for slow updates. OOTP Developments doesn't currently have the resources to keep it updated. A pain I know, but it is what it is right now.

Hopefully the game, and most importantly sales, continue to grow to the point that they can hire someone to update the manual each year.

The thing is though, a lot of the manual is still good, and the things that aren't in it are easily found by posting questions on the forums. There is a multitude of highly experienced users always willing to help. I've owned every version of this game and I still have questions each year. This forum has been worth its weight in gold when it comes to getting your questions answered.

[Gil Thorp]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

When they moved to an online manual, they took the existing PDF and just kept upgrading. So there's no difference in the manuals.

My memory must be bad or I'm missing it in the online manual, but it seems like the old manuals had more info on things like PCM's, league totals etc.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by Gil Thorp

My memory must be bad or I'm missing it in the online manual, but it seems like the old manuals had more info on things like PCM's, league totals etc.

You could well be correct, as it's quite possible it was rewritten in the current format. A lot of changes happened over the years, especially when the new engine was introduced.

Evolution, it's hard to keep up some days.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by Gil Thorp

My memory must be bad or I'm missing it in the online manual, but it seems like the old manuals had more info on things like PCM's, league totals etc.

It does take some digging (like search, which is pretty good, and clicking on the folder tree to expand the contents), but you can find some good information in the online manual. Using your two examples, see here:

Traditional OOTP Player Creation Modifiers

League Totals and Modifiers

But to Bluenoser's point, yes, there is much room for improvement that should (will?) come in the coming months between versions 14 and 15. Look at the Storylines section; the folder tree shows what they want to talk about, but it's just not there yet.

[AstaSyneri]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

The thing is though, a lot of the manual is still good[..]

Not really. Point in case:
Out of the Park Baseball Manual

And while the community usually is very helpful, it doesn't appear as if it is "in" right now (I have a post open in Mods Names etc.) that is impatiently sitting there, waiting for takers (oh, no, that's me!).

As for the argument to find more buyers - I find the quality (or rather lack thereof) of the manual rather detrimental to the cause. Not finding information (like that on storylines - which I would really like to have!) is one thing, but plain wrong information (like that on nations.txt) really wastes my time - the precious free time I'd rather spend playing the game.

It's a bit like using today's Word with a manual for Word 97. Yes, you can still write, but you are going to have a hard time using all the features.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by AstaSyneri

Not really. Point in case:
Out of the Park Baseball Manual

And while the community usually is very helpful, it doesn't appear as if it is "in" right now (I have a post open in Mods Names etc.) that is impatiently sitting there, waiting for takers (oh, no, that's me!).

As for the argument to find more buyers - I find the quality (or rather lack thereof) of the manual rather detrimental to the cause. Not finding information (like that on storylines - which I would really like to have!) is one thing, but plain wrong information (like that on nations.txt) really wastes my time - the precious free time I'd rather spend playing the game.

It's a bit like using today's Word with a manual for Word 97. Yes, you can still write, but you are going to have a hard time using all the features.

Yes, really - you cite one example and say not really. I know for a fact that well over 50% of it is still applicable.

Maybe a lack of manual is detrimental, maybe it isn't. At the end of the day, OOTP cannot afford to hire someone to do the job, so it remains voluntary. Maybe you have some spare time you could offer to help?

I replied to your question on the Mods Forum. Whether you think it's "in" or not, I really don't care. Most people (note use of the word most) are very helpful on these forums. They are under no obligation to do so, but do it because it builds a solid community. A little patience and appreciation will get you a lot further than resorting to snide remarks about how you have to wait for help.

Feel free to email OOTP Developments with your complaints, please refrain from insulting people who give freely of their time to help others.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by AstaSyneri

Not really. Point in case:
Out of the Park Baseball Manual

And while the community usually is very helpful, it doesn't appear as if it is "in" right now (I have a post open in Mods Names etc.) that is impatiently sitting there, waiting for takers (oh, no, that's me!).

As for the argument to find more buyers - I find the quality (or rather lack thereof) of the manual rather detrimental to the cause. Not finding information (like that on storylines - which I would really like to have!) is one thing, but plain wrong information (like that on nations.txt) really wastes my time - the precious free time I'd rather spend playing the game.

It's a bit like using today's Word with a manual for Word 97. Yes, you can still write, but you are going to have a hard time using all the features.

Remember, too, that OOTPD is a two (and a half?) person band which depends upon often volatile (as in coming and going) volunteers for certain things like manual writing. So if the manual lags behind game versions, I'm not happy about it but I'm not going to kick as much as if this were EA Sports.

[elfsutton]

Shoot, Id consider updating the Online Manuel all the time, wouldnt cost OOTPD much, say free OOTP for life??? I could do that. It would be a honor and what, they pretty much get free help.

[AstaSyneri]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

Yes, really - you cite one example and say not really. I know for a fact that well over 50% of it is still applicable.

Maybe a lack of manual is detrimental, maybe it isn't. At the end of the day, OOTP cannot afford to hire someone to do the job, so it remains voluntary. Maybe you have some spare time you could offer to help?

I replied to your question on the Mods Forum. Whether you think it's "in" or not, I really don't care. Most people (note use of the word most) are very helpful on these forums. They are under no obligation to do so, but do it because it builds a solid community. A little patience and appreciation will get you a lot further than resorting to snide remarks about how you have to wait for help.

Feel free to email OOTP Developments with your complaints, please refrain from insulting people who give freely of their time to help others.

Ah, I apologize if somebody (you) felt insulted - that certainly was not my intention (but sometimes seems inevitable on the web).

As to your points:

I only cited one example, because for once there was another glaring one posted above (storylines) and it is so easy to find more. Just flick through the manual, you'll even find references to OOPT 9.

AFAICS it never says anywhere in the manual that the manual is written by volunteers, so how should I know?`

As for the people being "in" - I hoped to bring across the tongue-in-cheek, I actually don't expect people to jump on any post in the most obscure parts of the forum ;-).

Thank you for your post in the Mods section - but unfortunately those two posts I already know and they don't exactly help me in modeling my universe (wrapping my head around the "not having a continent, or nations, or cities" is the hard part). It looks like I am down to trial and error - which in turn reduces the limited time I have available (being a working dad of three).

Yes, it is my impression exactly that there are many very helpful members on this board, btw!

So while my spare time is very limited, I was planning to put together my experience in building a very different world once I am through. At this point that stage seems far, far away, though. IMHO it would be ridiculous for me to attempt to write the manual.

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Remember, too, that OOTPD is a two (and a half?) person band which depends upon often volatile (as in coming and going) volunteers for certain things like manual writing. So if the manual lags behind game versions, I'm not happy about it but I'm not going to kick as much as if this were EA Sports.

Nah, I don't intend to kick them. I love quality-oriented Indies and this particular product (and I am not even a baseball fan). I just want a decent manual that helps me enjoy the game more deeply. Not generally too much to ask for, is it?

But then I am one of those people who actually sat down and enjoyed reading those old paper manuals on Master of Magic or M1 Tank Platoon...

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by AstaSyneri

Ah, I apologize if somebody (you) felt insulted - that certainly was not my intention (but sometimes seems inevitable on the web).

As to your points:

I only cited one example, because for once there was another glaring one posted above (storylines) and it is so easy to find more. Just flick through the manual, you'll even find references to OOPT 9.

AFAICS it never says anywhere in the manual that the manual is written by volunteers, so how should I know?`

As for the people being "in" - I hoped to bring across the tongue-in-cheek, I actually don't expect people to jump on any post in the most obscure parts of the forum ;-).

Thank you for your post in the Mods section - but unfortunately those two posts I already know and they don't exactly help me in modeling my universe (wrapping my head around the "not having a continent, or nations, or cities" is the hard part). It looks like I am down to trial and error - which in turn reduces the limited time I have available (being a working dad of three).

Yes, it is my impression exactly that there are many very helpful members on this board, btw!

So while my spare time is very limited, I was planning to put together my experience in building a very different world once I am through. At this point that stage seems far, far away, though. IMHO it would be ridiculous for me to attempt to write the manual.



Nah, I don't intend to kick them. I love quality-oriented Indies and this particular product (and I am not even a baseball fan). I just want a decent manual that helps me enjoy the game more deeply. Not generally too much to ask for, is it?

But then I am one of those people who actually sat down and enjoyed reading those old paper manuals on Master of Magic or M1 Tank Platoon...

You know because I told you in my very first reply, yet you still chose to make your snide remarks anyway.

If all you're interested in is nit picking the manual and OOTP, go ahead. I still stand by my comment - Well over 50% of the manual is still applicable.

When you're done being a sourpuss about the state of the manual, volunteer some of your time to improve it. Then you can come here and bash it all you like. When the time has arrived that you've actually contributed something besides a complaint, maybe I'll listen. Until such time, you can look elsewhere for help AFAIC.

[goalieump413]

Not to stray too far from the narrative, but what about turning the online manual into a wiki manual, update-able by Markus and select veteran players? That way, if and when game updates occur, a fast response wiki update can keep people in the know faster.

Also, wiki's are easy to setup on any website, and have built in search functions, so Markus and company wouldn't have to create a lot of inline links.